My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Wow, things are really getting interesting now! Glad to see this thread back on track and folks contributing their experiences. It was the constant commenting by several that was really dragging down this most popular thread on the 'Gon. Glad for it to be reigned in. Most of all, no disrespect to anyone and thank you WC for continuing to share your journey.
WC, can't wait to read about the synergy created by your new components and wire. I hope all your hunches are found to be superb.
Thank you all. A lot is going to be taking place: the lampizator, the Rowland 535, the wireworld platinum 8 speaker cables, the Virgo 3 preamp. Constellation was always in my radar but it became a target the minute I heard it with Logans. Took me 6 days after coming back from the show to strike a deal. I might review the cheaper constellation for you all too. Gryphon is still on my radar but it’s a very controlled line so it’s not easy. Let’s get back on this bus people and ride again, cheers !
Irv's room at AXPONA was the best I'd heard MLs at a show, solid move getting in the bigger brother Constellations. I'm anxious to hear what the Rowland 535 gives up to the best as $6K is on the radar, not the Centaur level kit.
I don't know if that's living ron .I've been to over 2K classic concerts in the last 50+years , usually in middle-hall seats , am 80+ and hear fine , I really hope your condition improves . Happy Easter .
Thank you schubert. I really shouldn't have said 'that's living'. I was responding to dep14's post about how much fun loud rock concerts are (which I totally agree with). I just had too much fun and ended up damaging my hearing. BTW I think the difference between a classical music concert and a typical rock concert is about 20db.
Alright men, the lampi and blocks have been playing music for 2 hours. I am now on the couch with a Red Bull in my hand and I’m going to embark on a 2 hour listening session. As I Type this, I already hear as if the wall behind the speakers has been removed. The sound is the deepest I’ve heard by far. Stay tuned, I’ll update in about 30 min. HERE WE GO.
Ok, here are my initial impressions of the lampizator with kr242 tubes and fully balanced outputs: (only 3 hours of playtime on this dac) 1. Amazing delicacy in the music. Things sound romantic and inviting 2. Insane amount of detail retrieval. I heard an incredible amount of detail that was absent with the ref10 3. Soundstage is narrower than the ref10 but there’s more focus and a sense of space behind the speakers. 4. Less oomph in the lower registers than with the ref10.
Right now, those are my thoughts with only 3 hours of playtime. We will see what happens to the sound of these tubes with more playtime. I can certainly say that it is winning the battle vs the ref10 for me. Tonight is also the last time I get to play with the block audio Monos. I will miss them dearly and in my book, they are still the best amps I’ve owned. That said, the show must go on. If any of you ever get a chance to get these amps, DO NOT hesitate by any means. They’ve trumped any amplifier I’ve had here and that is A LOT of amplifiers.
Whoa! That Lampi is to die for! I can’t wait to hear what you have to say about all the new stuff! I hope the Rowlands get some time in the system. I am borrowing some Merrill Veritas at the moment, and am quite impressed.
Block audios are officially packed up and ready to travel to the west coast. I cringe as I think about it but I hope constellation brings me yet more synergy since I’m doing the amp and preamp.
I haven’t really done a real a/b comparison because I sent the nordost to get terminated with spades. I was sick and tired of running into amps that don’t take banana plugs such as the Rowlands, momentum integrated. Once it comes back, I’m going to have the dealer burn them in for another 100 hours. At this point they will have about 400 hours total.
The Lampizator is so much better looking in GOLD!! WOW!! And with XLRs now!!
Me thinks that the Lampizator could use some type of special shelf and vibration isolation for the unit. I would call the look of the DAC "Majestic".
Will it sound better with both the Constellation Amp/Preamp combination? I would speculate yes. Possible better bottom end and body with the whole bunch. Only testing will tell.
At the show, I was noticing how many high end systems were using Critical Mass Solutions stands and shelves systems. They are expensive but I know they do a great job... although it has to be said, I have never A/B'd them with other high end isolation/vibration absorption systems.
“Critical Mass Systems racks are not isolation systems as they do not prevent the transmission of vibration. Rather, the filter system manages the flow of vibration into and out of the component as well as the rack architecture supporting it. Our proprietary internal vibration filtering materials and rack architecture operate together to mitigate vibration in the floor, the rack, the shelf and the component at the same time. This ensures even energy transfer throughout the rack architecture and filter system so your component can retain the “sound” that was intended, revealing the inner detail of the music.”
The Critical Mass Systems rack looks way cool. But if it was up to me, you know, in a competitive situation, I would place isolation devices underneath components on the Critical Mass System. Perhaps a Minus K or two. Better safe than sorry.
We have experimented with many of the best vibration isolation devices and so far we have found the Critical Mass products to offer the most consistant and most recongizable set of improvements.
They are not as expensive as people think as you can use the Center Stage footers instead of a full plaform.
The Footers act as booth isolators and vibrational drains and are one of the very few devices that accomplish both tasks.
We started with doing just the amplifier and then quickly added sets to the preamp and dac.
A single set of four can make a huge improvment in a system and in our opinion as much of an upgrade as moving from one level of component to another.
We head a much more three dimensional sound stage, greater dynamics, the image became much more wrap around and the entire noise floor droped.
Never head all of those attributes in any of the other devices which we tried which included HRS and Stillpoints.
The Critical Mass products takes a system to the next level.
Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Critical Mass dealers
Does anybody read ? WC very recently indicated he has no intention, at this time, to sell the Neos. However, in your favor, keithr, with wc, we never know, lol.
At your age being confused is quite normal behavior. Next year you will be saying "Who is WCSS...Who is this Viber guy...Why am I here??" Embrace it!! :)
My Neoliths are alive and well. If I sell them, you all would know just like I did with the block audios. Right now, there isn’t any desire to replace. I don’t want to buy speakers without hearing them first and being blown away. In addition to that, selling a pair of Neoliths is not going to be something that will be easy due to the size and obviously the price. There are a lot of buyers looking to eat filet mignon and wanting to pay beef jerky prices. I will say that I did have someone offer me ridiculous money for them and I ended up telling him that I rather use them as outdoor speakers by the pool area and play Mickey Mouse songs before I sell them for what he offered. The only woofer,tweeter speaker id contemplate is the sonus faber aida v2 but the prices are ridiculous for them. I don’t mind trying a woofer/tweeter speaker again but I need to be really impressed. I’m not about to pack the Neoliths and spend a good 5 hours doing so just to gamble on any other speaker.
I am surprised that some people who regularly read your thread are clueless to so many things. Just in the last several posts, in fact ( greyhound, bigdesign ). I am assuming the drinking started early.
I have been following this Thread for some time now and it certainly has been quite the Journey for whitecamaross. I am amazed that he sold the Block Audio Amps but this is certainly his Journey. I truly thought that his Journey was over.
I am turning to you good people for some advice at a different price point spectrum. Very pleased with my System which is Turntable based and consists of the following;
Audio Research Classic 60 Amp.
Audio Research LS5 MKIII Pre-Amp.
Herron VTPH-2A Phono Stage.
ProAc Response 2.5 Speakers.
I have owned the ARC Classic 60 Amp since New it has been that long. Scott Frankland formerly of MFA has changed all of the important Caps.
Fearful due to Age that I need to research a Replacement Amp in either Solid State or Tube form but here is the catch; It needs to fit in a Rack so the Dimensions should be 19" Wide Max X 7" (Give or take High) X 16" Deep.
ARC LS5 MKIII has Balanced Outputs but I can go to Single Ended since there is a Switch on the MK III for Balanced or SE. I am running it SE at present to the ARC Classic 60.
My musical tastes are Classic Rock and Folk with some Classical.
In my research the one that has caught my eye is the Pass XA25 but I am truly not sure how this would be with the ProAc’s. I would hate to buy this Blind. I also liked the Luxman 509X very much but I really do not need an Integrated. These two Models are mentioned to give an idea of Price Range also.
AR Classic 60 - wow! Unfortunately we're now showing our age :-( Purchased one brand new and enjoyed it for years, replaced it with an AR V-70 (newer balanced input version). What an amplifier! Imaging fairytale, well balanced - a little flabby in the bass but still a stunner! (for it's price) Igor from Woodbridge Stereo (now Woodbridge Stereo / Video) would talk about this amplifier, he also shared how to quasi bi-amp the Classic 60 - bi-wire it with the 4 ohm taps connected to one set of speaker terminals and the 8 ohm taps connected to the other set of speaker terminals. This was speaker dependent and I can't remember if a common (brass screw) connector on the back of the Classic 60 was used. It did help slightly, very slightly. If I remember correctly I used them with a pair of B & W 804 Matrix speakers - custom stands which made a huge improvement. I digress with you reminding me of years past. From the AR tube amplifiers I went to Threshold and then to Pass. Used a Pass Aleph 0s with a pair of Aerial 10T speakers with great results. This combo wasn't a giant killer but I never really missed anything that left me wanting. I eventually used a Pass XA-30.5 with a pair of Sasha I speakers before our current XA-200.5 amplifiers. This little 30-5 amplifier is such an over achiever, puts out 30 class A watts and goes just over 200 watts A/B. Anyone who heard it, when compared to our X-250.5 amplifier ALWAY chose the 30.5. Audiophiles, music lovers or casual visitors - the 30.5 amplifier made a dramatic, life like presentation that was immediately recognizable! Many of the qualities of the Classic 60 but with better bass. And, no - it didn't quite match the reach out and touch 3D imaging of the Classic 60 but it wasn't too far behind yet it is a much better spatially balanced amplifier with clearer, distinguished images. Your 86 db ProAc speakers shouldn't be an issue. Get a used one priced right and you could get out of it at no cost if you don't like it. But that's just a disclaimer - if the rest of your system is up to it, you'll enjoy it for many years!
Day 1 of Lampizator pacific fully balanced going into the Rowland 535: 1. Less muscularity than with block audios 2. Excellent detail with black backgrounds 3. Great separation 4. Narrower soundstage when compared to the Ref10 with block audios 5. Intimate sound with great sparkle even at low volumes 6. Longer decays than with ref10
The dac has about 5 hours of use by now. The Rowland 535 is fully broken in since it is a few months old. Right now, things do not sound as engaging as with my previous combination. It has clarity and detail in spades but it misses to lock me in my seat. It is a weird phenomenon but My instinct says to give the dac far more time. Could it be the KR 242 tubes ? The class d sound from the rowland? We shall see what happens over time.
That quasi bi - amping, today, is referred to as bi - wiring, as described above. WC, Everything is different. No ARC preamp in the system, or, the 535s are not in the same league as the Block Audios. As it is the current system is just not as inviting / engaging as before. The Lampi might improve some, but...……..just imo.
WC, It is interesting how you speak of longer decays, but never " attack ". Are the decays you speak of, of the " spatial " qualities of the music, or the " rhythmic " qualities of the musicians ? I hope I am not sounding like, well, you know who......
Mrdecibel: They are of spatial rather than rhythmic. It’s a great sound but right now it makes me scratch my head. The ref10 sounds better with the 535 and simaudio 650d as a dac than using the lampizator straight into the 535 amp.
Bi-wiring is done from the rear speaker posts on an amplifier, even if the amplifier has 2 identical sets of speaker posts for each channel. Audio Research tube amplifiers have connections for 0, 4, 8 and 16 ohm speakers and use a circuit called "partial cathode coupling." The owners manual directs speaker connections to a single set of posts best suited for the speaker being used, bi-wiring to these same posts. http://www.audioresearch.com/ContentsFiles/CL60%20Manual.pdf Quasi Bi-Amping is something slightly different. Sorry to side track your post WC. Human nature - it's why I sometimes regret posting.
mrd, you're killing me. lol! Nature abhors a vacuum, thanks for filling in. See.........many of us are feeling a bit malnourished without our daily dose of vitamin "V", all "things" considered. WC, I'm pushing in a stack of chips (not all in, now) on Constellation. Can't arrive soon enough!
tjassoc, I am sure there was a miscommunication. I have owned some AR tube amps ( had the Classic 30, during a time I owned Khorns ). I connected the dog houses, and top horns, separately, using 2 sets of speaker cables, per channel. No one ( and I was in the industry ) ever used the term quasi bi amping with any of these AR amplifiers, including Audio Research. Today, this is called bi- wiring. I do not remember this had a specific name, at that time. That’s all. Reminds me of the Voltage source / Current source outputs on some Carver amplifiers. If I am still missing something, so be it. I would love to read about quasi bi-amping, whatever that is. Moving on, I am good with getting back to WC and his thread. Always, and, Enjoy ! MrD.
@mrdecibel . I was looking at WCSS system pics .I did not look closely enough to realize that it was not his room .. Sorry... my bad . I also did not expect to see pics of another room in HIS System pics.
I saw those but to buy something that far away and gamble is just too much of a risk. Some of these people don’t take PayPal for a reason and expect wire transfer... hmm no thank you.
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