@bill_k
So what you are saying, is that listening loud is good for the amp. I like what you did there.
So what you are saying, is that listening loud is good for the amp. I like what you did there.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
As usual Bill_k is of course entirely correct in his comments about class A. I would add that the reduction in amplifier temperature that occurs when a class A amp is delivering a lot of power to the speakers is unlikely to be noticeable, for two reasons. First, a class A amp has low efficiency, meaning the ratio of max power out to AC power in. For example the Pass Xs150 monoblocks are rated to provide an output of 150 watts max while drawing an AC input of 700 watts. In that example the amp will never be dissipating (converting into heat) less than 700 - 150 = 550 watts, and will be dissipating significantly more than that most of the time. Second, since speakers convert just a very small fraction of the power that is supplied to them into sound, with the rest of that power being converted into heat, if that amp is supplying 150 watts to a speaker, and therefore dissipating only 550 watts by itself, most of the 150 watts the amp is not dissipating will be converted into heat anyway, by the speaker. In the case of a class A amp, therefore, it is easy to quantify how much power is converted into heat and injected into the room. To a very close approximation it is equal to the amp’s specified power consumption. For a pair of Xs150s that would be 1400 watts; for a pair of Xs300s that would be 1800 watts. Also, btw, how hot an amp may feel if it is touched on its heatsinks or elsewhere has no direct relevance to that, and an amp that may seem cooler to the touch might actually be putting more heat into the room than one that seems to run hotter, depending on the design of the heat sinks and other aspects of the design of the amps. What matters is how much power the amp consumes. To illustrate that point, consider the difference in surface temperature between a 100 watt light bulb and an amp consuming 100 watts. To answer Viber’s question, the output transistors or tubes in a class A design conduct a bias current (which is the current the output devices conduct when no signal is present) that is greater than the maximum amount of output current the amp is designed to be able to deliver. When a signal is present some of that current is diverted to the speaker. In a class AB design the output transistors or tubes just conduct a small bias current, and the presence of a signal causes them to conduct larger amounts of current, most of which is sent to the speaker. Regards, -- Al |
@almarg - Thanks for your very detailed follow-up regarding Class A operation which covers much more than I did. You made an excellent point about the inefficiency of Class A amps so that even when driving speakers at a high level the amps will still run hot. Nice to have your level of technical expertise enlightening participants of this thread! |
Thank you for the nice words about my post, gentlemen. With respect to the last paragraph of my post I should clarify that in the case of class A tube amps having output transformers the output tubes themselves will of course not conduct more current than the amp is capable of supplying to the speaker. The output transformer will step up the current supplied by the output tubes substantially, while stepping down the voltage supplied by the tubes correspondingly, such that the amount of power sent out of the transformer (approximately equal to voltage x current) will be approximately the same as the amount of power sent into it by the tubes (neglecting minor power losses that occur in the transformer itself). Best regards -- Al |
@maplegrovemusic I am planning to try a solid state preamp with my amps and then bring a few more high caliber amps such as the m400 momentum, gryphon, etc. Lasty, I may introduce a new dac such as a msb select or dcs Vivaldi. At this time I’m just trying to let my new amps settle while I’m playing around with powercords. |
WC, Thanks for your comments about the Plinius vs Block. It appears that the superior overall resolution of the Block outweighs its comparatively less sparkle in HF. Then the Lux preamp with its tone controls to boost the HF sparkle may give you great synergy with the Block. (I found the same synergy with my Mytek amp. It didn't have the same HF sparkle as my Bryston, but in lower freq it had advantages. I just boosted the HF using my EQ so now the Mytek beats the Bryston in everything). Of course, that assumes that without the tone controls, the Lux is as good as the Ref 10 for overall resolution. |
@whitecamaross You should ask around on the Mola Mola Makua preamp with DAC. The stand alone DAC was also recently released. https://www.mola-mola.nl/makua.php |
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@mrdecibel - you welcome the guy back, and then you tell him ’Do not..." and "you need to..." - conveying to him what he should and should not do. You also mentioned "We are not here for you." Yet, you are the one laying ground rules for this guy. When WC voices that he prefers things a certain way and wants to lay down some ground rules, then I will certainly respect that and help to support it. I like posts like riaa’s most recent post, where comments are made on the equipment being discussed, not on the person. Dave |
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I dont believe everything I read in the trades when it comes to a "review" of 1 particular item...cause we all know they dont trash anything otherwise the manufacturers wouldnt send them any freebies to review down the road. Shoot-outs are another matter entirely...whether its in a publication OR somebody like the OP. The person was just comparing 3 or 4 Dacs at the same time and expressed the strengths and weakness in each one. I think the conclusion was that the Mola wasn't any better then the PS Audio and the other 2 might have been the Benchmark 3 and Border Patrol which are also MUCH cheaper than the Mola. I could be wrong about the last 2 models tho. |
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If I could remember where I read it I would have posted it. It was either Stereophile, TAS, Part time Audiophile or one of the UK Digital mags I subscribe to most likely. I own NONE of these Dacs so have no skin in the game. Mr Decibel...please try to behave. Why cant you be civilized like me? I think that should be your New Years resolution. LOL |
I’d love do to more shootouts guys but as you all know, I’m doing this all alone financially speaking. I might be able to bring another high caliber amp while I have my block audios but I certainly can’t have 3 ultra expensive amps here at once. I wish some of you lived near me so we can do shootouts here or in your home while we sip on some liquor. I’m pretty much in the middle of nowhere here in terms of audiophiles. South Florida has amazing cars, gorgeous women from all over the world and plenty of night life but that’s it. I wouldn’t be shocked if I’m the youngest audiophile in my area. This kinda sucks because if it weren’t because of YOU ALL here, I wouldn’t have kept this going. YOU ALL make me continue here day in day out, night in night out. At some point it would be awesome to create some kind of “virtual audiophile club” where we can all meet face to face, gain trust, and be able to borrow each other’s stuff without being concerned that someone is going to pull a fast one. To me that would be the best thing ever for all of us. Hell, imagine how many amps you would have tried by now just from me alone ?!!! |
RIAA, Good interesting points you make. I am always interested in what people in the trenches think, but I believe it is more meaningful to say what sonic characteristics the people are referring to, rather than to say that X beats Y. What does "beats" mean? Recently, in Audio Advisor, someone commented on the new Bryston 2.5B cubed he happily bought. He likes warmish sound, and found this Bryston to be warmer than both the Mytek Brooklyn Amp that I own and like and the NAD M22 that I also heard. Since my taste is the opposite, he and I would disagree about whether this Bryston "beats" these other amps, but I value his honest detailed description of his findings because it has saved me from making another mistake of trying that Bryston. |
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i think that you’d be wise to put the momentum integrated back in with a top end hurricane or similar cord finding a way to make it blind. that’s a report i’d love to hear. the concept of ‘sparkle’ intrigues me. high end well designed amps should only have ‘sparkle’ if on the recording. An emphasis on the high end will produce too much ‘sparkle’ on bright recordings. Neutral is always better. The beauty of the momentum is that you can add 1-2db to the treble allowing you to dial in ‘sparkle’ as desired. fwiw i don’t own one. |
mrdecibel, Without being pushy again, I was just itching to help WC decide on the next SS preamp to try with the Block amp. I know he loves the Lux preamp and amp because of their synergy, and I thought the tone controls on the Lux might synergize with the Block also, by giving the HF sparkle that the Block may lack compared to the Plinius. He might not want a stand alone EQ unit, but he definitely noted how the tone controls of the Dag integrated made a big difference for his enjoyment of the Neo. So the tone controls of the Lux preamp might be useful as well for him, but only if the basic circuit of the Lux preamp is as transparent as the ARC Ref 10. Refer to a recent excellent post by 4425 on the subject of why tone controls are so important, from his 40 year experience, also his new post just above. |
I was just kiddin with you Mr D (And being only slightly sarcastic). I'm fessing up regardless of how bad it makes me look. It was not the MOLA DAC that was compared to the PS Audio Dac. It was the MOJO Mystique V3 Dac. My apologies for dissing the Mola. Dementia runs in the family so that's my excuse and Im sticking to it. I also didn't say the reviewer said one was better than the other. But for 3X the amount of dough you would have hoped the Mojo would spank the PS Audio and it didn't. This shootout appears to have been conducted BEFORE the PS Audio "Snowstorm" Dac Upgrade (Or whatever its called) so that's even more troubling. |
Block audio: I briefly connected the Plinius and the difference in bass oomph is incredible. The Plinius blends the bass together while providing awesome bass but the block audio separates all layers of the bottom end. You can almost “taste” each hz in your chest. I would say that in terms of bottom end control, I haven’t owned anything like it. I want to bring a gryphon amp right now. I feel like I got mike Tyson in the ring in his prime right now ready to knock anyone out. There is talks of the boulder 2060 making an appearance here... hmmm. That would be an incredible test |
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@riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook1 On computer audiophile site the Mola Mola trounced a lot of DACs including some u listed. But it is not unusual to see results that vary such as this where one group likes it and the other not so much. If I get lucky (in 2020) I may look into a preamp and/or DAC in the Mola Mola price range. I only bring it up in this thread because the tech used seems rather interesting and a few people with supposedly good DAC’s are excited by this one. Back to regular programming. |
WC, reality is you are not hearing more layers of bass because the Block Audio are much better amps than the Rowland, or Luxman . But because they are very high current and have a very high damping factor. Truth is you could get the same control over the Neo woofers with class D 1000W rms Ice modules or H Core. Ok maybe you would not get that class A purity and sweetness on top, but you could get that back in the preamp by swapping the Ref 10 tubes ( just one example). Truh is your choice of very demanding speakers limits your choices of amps. You need superhuman class A amps , that are complex in build and earth shattering costly... You could never know what is the purest, more transparent, more resolute, more nuanced amp out there that can beat the Lux or Rowlands on midrange , just because the Neos don’t allow you to do so ...as they need so much current and control only a handfull of monsters like the Block Audio will wake them up enough to your liking. ( as you are listening at very high spl) Lesser demanding speakers powerwise = a lot more power amp choices = lower power purest design amps possible. |
Yes it makes sense what you are saying technodude. The Neolith won’t really wake up with little baby amps or integrateds. I guess it is all relevant in many ways. I have a buddy who owns the expensive rockports and he tried so many amps until he finally settled with boulder. He punished so many amps throughout his journey such as ayre Monos, 350.8, 28b3, deviolet, etc etc and none of them could push those bass drivers. They made his speakers sound good but never gave you a wow factor. He then tried boulder Monos and he hasn’t changed ever since. There’s definitely something that manufacturers do to speakers of this price point that forces you to spend big money on amps. As far as class d, I am thinking of bringing back the black system to see how it does here, but man I just don’t think there’s any class d amp that can give you this sledgehammer bottom end from the blocks. 5,000 damping factor is almost 25 times more than a pass labs amp. Think about that. |
I would be careful not to try to explain the superb bass of the Block/Neo on just 1 criterion--damping factor. High damping factor is found in any design with lots of negative feedback. Many cheap, crummy amps have high damping factor which may give power/tightness, but what about resolution? High current capability is also good, but we don't understand all the factors why an amp will have great resolution and power. Yet the Block seems to have superb resolution and overall sound quality throughout the entire freq range, and probably excellent bass definition at low levels as well as high levels. Although WC values high power and dynamics, he seems to single out these aspects for bass, whereas other listeners might value the Block for its full freq range excellence at all volume levels. Also, many owners of other stats who are satisfied with somewhat lower volume levels find that many amps work well. This is probably true for the few other owners of Neos, but we haven't heard from them. But if you want to make many stats have full dynamics like many conventional dynamic or even horn speakers, very few amps will qualify. |
I agree with Viber’s comments about damping factor. Usually damping factor is defined on the basis of an 8 ohm load. Assuming that is the case here, and assuming the spec is accurate, a damping factor of 5000 means that the amp has an output impedance of 8/5000 = 0.0016 ohms. While the combined resistance of the two conductors of say a 10 foot 10 gauge speaker cable is 0.02 ohms, 12.5 times as much as the output impedance of the amp. So with that speaker cable the damping impedance presented to a speaker by an amp having a damping factor of 5000 will be 0.02 + 0.0016 = 0.0216 ohms. Not much different than the damping factor limitation imposed by the cable itself, and still vastly smaller than the impedance of the speaker (that ratio is what matters), especially in the bass region. So IMO it is fair to say that a damping factor in the thousands is overkill by a wide margin, and if such an amp has better bass control than an amp having a much lower damping factor the reason is something else. Also, btw, noted designers Roger Modjeski (Music Reference) and Ralph Karsten (Atma-Sphere), while admittedly being designers of tube amps having damping factors that are far lower than the damping factors of nearly all solid state amps, have both stated in threads here that no speaker in existence needs a damping factor greater than the low double digits. Best regards, -- Al |
So i have been getting a few questions in regards to integrateds and i figure i rather answer it here. Someone had mentioned that they own the pass int 250 and also the gryphon diablo 300, but they preferred the pass integrated for their sonus faber speakers. They wanted me to recommend an integrated that can add more resolution. I am going to pretty much make a general recommendation which is to first buy the pass labs int 250. If that is lacking something such as muscle or detail then you can go to the gryphon diablo 300 which will certainly add muscle and some more refinement. If you want more mids with sweeter highs than the gryphon has then go to the luxman 509X. If those still disappoint you then go to the Dan Agostino Momentum intregrated. Lastly, if you STILL feel that this momentum lacks synergy or magic then it is time to begin buying separates. Thats my .02 cts |
Viber- remember that it is not that I don’t value resolution. With magico I was happy with all the resolution but the bass wasn’t anything to write about. Of course I wish I had them so I can use these amps with them. That said, it would be a total waste to have a speaker as big as the Neolith and not having an amp that can mangle those woofers. You see, block audio has one thing I truely like which is that it can show me what a speaker can or can’t do in terms of bass. It will show me how much deeper a speaker can go in addition to the rest of its attributes. |
I don’t know about anyone else , but me , I GOTTA have bass. I have switched my amps from the Mc30 (had great deep bass) to the Granite Audio 865SR Mono Block Tube amps , which have even better deep layered Bass. I am using some Raytheon 6F8G in the V1 spot and the Sylvania Vt-231 From The 1940s with two hole black ladder plates in the V2 For the V3 and V4 are a Pair of Shuguang treasure KT-88Z and the Recticifer is Jan Cetron 5R4-WGB. .The Sylvanias are Holographic with great mids and Resolution, but i have to Have the Raytheon in V1 to give me Killer layers and Layers of bass. The best Bass that i have had from any Tube amps.These are my favorite tube amps , by far. It is too bad that they would not work on WCSS speakers. But if you ever decided to try some high efficiency speakers, Tube amps is the way to go IMO |
I also have asked in the past for WCSS demo list and got ZERO response. I am not sure why, unless he just uses one Dire Straits album or song ?. Seems that this would be good info to have so that we could try the same stuff on our own system .. ???? I also sent him a bunch of "Demo" Cds , but never heard back which, if any sounded good or worked good for demoing on his system. |
