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My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:

Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005

With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:

ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)

NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)

Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)

rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)

cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)

parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)

lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)

McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.

butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)

pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.

classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)

Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:



PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.

Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.

Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?

Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.

 It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.

Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.

Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.

Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.

Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.

Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.

My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.

That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!


jays_audio_lab

Showing 15 responses by lemonhaze

lemonhaze
423 posts
 
Hi whitecamaross, fascinating journey which I eagerly follow. Have read it all. Don't let someone like dep14 talk down the importance of a power cable or any cable for that matter. I am sure he means well.

He, like many others, can not understand how a few feet of expensive cable at the end of miles of supply cable can make a difference. A reasonable assumption to the uninformed.
But it is not the last bit of cable connected to your amp. The way your amp sees it, it is the first bit of cable it connects to. And rather an important one as this is how it derives it's power. There is a lot more to it than that. Tons of info on the internet.

The quality of components you are dealing with call for and will do justice to quality cables.
I politely encourage you, when the dust settles, to experiment with some seriously good ones. Hey its easier than changing out mammoth sized speakers.
lemonhaze
423 posts
 
Hi WC,I notice your aversion to subwoofers, your understandable thinking being if you pay big bucks for a speaker it should do it all without needing separate bass augmentation.Consideration needs to be given to the fact that where you position your speakers for the best sense of space, soundstage, depth etc. will not be the best position to provide bass. If you were to position the speakers where bass sounded best would probably not image well, especially if one speaker was in a corner and the other in the middle of the opposite wall.
Separating these two duties has great benefits. A relatively modest looking bookshelf speaker with good subs can sound astonishing.But they must be the right subs. Servo driven open baffle subs have been mentioned and I endorse that. Simply the finest bass reproduction I have heard.There is more to it than just added bass. It is uncanny how the midrange and even the treble improves!Also OB bass correctly positioned will not overload even a small room.Brian Ding at Rythmic does servo bass. Very clean, very detailed and informative sound. I will never use anything else. Its exciting to listen to.
If you use multiple subs and a moderate amount of bass traps and first reflection point absorbers (perhaps in your new listening room) you will not need to resort to EQ.This sounds like one of those adds, yes there is still more. If you high pass your main speakers say around 60 to 80 Hz sound improves further because vibration of the main speakers is reduced and less power is required from the power amp/s. This is particularly noticeable with tubes where you are removing 20Hz and lower from saturating the output transformers.In addition to servo OB, introducing an extra sealed box servo sub can provide slam. Just experiment and flavour to taste.The Magico's would respond well to this treatment and I would love to witness and take pics of your expressions before and after and post them here for all to see  :)

lemonhaze
423 posts
 
Hi WC,
Do you still have your Simaudio 860 for sale? Please say yes
lemonhaze
423 posts
 
@viber6: You said Michael Fremer claims that the cartridge is the most important in a vinyl set up. Take note, if you haven't misquoted him he's wrong.
Consider this: Lets take a pure 10Khz sine wave on a vinyl test record; this means the stylus must change direction  20000 times in one second!  Well that's relatively easy, wait till there is some music playing, now there is bass, drums, guitar etc. That little chunk of diamond is being violently buffeted side to side, up and down and in every other direction which can only send shock waves into the tonearm.
Now that kind of shock would never be noticed by insensitive human fingers but what about the bearings in the tonearm? Any play in the bearings would be loosing information and generally creating havoc with the delicate job of transducing the info embedded in the vinyl grooves.
Then the turntable bearing will also contribute to the confusion. Sure many things come into play like resonances in the tonearm, turntable platter or plinth, motor etc.
So it should now be apparent that priority must be given in the following order:
1/  turntable2/  tonearm3/  cartridge
Put another way, a great turntable with an equally great tonearm with a mediocre cartridge with the correct compliance will happily outperform a lesser turntable/arm combo with the very best cartridge.

But don't take my word for it. Easy enough to try yourself. Moral of the long story is not to mindlessly take the word of some 'expert' and then regurgitate such on the forums

lemonhaze
423 posts
 
Hi WC,
If the Lampizator uses a 5U4G for rectification you can drop in a 5R4GY. It draws less current for the filament so no problems there. I used these in rotation and like them both but used the later more. The 5R4GY has a slightly lighter, more detailed sound. Not expensive so pick a few different  
lemonhaze
423 posts
 
@ vibrator6  Dear vibes I admire you and we are going to miss you here. We will miss your generously and selflessly self appointed position as audio consultant, well more audio insultant IMO. We will miss your incessant verbal flatulence riding roughshod over all other posters.
You said you will be closing the book which I find admirable. Try at the end of this chapter to retain some semblance of dignity and exit quietly .Somewhere out there audio heaven awaits you and you will then be able to look down on all us ignorant, bootless and unhorsed masses suffering dull systems.
lemonhaze
423 posts
 
Hi WC,
I have noted the response to your asking for acoustic advice. I am afraid that most of it so far is not only useless but will make things worse.
To treat a room, and all rooms need treatment, the three axes need absorption to reduce reverb/echo. So there needs to be absorption between the front and back walls, between the two side walls and between the ceiling and the floor to avoid standing waves and modal ringing.

Regarding the floor treatment, a carpet is not very effective because it is thin relative to the wavelengths of sound and it lies on the floor with no important airgap. It is a mistake to think that it will reduce floor bounce. It has a narrow range of absorption so wall to wall carpeting will leave you with a suck out at a certain narrow range of frequencies. Yes you have a hole in the music because that narrow freq. range is absorbed and gone from the music.
The same will happen with drapes if too many are indiscriminately used and will be in a freq. range close to that of a carpet.  BAD  Where drapes are used not for decoration but acoustically then I suggest using a 3-rail curtain rail with 3 curtains, one per rail. The curtains will then be spaced at different distances from the wall and absorb over a wider range of freq.
I read your post saying that you do not like ceiling treatment but it is the only effective way to sort out the wall/floor problem. An open box frame  about 4" high by 8ft by 12ft suspended a few inches below the ceiling and filled with Owens Corning 703 will produce a broadband absorber and will fully sort out that axis.
If this is covered in an attractive fabric it will look smart and purposeful. Looks even nicer if some LED strip lighting is arrayed around the top of the frame.
Floor bounce is not really that much of a problem when you consider that your ears are always the same distance from the floor, unless drunk and can't stand up, and your ear brain relationship has the ability to deal with this issue!
Stopping for some good Colombian coffee now, will be back with more.
lemonhaze
423 posts
 
I typed a long follow-up but lost it somehow. Will try and keep this short.

  Next is to stop sound bouncing uncontrolled between the side walls. Absorption panels built similar to the ceiling absorber are good at the first reflection points. The OC703 is supplied in sheets of 2ft by 4ft so this is a good size to build them and cover in a pretty fabric that the wife chooses. 2 panels per side usually do it.
  The third axis is between front and back wall. Dispersion is good here with some smaller absorption panels used to fine tune the room.
  Then the bass. All rooms NEED bass traps and lots. Can't overdo bass traps so don't be shy. BUT they must be proper basstraps. Google DIY superchunk bass traps. Anything less is a waste. Somebody posted links to some silly foam things that can not possibly absorb the long wavelengths we are dealing with. Bass traps being broadband absorbers will also absorb higher freq. possibly making the room too dead so plastic sheeting or similar can be used to cover the outside of the traps which will reflect the upper freq. but still work for the bass.
viber6 mentioned this being an art which it is not. Measurement is your friend and free downloads like Holm Impulse or REW will provide graphic results of treatment by way of cumulative spectral decay known as waterfall plots. It is possible to measure the room before and after treatment and overlay the plots and see the results. I use Omnimic from Parts Express.
  While I do not know the size of your room the aim here is to achieve aT60 across all freq. The CSD's will show which freq. require more or less absorption. This is the time it takes for sound to decay by 60dB. Just science and not black art.
  Bass freq. do the most damage when thundering around the room. Some reflected bass will combine constructively or destructively producing peaks and nulls, the nulls being the worst. Those are bass notes missing and can't be EQ'd back. Not even by a Rane  :) The peaks and their harmonics can be tamed by EQ BUT the Rane can't control the overlong decay.
  Bass builds up in corners so that is where to place the traps. The front wall's 2 corners where it meets the side walls is a good place to start. Run them vertically from floor to ceiling. But any corners work. In addition to the front 2 try one running horizontally on the back wall where it meets the ceiling.
  Dear WC I urge you to give this careful thought. If you are pressed for time and do not wish to build or measure get advice from a pro. Maybe one in your area or contact this fella.
http://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html
  Please read some or all of this because no amount of cables or component change will bring more to the party. The transformation really does need to be experienced to understand the huge amount of fun, detail and decongestion.Winer also has a forum where you can read about results from people who have seen, or is it heard the light.
  Regards and enjoy the Lampi. I heard Fikus' Gen 4 way back and thought it was great. My friend whose ears I trust has just changed to a Denafrips Terminator from a Chord Dave.


 


lemonhaze
423 posts
 
@ bigddesign3
@ron17Thanks for the acknowledgement re room treatment.

I can understand when someone has really good sound finding it difficult or impossible to conceptualise  the room playing such a big role in the resultant sound. To the point where a relatively modest system in a properly treated room will provide a musically more rewarding and enjoyable experience than a mega system in an untreated room.

WC sounds like you are just having too much fun. For unadulterated and effortless dynamics to outdo the speakers you now have would be to install a full horn system. Needs a big room though.


Of general interest the great plains audio Altec 288-L compression driver measures 115.7!dB. A 4 watt amp driving this will hit you with 121.7dB. Altec has a multicell horn that will accept 4 model 290E mounted and can deliver 82.5dB half a mile away. I wonder if the neighbours would complain. Who needs a power amp, could drive these things with a preamp LOL




lemonhaze
423 posts
 
WC, that was posted before I had finished. Was saying try a few as they all sound a little different. The Western Electric 274B is reputed to be the best but because of the crazy price I have never tried one.
A question for you. My treasured Mark Levinson 23.5 has developed a loud hum and I need to consider replacing it. It is ancient. I have earmarked either Sim audio 860 or the Plinius. Any suggestion. I know you sold the 860
lemonhaze
423 posts
 
Hi WC,  My system when its working consists of Oppo, Wadia15 DAC, self-built tube pre amp, ML23.5 power amp and OB speakers which I built using cheap 15" driver with concentrically mounted compression driver, efficiency at about 95dB.

I say 'when its working' because the ML is now out of the system. I have recently moved country and am busy renovating my little Irish cottage, installing proper fireplace and attending to room treatments.

@ron17 requested pics of the room but not only do I not know how to post a pic, the room actually looks like a construction site.

When the living room is sorted out I will turn my attention to designing a crossover for a pair of Tannoy MG 15's which will be used OB with OB servo bass.

Regarding the Wadia15 it uses the wonderful Burr-Brown PCM63 dac chip and only plays redbook but does it better than most. Anybody who needs a backup dac or for second system should consider any unit using the PCM63 or 1702. Completely and embarrassingly destroyed my Bryston dac



lemonhaze
423 posts
 
Oh dear, the dreaded V6 is back and firing on all cylinders. This thread was fun again for a short while. Viber I think you are being very inconsiderate.
Brace yourselves one and all for your continued compulsory lectures in all things audio.
lemonhaze
423 posts
 
WC,
Try Mighty Sam McClain for some great blues. All his stuff is great but my favourite is 'Give It Up To Love' especially #2  Was voted album of the month by some mag. Take him for a loud spin.


@ ricevs You sound like you have experience with feet for amps. Care to share? Think its on topic on an amp thread.
lemonhaze
423 posts
 
Hi WC, regarding using the long or short wall, as was mentioned first by psnyder149, the difference is not worth bothering with. The room modes will develop regardless so use the wall most convenient.

Unused speakers standing idle will influence the sound, their effect being less noticeable in rooms with little or no room treatment because the sound is too lively. With proper acoustic treatment the idle speaker’s influence is noticeable. What happens is room pressure drives the passive speaker cones and their back-EMF charges the crossovers which indiscriminately re-release energy out of time and phase causing confusion/congestion. To find out how much the effect is, short out the speaker terminals on any unused speakers which will damp cone movement. Oh and just because your fingers can't detect a cone vibrating at low volume your ears can. This is not huge and you can live with it.

I see some, well intentioned I’m sure, recommend EQ. Neither Rane nor RoomPerfect can sort out a bad room. A bad room is one which has no bass traps, absorption panels or diffusers resulting in sound taking a long time to decay. The industry standard is 60dB known as T60. Different frequencies will decay at different rates so lets say you have 80Hz and 150Hz and 400Hz etc. etc. with long delay time and some frequencies with peaks and nulls, all EQ can do is to attenuate the peaks and boost the nulls BUT it can not reduce the echo, it is still there only lower in amplitude.

Now take a null, that music has been cancelled out and is missing or a partial null which EQ tries to boost but nulls can be around 20dB deep. This is mostly at low freq. and few amps have that amount of reserve power. You see the folly. However if the room is treated and all freqs. fall within the required decay time and there is no modal peaks or nulls then yes EQ can correct for uneven response. I do not believe any of your gear has response anomalies!

Viber6 said because you have a bunch of chairs less treatment is needed? which is now guesswork. This is simply a case of measuring the room, easy to do, and you will know what to do. I can go on at length but will bore everyone. Let me refer you to a post of mine at the bottom of page 107 and  another on page 108 about ninth down



lemonhaze
423 posts
 
WC, if your room treatment is properly done then your stereo system will sound way way better even if you install your home theater. The big screen and additional speakers will have a small effect but the huge improvement from good acoustics will amaze you. If you get it right you are in for a treat. It will do more for your sound than any power cord.


You are rewarded with great audio turning into an awesome musical performance. Gone is the overlong decay across the full frequency spectrum revealing detail and structure you did not know was there. The bass traps will be smoothing out the room response , and where you had nulls before you will now be hearing the bass that had previously been cancelled. You will hear all the detail of a double bass, the snare drum, hi-hat, ride cymbal, floor tom, it will all come together and the amazing thing is that music that that did not quite get you before might now have some merit.


I have an idea for how to remove the effect of a big TV screen, will describe it later. Gotta go.

@grey9hound  I have read up on RoomPerfect. In a hard surfaced room clapping your hands produces a slap echo. Please tell me how an electronic device can remove the echo.
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