My list of seller red flags

Lots of well lit pictures from multiple angles... and if it’s electronics being offered, one showing the unit powered on please. 

Thanx "4krowme".

Yeah, I have made a few X-mas celebrations sound at least a bit sweeter I believe. You can tell at times someone's  true intent simply through the questions they will ask. And sometimes I think of how it was years ago for me. Saving for a piece of gear or parts to build something new. And depending on your location many live far from another person whom may share the same ideology and love of the music that audiophiles seem to just, "get". And then there is the fact that there are almost no "Brick and mortar" audio stores left.
That all makes it quite hard for new people to join this hobby.
So as I find them. I help as much as I can. And have indeed sent matching gear and peripheral items also. That went along with whatever piece the person had purchased from me. To those I felt could and would appreciate it much more than the box it was gathering cobwebs in! Especially around Christmas time.. And many times it has been myself, that lowered a price. Usually after not being asked to. But because I could. For certain people. Some of them? I still correspond with even after many years! Selling gear to make money was never my "forte" to begin with. I just like to, "Once in awhile"?  Break even!
Hee hee, but that will never happen!

When I sell something I no longer will counter offer.  While you can receive multiple offers, to give a counter offer locks up your ad for another buyer for up to 48 hours.  Competitor seller for the same product may place a low ball offer under a pseudo name then if you counter your unit falls off the map AND your 28 days ad still expires on the same contractural date, effectively reducing total exposure.  

It is better to decline the buyer and give them a message to offer higher or a specific value.

Jollygreenaudiophile2,

   You ring a bell with me when it comes to reselling good gear. Actually, there are quite a few of us that think this way. When I meet someone like yourself, it makes me smile. Your right on track in my book. I love to work on the gear that I do, and really appreciate customers that get a lot from that gear. We all probably have GiveN a piece of equipment that was hoped to bring some enjoyment to the person on the other end. I have done this with a younger crowd from time to time. They usually have never heard anything like it, and that is pretty cool to see the look on their faces when they listen for the first time.
 One of my present customers is surprised that I sent his unit out to a reputable tech to be repaired since I could not locate the problem myself. The way I see it is that when the problem is found, I will learn a bit more about this piece. It's just the way I choose to look at some things in life. Hell, I enjoy the whole restoration process anyway, so I am glad to share it with others.

I think a buyer that provides such an extensive list of red flags is almost guaranteed to be a difficult person to work with. The gall of a seller to stand firm on their price! Please give an example a non-gimmicky price

Bingo!

I figure that the scammers got in on the ground floor actually. It just took awhile for them to "Perfect" their, "Games" I guess. But you can weed them out for the most part. 
 "4Krowme"? I agree with everything you have said. But also realize- There are a few of use who got into moving used gear, "But ONLY of a certain quality", not to make a profit. I started out actually just helping friends find nice gear at a good price. The fact that I could fix it? That changed the ballgame a bit because I actually got "Heavy" into it trying to "Find, fix and then sell at simply the cost of what I had in the gear itself".  This so friends , then acquaintances, and finally everyone whom fancied themselves "Budding Audiophiles"- So they could not only find the gear I was talking about. But try it, enjoy it and learn from it.  And also to further, "As a whole", this hobby I love and enjoy so much. And I am not the only one. But typically? "We", don't advertise ourselves. Take for instance the fact that I will not here, tell you my username nor even the sites I list/deal with the most. The gear that I sell. after I have found it. I typically have had at least a few months at least before I list it. And either I have gone through it myself OR If I don't have the time. I am paying one of the few shops around that I trust, "To a point"!
And have cultivated a relationship with. And many of these fellows at the shops I have gotten to know over many years. "Like most of us end up doing". And really only deal with the few of those whom seem to care as much as I do about this gear. 
 Now, Why do I still do this? Many friends over the years "seemed", to be "Budding Audiophiles", yet always ended up with say, "The Pioneer flagship stereo system" (At BEST)! As their end-game when it came to audio. But "I",  could show them and then "Get them", a system just nice enough. To be just (Sensitive) enough. To really begin to hear the differences. But ONLY with older, 'Vintage", type gear. much of the same gear I found the, "Magic" in back in the 60's, 70's and 80's myself. And  now for about half the cost of that, "Pioneer", "stuff"? They can get a system that was a companies "Flagship", of amp/amps and pre. With modern source gear and speakers of at least a decent quality. "The speakers have also been gone through as needed", if used. {Yes, I do that as well,.....Exhausting}!! 

 And "POOF"! They get to experience the magic they thought had disappeared from life back "Usually",  in the 80's.  And, "I", get another friend to share my hobby with.
 But yeah, the cost of say one of these amplifiers after I acquire it and then fix and sometimes upgrade a few things? Typically a bit more then what it sold for new. But adjusted for inflation? One hell of a deal! And to purchase "anything", new? Anything that would even begin to approach the sound quality of this gear? It would cost WAY more than any of them would shell out without first,- "Climbing that ladder" that "IS", this hobby! 
Eventually, some do, some stop there. Most fall in the middle actually, but ALL are happy!

 And you have to admit.....Having a nice sounding rig does indeed, (Improve the overall quality of your life).

And if you cannot realize that? I am not to sure, just quite "Why", you are here!
 Yeah, there ARE scams,. They "abound", in fact. If it sounds too good to be true..........
 But there are also those like myself....
 And, "NO", I still will not answer a question asking me to sell "That amp Nelson Pass built by hand", to you- For just $250 bucks! And that "After" asking for, "Provenance". Of which I then provided!!!
 Talk about, "Exhausting"....
And yes, That has happened- MORE than once...
 There are always two sides!

And I'll end with this. 

When it comes to the "really", nice "Vintage", gear? 

It is actually NOT,  "A Buyers Market". And for good reason.
 Think on that a bit...
And also think about the fact that ALL of the gear "Used" I have purchased? All of it was purchased from "Online sites" here or, "Overseas"-(Auctions)!
  And that is an entirely different ballgame!

I stopped buy gear from private sellers on the net many years ago. Why, well the list above has a bit do with it.  Back in the early part of this century "Buying On Line"  was smooth with only a few bumps.  Once the scam artists learned to use computers, private sales became much harder.  Of the four pieces I have purchased lately only one was used and I drove 140 miles to see was I was getting.  The remainder were New or Demo from Commercial sellers on this site.  George said it "All Things Must Pass"

  To get the units that I for upgrade and resale, I use eBay. So then, I am the one who has to pick between lies and price. The ads go out of their way to lie about the component in some cases. Fully tested/inspected means it was plugged in and the light came on. One seller even takes the lid off of the unit to show the craftsmanship inside. Since I work on these exact units, I can clearly see that absolutely nothing has been done.
>>>>>>Then there is the price. I get that the unit Might be in great shape for it's age. It may even come with the original manual and box, but that just doesn't make it good as new. The capacitors inside the unit in these cases are 30 years old to begin with, and I routinely see corrosion inside the RCA jacks from the back view.
 Fortunately for me, I am able restore these units regardless of electrical condition, but if I were buy/plug/play, it would easily be considered a ripoff.

Interesting discussion
Definitely had horror stories with Ebay. Be wary of buying used subs, as damage by shippers, one amp destroyed by USPS(took forever to get money back, badly packed, and needed insurance copy from seller, did leave negative), another UPS, working, but front upper corners damaged, took a month, but got decent partial amount back.

Old unique sound processor did not work , burning fuses, in agreement, mostly refunded, but have product so only about 12 dollars. Believe left negative. Sometime may spend $30, local electrical audio guy, who has worked on Legacy Whispers that I have seen, maybe can at least fix the amp. 



A top Cardas cable (think canuckaudiomart but US seller), seller had the cleaner in ad and did not send that, so asked. Got mad at me, talking about purity of audio. Good price on cable and cleaner cheap, so let it go.

On here, the Gon (as I call it), seller was not clear in ad about paypal fee, so complained and we split it. Little unhappy, but product was mint as stated which was nice. And still not clear to me reading this discussion about paypal fees.
But this was minor and have not had any issues with purchases here.


Interesting question, got new, but old stock upper level Optoma projector for about $500, retail 7k. Very happy with it. Bluray, of course, not 4K (BTW, was UPS ground and perfect. Marked fragile all over box.)
Clearly (think Ebay, high rating) seller making money off of this.


Or how about Cardas EM5813 earphone, now older model, was $425, now max $250 online sellers, mine $100 from Drop. No trial, that is the risk. Was very happy, but sadly one side just failed. Well under warranty, and Cardas good company, so not worried.

But again, these discounts are amazing from original retail price.

OK, I'll bite.  What are you downsizing, Walkman, earphones, or battery? Or are you just losing weight?

I’m downsizing for the coronavirus pandemic.

And what is this "Contact For Price" listings?

ozzy

You mean like this thread??

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/whats-in-your-second-system?highlight=What’s%2Bin%2Byour%2Bse...

Cowabunga dude, these Bose really rock!  If it ain't Bose, you got hosed.

It was working the last time I used it.

I bought my system from a Nigerian prince, with the money I won in a Costa Rican lottery with a ticket I don't remember purchasing, but I had to throw in money that I inherited from a uncle in Jamaica who my parents never mentioned I had. 

Net, net, the system only cost me $100,000 out of pocket.

Goodness this thread is hilarious.  So many red flags 🚩 that many should flee this site and stick to EBay. 

Maybe you can figure out a way to conduct an audit of every seller's equipment and provide the "obvious" results for all prospective buyers

Of course many people can have second systems. I am talking about medium to high volume sellers where everything seems to be "gently used from a second system". Obviously that can't be the case .

Oh, and I guess you would consider this to be fishy too, I have 3 amps in my main system that I rotate between - Modwright pre/power, an Line Magnetic and Finale Audio integrated amps. My oh my how would I ever write an add if I wanted to sell one.

" " And what's up with all these "second systems"? Sounds a little fishy to me."

Main system in my living room
Second system in my upstairs family room
Third system - headphone amp based

Really, delusional?
_______________________________________________________
"12inch45rpm OP12 
If I see a seller with such "precise" pricing I think they are delusional and move on.

"Not someone I want to deal with".
_____________________________________________
Likewise,
Paul

" And what's up with all these "second systems"? Sounds a little fishy to me."

What! We have 4 systems in our house, main, office, garage and my wife's.

I used to have a "second system" at my office-- until my wife found out about her.

In all seriousness, though, I do remember an ad here on Audiogon several years ago for a set of avant-garde trios, and I distinctly remember part of the copy: "these are big toys for the big boys".

I guess I wasn’t a big boy, and even if I did want to spend the money on Avantgardes, that kind of smug unctiousness turned me off that seller immediately

And what's up with all these "second systems"? Sounds a little fishy to me.

I'm trying to figure out what's "fishy" about the 2nd system in my bedroom, or the third system in my computer room, or the fourth system in my home office.  I won't mention the BlueSound speakers I have out in my garage.  Well at least not as a fifth "system".  Stuff moves around on a regular basis, sometimes from system one to one of the others, sometimes from one of the secondary systems out the door.

Not that I put any of that into my ads, but I still don't get it.

there are many lengthy threads here about second systems, like in bedroom or office

And what's up with all these "second systems"? Sounds a little fishy to me.

Only used once.

"my dedicated audio room never came to fruition"
"liked them so much I moved up the line"

Only used once.

Anytime a seller posts: "My loss is your gain" I shy away.

I’m often shocked at how little or how much an item can sell for, even items that are fairly regularly listed...incredible variance...

Red flags? How about the same item posted here for one price and posted on a very popular site for twice the price?  It is happening now for one item.  I imagine the seller knows that the people on this site are a lot more sophisticated and know a realistic price but I feel bad for someone that buys it at the inflated price on the other site.

It's the market that determines the price, not what you think it is worth.

The Seller is the other component that makes up a Market. Value is relative to each party. When 2 parties are in agreement on the value, you get the transaction. Doesn't matter if it's records, amps, options or futures.

I bought from a guy without looking at his feedback. Mistake. The item was damaged in shipping, and also obviously was not in good shape to begin with. No response from my complaints. I left neg feedback and noticed he had done the exact same thing to two other people. I left him some more neg feedback. So he left neg feedback on me! Made up a big fake story.  No one know how many people this jerk has ripped off and he has "high status" on audiogon. I’ve bought and sold twice as much as this guy and he gets a "high status" rating? How do I get a high status rating? Not that I need it. Point is, don’t put much faith in audiogon ratings. You may be dealing with a high status seller!

I don’t really know anyone here, yet I feel that Audiogon would be a good place to purchase high-end audio equipment, especially from familiar names.  People here care about the music and equipment that accurately plays the music.  They enjoy sharing that enthusiasm with like-minded people, including newbies who are pursuing a new found interest,  They don’t seem like the sort that cares mostly for the buck or profiting by hiding a significant flaw in their equipment to get a sale.  The only reason I can think for not buying here is that the equipment and the prices they command are usually out of my league.  It looks like great stuff, but Im on a fixed income budget.  

Several important issues were brought up on this forum.  Some people have nits, but lets get real.  There is no one out there forcing anyone to buy any equipment.  that is all on you.  There is a '"blue book" that most shops use (I've seen it many times) that shows prices of used equipment.

Same as with cars, watches, etc.  I typically price items to sell.  Meaning that I price at or slightly below blue book value.  most times below.  This does not mean that I am desperate. It means that I am trying to convey  to potential buyers that I have priced correctly.  However, many potential buyers take that as a weakness on my part and still lowball the hell out of the price.  I used to get insulted, but now I ignore completely lowballers.

I really don't care a lick if a lowballer got insulted that I ignored  their offer.   I prefer local pickup because that means that the buyer will pay with cash and more  importantly, the buyer will see  and hear the unit actually operate.  This way they can't be a paypal lookie loo where they receive a unit under paypal, realize that even though it looks and operates as advertised (always do),  they can make some outrageous claim on paypal and get their money back.  As I have mentioned many times in other posts, I am not a store.  Also, paypal protects the buyer, never the seller.  If the buyer insist on paypal, (never for in-home pickup) that buyer will pay the paypal fee, no me.  Checks are fine (my risk), but I wait until my bank tells me the check clears (yes I know scammers can get around this), before I ship.

I have never had one person come to my home and hear a unit operate and change their mind.  Never.

I am honest, I state clearly the condition of the unit for sale.  They always work correctly. If it was modified, I explain clearly what the modifications were and even why it was done (if at all).

I have purchased many items on audiogon also.  Each Item  I purchased, I researched the price (high, average, low) selling price to know what the market price actually is. also the rarity of the item may make items more valuable.

I can' think of one time where I offered less than the asking price.  Because I am not a flipper and I am buying for my system and enjoyment.  I'm not trying to buy low and flip. 

Most people want a fair deal.  Americans don't like to haggle, like many other countries do.  That is America.  nothing wrong with that.  But, a fair price is a fair price.  Every time I saw an item I was interest in being priced way too high, I simply moved on.  My world wasn't going to end if I didn't purchase that Item at that moment.

Unless it was/is a very rare item, it will come up for sale some other time or some other place.

I sell for two reasons.  1.  I may have too much stuff and it is time to clear some items out, or 2) I am upgrading, bought a new or used item that is better than the  one I own and want to sell the current item.

Look; If you don't like the price or the advertisement, simply move on.  You don't have to buy the item from that person.  What are you, the advertising police?  

In this hobby, unless you are a hoarder, to upgrade, you have to sell your existing item. Do so fairly and move on.

Also, in closing, yes, an item is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. but an item is also worth what I a willing to sell it for. If you don't like that, don't buy the item.  There are times where I will entertain a lower  offer than what I initially advertised, but, if I priced it to sell in the first place, there isn't much room on my part to go much lower, and as long as I'm no desperate, I won't.

enjoy, and stay safe

I’m going to assume that you’re an audiophile who knows what this table is and what they are selling for on the used market. This is the kind of turntable that visitors will take one look and go, ’Wow!’ This is a thing of beauty. Not a table for wimps

Maybe just me, but I find this unncessary and bit of a turn off. Comes accross as "used car salesmany". Not a red flag, but possible a half-red flag :-)

As one friend used to say, "This is a free country.  You're free to ask a price, I'm free not to pay it."

If a seller says his price is firm, then it is.  If it's too much for you, then...  don't buy it.   Should I list something higher so I can then come down for you?  

If it's overpriced, then you don't have to pay it.  Or perhaps it's overpriced to give him some wiggle room to come down from.  And of course, you don't have to buy it.

Many items are both pricey AND not highly sought after, so they take a very long time to sell, no matter how much or how little is being asked.  So it makes sense that some items get reposted a number of times.

A seller should be able to speak well of the item they're selling, but you're not stupid (I hope) and really care all that much.  Personally I take the tact of saying something like I did in an ad I currently have on Craigslist:

"I'm going to assume that you're an audiophile who knows what this table is and what they are selling for on the used market. This is the kind of turntable that visitors will take one look and go, 'Wow!' This is a thing of beauty. Not a table for wimps. Price includes dust cover. Does not include cartridge. If you have to have the cartridge, I can part with it for a fair price, keeping in mind that I'll have to replace it."

It's a high-end table that I'll list on Audiogon when I get tired enough of trying to find a local buyer.  Something like this doesn't sell readily.  Not everyone is ready to drop the kind of loot I'm asking, which happens to be near the bottom of prices I've seen around for this item.  But it's still more than most people will drop on a turntable.

If I’m showing it to a friend I say new car, if I’m selling it to someone I don’t know I do not say new...the Audiogon rating system states an item can only be called New if it is in a factory sealed box...I always refer to my newly purchased used audio gear to my friends as my new...

I’ve bought and sold many things on various sites. When I started selling, I quickly learned to put "No trades, please" and "No lowball offers, please" in my listings. Of course I still heard from people offering trades & lowball offers--just fewer than if didn’t put those provisos in the listing.

Why no trades? 2 reasons:
1 - First/foremost: it greatly complicates the security issues involved in any transaction. A straight-up, Paypal-protected transaction is what I seek.
2 - Because if I really want a thing, I’ll go out and find it--hopefully multiple examples of it, so I can buy the best one at the best price.

When I’m buying, I avoid any seller having bad feedback (I’m not a masochist, so no point in going there); also any that doesn’t have original packaging. Reason for the latter is simple: if I ever wish to sell that new/used toy, I become the seller offering a thing w/no packaging. It’s just bad form, unless the item is truly old & having no box(es) is understandable.

Final point: I not only have feedback on several sites, but also something of a reputation via having posted there semi-intelligently over the years. I find that really helps me communicate with buyers & sellers because I'm not a total unknown.

Final/FINAL point: I would gladly pay to list things on Audiogon (there was an attractive discount for this recently)--but the only way to sell here is to have a business-type Paypal acct, which I don't have & don't want. 

$1875 is still gimmicky because it has too many significant digits. Anything more than two is gimmicky. If you mean $1900, just say $1900. Low volume audio equipment with a niche market can not have such precise pricing.

If I see a seller with such "precise" pricing I think they are delusional and move on. Not someone I want to deal with.

Great.  Another buyer that wants everything on a silver platter.  NIB, with receipt, 1080P or 4K quality pictures and a description that reads like an audio review.   For a price that is 50% of FMV....for a used item.   Guess what, we ALL want that, but understand that it is not realistic.  

Don't like how the ad is constructed, move on.
Don't like the quality of pictures included in the ad, move on.
Don't like the price, move on.
Don't like how the seller responds to questions, move on.

Early in the thread, someone mentioned selling a McIntosh piece without an original McIntosh box.   I do understand this concern, but it can be addressed.   I have shipped numerous McIntosh items- MR71 tuner with case, 2100 amp, c28 without case, c28 with case.....all without a MAC box.  But I carefully packed, and made sure to add extra protection for the face.   I built a shipping crate for the MR71.   My cost was about $25 in materials, and about 30min of my time.    All pieces arrived intact.

I buy and sell all the time- I like to swap equipment.   I never sell because I have to.  I set my price(s) based upon current and repeatable FMV- I seldom use the highest price in my comparisons.   

I respond to low ballers with a price that is HIGHER than my original asking price.   They get the message quickly.  Reasonable offers are politely countered.

When I submit an offer that a seller considers "low" or "low ball" I always try to have records of recent sales in front of me to prove why my offer is fair.   This strategy has worked more often than not- sellers who want to sell understand they are not selling in vacuum and if their price is too high they will be married to the item.

People try to overthink the process, and end up as bitter neurotic shut ins.   Don't like something- move on !

" agree, items listed as New, then the description says only used 20 hours..."

Well, think of it this way. You just bought a new car and drive over to friend's house 4 days and 80 miles later to show him. Do you say: " How do you like my new car or How do you like my used car?"

I agree with many of the 'naysayers' here
Overpriced is a subjective perception, unless you keep up with recent selling prices for the unit. Even then, a component that has been taken care of meticulously by a true audiophile may deserve to ask for more than recent sales prices

Not everyone likes to haggle. It's not part of our American culture for Pete's sake! IMO, asking for an amount you KNOW you are not going to get just so you can haggle with interested would-be buyers is worse than stating your price is firm! If the price is firm and fair, heck yes I'll buy it.

OK, OK, I adjusted my "Gimmicky Pricing" from $1899 to $1875.

Will it fly off the shelf now?