To all you goners out there, here is my experience with
Audio Research.
Approximately four years ago I purchased an AR Reference 75
power amp. It was on special at the time
and I bought if from a dealer in Brisbane, Australia.
I used the amp for the rear channels of my home theatre
system which I only use occasionally because I travel a lot for work and I
mainly listen to music.
One night I switched the amp on and a white flash and
burning smell came from the amplifier and it didn’t power up. I thought it may have been a tube, and
because I had no spares, I reported the problem to my Brisbane dealer and via
email to Audio Research. A copy of the
reply sent from AR on the 5th March 2016 follows:
'Thank you for choosing Audio Research and
the REF75. I suspect you had an internal tube arc. The internal
tube short can also take out a plate or screen resistor. So just
replacing the tube will not fix this problem. The resistors also need to be
replaced. You can confirm this by checking the bias for this tube.
If the bias reads zero, a resistor is open. This is an easy repair that
our distributor in Australia can do.
The SE update for the REF75 comes with a
complete new set of tubes including a new set of KT150s. This is the only
way it is sold. If you so choose, Our Australian distributor can also
install this SE upgrade for you while the amp is in for repair.'
I then proceeded to order some more tubes
to see if a replacement tube would fix the problem.
I ordered the following tubes:
2 x Electro-Harmonix 6H30Pi Gold with Matched Triodes
(Balanced)
4 x KT150 Power Vacuum Tube - [Matching (10+ tubes)]
4 x KT120 Power Vacuum Tubes - [Matching (10+ tubes)]
When they arrived, I tried the new tubes but they didn’t fix
the problem as the amplifier failed to switch on. I then contacted my dealer and freighted the
amplifier to Brisbane for repair. This
was done in June of last year. I
included all of the above tubes in the package in case they were needed. I also would have liked the amp to be upgraded
to SE status using the tubes supplied if possible.
In September/October last year I enquired about the status
of the repair and before Christmas enquired again. After again emailing AR, I
was contacted by the Australian Distributor who told me that the service agent
in Brisbane had been trying to get parts for the wrong amplifier and that the
amplifier would be transported to Melbourne for repair. I asked them to get me a price for the
upgrade using my tubes.
In January/February of this year, I was contacted by the
Australian Distributor and had to supply proof of purchase because there was a
dispute over whether the amplifier was in fact under warranty when the fault
occurred. I again asked about getting
the upgrade using the supplied tubes which were still with the repair agent in
Brisbane. Eventually I was told that I
could have the upgrade using AR tubes only, for the heavily discounted price of
$3,000 Australian. Nothing like gouging
your customers!!!!!! Especially when I
could have bought a small car for the original cost of the amplifier in
Australia.
I chose to just get the original amplifier repaired under
warranty which I was told needed a new main circuit board. This week my amplifier finally arrived back
home after nearly 12 months away for a repair under warranty. The original tubes have been put in a box
with ‘Faulty Old Tubes,’ written on the box.
The tubes I sent with the amplifier have not been returned, and no
replacement tubes have been included.
I am amazed that the initial fault destroyed six tubes, so I
have asked how the Distributor tested the tubes to determine that they were
faulty. I am now left with an amplifier
that doesn’t work and 10 expensive vacuum tubes missing somewhere in Australia. I am also left with a conundrum, if when I
finally get my tubes back and use them to ensure the amplifier works, what
happens if it doesn’t. Will AR then
blame me for any fault that occurs on power up because I haven’t purchased
tubes from them at their heavily marked up prices????
For me I will never touch another Audio Research product for
as long as I reside on this planet. I
will be telling all my audiophile friends and putting this report on every
forum that will publish it. Best of luck
for the future Audio Research and may you drown in your policy mess!!!
Take
a Thöress phono stage and an ARC phono stage to your most highly
recommended tube amp technician and ask them which they’d prefer to
service. One of these products will outlive its maker in terms of
serviceability and the other one won’t.
@cleeds wrote:
There’s really
nothing to argue about here, because Audio Research products have
already outlived their maker. ARC founder William Z. Johnson died six
years ago, yet ARC will still service his SP-1 preamplifier, which was
introduced in 1970.
The few ARC products that the company can’t
fully support are CD players, where parts for the mechanisms are no
longer available. All of its amplifiers and preamplifiers can be
serviced to original factory spec, or better. Please feel free to verify
this with ARC directly or any ARC authorized dealer.
ARC service is legendary. That’s part of the reason why the products retain their value on the used market so well.
Thom,
I understand that you don’t care for electronics that rely on circuit
boards, and you’re certainly entitled to your preference. But to extend
that preference to conclude that ARC products aren’t serviceable flies
in the face of the facts.
If this is true, then ARC is to be applauded for having circuit board inventory on hand for 40+ year old preamps. As I mentioned above, I have no way of fact checking
your comments which are in direct opposition to perfectpathtech's comments:
perfectpathtech wrote:
Tonykay- I sold my Classic 120’s 3 years ago after owning them for 7 Like
yourself saved a long time to buy a used pair. The same mono blew up 3
times! Dumped them as-is. Sad part is gent I sold them to couldn’t
repair it, he sent it to ARC, and they said it was irreparable!
When
Bill Johnson passed and the company sold, first thing they did was
throw away their vast parts supply for all previous products! Mr Johnson
has to be rolling in his grave!
What can't be debated is the availability of wire to repair for example, an 80 year old Western Electric amplifier. I'm only advocating informed decision making during the purchase process, as we all get to vote with our checkbook. For me (obviously, others may differ), I'm a big fan of non-disposable technology where possible. I don't like to see products rendered irreparable and in a landfill if at all possible.
I need to clarify my earlier comment regarding circuit board vs. traditional construction techniques in order to be fair about this. Taking first world labor rates into consideration, I'd never expect a product retailing at $4,000
(for example)
to employ these traditional techniques. An example of a product using circuit boards which I heartily recommend is the Herron VTPH-2 phono stage. It's an absolute steal at its price point (disclaimer: I sell these phono stages, so take this comment for what it's worth).
Once a product surpasses the 5-figure price point, I think construction methods are one element of many which should be factored into the purchase decision.
I think everyone would agree, in a perfect world, we could bring our equipment back to an authorized dealer and expect excellent service.
Anyone who thinks we live in a perfect world is an absolute fool. OP started with an excellent idea, contacting AR directly, to ask for guidance.
IMHO it is reasonable to expect excellent results and customer sx when you follow their suggestions, and to also hold them accountable for the results of following their advice.
OP screwed up badly by sending the amp to the dealer first. AR said distributor. I think they suggested this for a reason. They probably have a very high level of trust in their distributors and are very confident their distributors will uphold their standards.
AR was told their was a white flash and a burnt smell. I'm not a rocket scientist, but to me, unless the tube blew open, a tube failure ought not to smell funny. It's entirely reasonable to follow AR recommendation at that point, and send it to the distributor, not order tubes and see if that works, especially under warrantee, when putting in a fresh tube could cause further damage they should not have to be held accountable for.
AR did NOT say they would do the upgrade with your supplied tubes. To draw an analogy to automotive repair, reach your own conclusion that they should is YOUR problem, not theirs.
If the OP had presented this exact scenario, and then complained of two issues, I'd not have responded. First, he is correct, Dealer should have returned the tubes he supplied. Second, I think if this was all warrantee work, AR's distributor should have returned it repaired with a replacement tube for the one tube presumably that failed under warrantee, unless tubes are generally regarded as wear items. (That I don't know)
As a person in the US with a very litigious society, and one who is very deeply involved in motorsports, I have to comment on the interesting side discussion about car repair and bringing in your own parts.
So, to my Aussie legal expert audiophiles: If I bring my BMW in to a dealer and give them a cheap aftermarket control arm to replace a worn one, they must apparently use it, despite not having come from their OEM supplier who is held to certain standards.
If I die in a car crash who's fault is traced to a failure in that control arm, can my wife sue the BMW dealer for faulty work? In the US, BMW could certainly expect a lawsuit if the dealer had used OEM parts....
Hello all and again thanks for your insightful comments and criticisms. Some further information. You are correct I am fairly unsophisticated as an audiophile having only been introduced to the wonders of Hi Fi equipment when I purchased my first loudspeaker kit in 1973 - a pair of KEF Concertos. I had a NAD amp and a Connoisseur
turntable, Grace arm and moving magnet cartridge.
One day I heard some Magnepan speakers and fell in love with the sound. Unfortunately I could never afford this equipment in Australia at the time being in the 'I'm having kids time of life'.
In 1992 my brother was sent by the RAAF to study at Dayton Ohio. While he was there he purchased a pair of Apogee Centaur Majors, a McCormack DNA 1, a McCormack ALD 1 with outboard power supply and phono stage. Upon his return I purchased them from him and I still have the ALD 1 but traded the DNA 1 for a DNA 2, I have had both amps upgraded by Steve McCormack to Revision A status as well as a second DNA 2. All these amps are still in use and sound fantastic.
My tube journey started about 12 years ago when I purchased a second hand Manley Steelhead which I have since sold to my brother. We replaced the tubes in the amp last night and it sounds amazing. I purchased an Aesthetix Io Eclipse brand new as well as Martin Logan CLX speakers. Part of my unsophisticated audio journey. I now own a Clearaudio Master Reference turntable, Graham Phantom Supreme tonearm, Benz Micro LP-S cartridge, SME Series V arm and Koetsu Azule cartridge. I have the Allnic L-3000 preamp and currently Ayon Audio Orthos XS using KT150 tubes drive the CLX's and I use twin Martin Logan subs. I also purchased a pair of Apogee Divas which are with Graz being upgraded and these will eventually replace the CLX's. I used the Ref75 for the rear channels driving the Apogee Centaur Majors because I felt they were a bit lacking in power for the CLX's.
I purchased several power amps because my original intention was to use an active crossover and tri-amp the Divas but I have since changed my mind but will keep the amps in case that changes in the future. My intention was to use tubes for mid and tweeter and SS for the bass panel.
Anyway I agree with the many posts that suggest never to deal with the retailer in Brisbane again and I have already decided this having had issues with him on other occasions. Unfortunately this leaves only one other dealer in Queensland and as I live in Mackay, I will now have to travel to Sydney or Melbourne for any listening sessions. Like travelling from Los Angeles to New York really.
ARC have been good since I have updated them on the situation but the Australian Distributor is trying to pass the blame back to them advising me that the person at ARC who replied to my original email no longer works there so there was unavoidable discontinuity by ARC.
For my part I discussed the possibility of the upgrade using my supplied tubes with the Distributor and the email correspondence that took place:
Fri, 21 Oct 2016
Hello Gareth,
Thank you for your reply regarding my Reference 75
amplifier. From your email, I am reading between the lines that you have
only just looked at the amplifier to determine what is wrong with it.
This is extremely disappointing if it is true.
I was going to get the amplifier upgraded to the SE model but
have since changed my mind, AR will not permit upgrading with tubes supplied by
the owner and as I have the tubes required for the upgrade, I do not want to
pay for them again. As this is their policy then please repair the
amplifier back to original under warranty and I will use the tubes that I sent
with the unit (for that repair) rather than buy additional tubes from Audio
Research.
Hello Tony,
It is actually quite the contrary,
there have been points of inefficiency in the process that have led
to this unfortunate delay in processing your service job.
My involvement in this is to try to
resolve this as quickly as possible and not to further exacerbate the
situation.
According to my information, your
unit is out of warranty and was damaged by corrosion caused most
likely by a fluid being spilled onto the main board.
The RRP of the main board is
AUD$3,500.00 inc GST plus labour, as mentioned I am happy to subsidise this due
to the circumstances we are discussing.
I personally am not aware of your
request to do the SE upgrade on your unit, if this is the case we can certainly
manage to create a work around on the valves that would help. Please let
me know as this will impact the repair work also.
Kind Regards,
Gareth
Weller || National Sales
Manager
Hello
Gareth,
You
are incorrect about the warranty. The unit was under warranty when it was sent
for repair. I have the receipt and warranty card to prove it. Nothing has ever
been spilt on the unit it has been in an air conditioned room in Mackay where I
have had other amplifiers for over 10 years with no issues.
Hi Tony,
I am the service manager for Synergy
Audio, I totally apologize for the delay in getting back to you regarding Ref
75 repair.
We are liaising with Audio
Research for the (discounted) price for the boards
required to upgrade your REF75 to the SE version (less the tubes).
I will be in touch as soon as we
hear back from Audio Research.
Thank you for your patience.
Kind Regards,
Jim
Jim
Filatakis || Technician
As you can see the amp was with the distributor since last November. I finally got sick of waiting several weeks ago and ARC have sped up the repair so I now have an amp with a new board , no tubes I can use, no idea of the future warranty if I use ARC tubes although I have had a missed call form the Distributor.
I will keep you posted.
I do not blame ARC for this mess but they are responsible for their Australian Distributor and repair centres. As I said my experience means that I will never deal with several people in Australia or purchase ARC equipment.
Sorry but I have to correct you on one point. The VT100 Mk2 also had a fan and was less problematic than the Mk1. I had two Mk2's so I know. I had problems with my Mk2s but I caused the problems.
hopefully people considering Audio research for purchase will run in the other direction. Any company that has about 25 models in five years should scare you away.
A big hint that there just after your wallet.
Sorry, but you don’t know what you’re talking about; ARC products evolve much more slowly than you claim. For example, the Ref 5SE was in production for about 5 years. The current Ref DAC is 5 years on the market. The recently discontinued LS-27 was introduced in 2010.
If ARC was only after your wallet, the company wouldn't service its 40-year-old products.
I agree that grammar police have much to keep them busy here. For example the following sentence:
roxy541,765 posts03-30-2017 8:14pmJoking aside, a lot of women have very little consideration for their husbands interest in audio.
Does this mean that the women to whom you refer have multiple marriages? If so, did you forget the apostrophe after the "s" in husbands? Or, did you mean to indicate that each of these women had only one husband, in which case there should be an apostrophe after the "d" n husbands.
I am not a grammarian and don't normally let these things bother me, but I do like to point out stones in glass houses. What about you? Isn't this fun entertainment? I know you just committed a typo, but thought you might enjoy your own fallibility.
Wow what a thread! I can't believe all these people piling on the OP like he did something wrong. I guess their fellow Audio research owners… And nobody commented on that load of baloney posted by clearthink! If That's clear thinking I'd hate to see him on a bad day!! thom is one of the few voices of reason in this mess and he's taking hits for it. hopefully people considering Audio research for purchase will run in the other direction. Any company that has about 25 models in five years should scare you away. A big hint that there just after your wallet. Then if you missed that hint, you have the fact that they want to force you to buy their vastly overpriced Tubes for their tube gobbling gear. You honestly expect me to believe they do a better job screening then Andy at Vintage Tubes?! And the icing on the cake for me is that I'm not a huge fan of how most of their gear sounds. But I realize that may be subjective.
I have read the OPs initial post again and I think he may perhaps have misunderstood what the $3000 cost was for. I believe that the $3000 cost was not just for the new KT150 tubes but also for the new SE upgrade mainboard. Which would be inline with the cost I paid to upgrade my 250s to 250SEs.
When I purchased my ARC250s monos last year from a dealer in Sydney, they were like new Demos which I paid $9000 each (yes, we do get ripped off down under) to upgrade them to 250SEs. This cost not only included 2 new main boards but two new sets of KT150 tubes plus freight to and from Melbourne. No OPT replacements were required.
Also, if the dealer had sat on the repair for months and not returned his new tubes, he shouldn't blame the distributor or ARC. It appears that the blame lands squarely on the Brisbane dealer. I would be relating the whole debacle to ARC and Synergy Audio(ARC's Aussie distributor) via email.
Having said that, the quality of ARC gear hasn't been great for a while now. My tech and friend used to be the Authorised ARC tech for Australia when Audio Connection in Sydney was the ARC distributor. He has repaired a lot ARC gear for at least 10 years, He has been in the Hifi game for over 40 years (at one point owing a hifi store in the 70s) and has seen it all. He was able to rebuild two D125s from just their OPTs and Power Transformers (which were found at the dump) i.e. he is a very skilled technician.
The Ref 600s and VT100 Mk1 & 2 amps were known to be very problematic, they were constantly blowing up due to condensation forming on the vertically mounted PCBs and limited airflow due to the design of the casing (that is why the later 610s and 750s now have top mounted tubes and the VT100Mk3 employed fans). There have been also quality issues with OPTs and Power Transformers in the past 10 years. His workshop is filled with dead ARC OPTs and power transformers.
In spite of all these issues, he still advocates buying ARC gear and he feels that not only do they sound very good, they are very well built and their support is very good. He didn't have any issues with ARC supplying him with schematics and parts when he was working for the old distributor. Some High End companies will not even supply schematics and expect him to debug the problem by relaying the issue to them over the phone (incurring long distance charges) - basically expecting him to be being their (remote) hands and eyes.
The real issue here that no one mentioned is that ARC does not fuse the biasing resistors, so when a tube fails and they all do at some point it takes out the resistors and if the tube fails badly enough maybe a board.
Just my opinion : a manufacturer has to be legally responsible for who it contracted to be the sole distributor and its authorized dealers. That's what separates "grey market" from authorized.
I have never had any piece of audio equipment repaired where I thought it was inexpensive. Whether it was from the manufacturer or locally at a dealer (back when they existed). And when I did have something repaired at a local shop and found it was a bit less expensive, I had to take it back 2 or 3 times until it was fixed properly. If it is not a repair you can do yourself, you are guaranteed to pay through the nose anywhere you take it or send it. Same thing applies to audio equipment, cars, your house, etc.
Take a Thöress phono stage and an ARC phono stage to your most highly recommended tube amp technician and ask them which they’d prefer to service. One of these products will outlive its maker in terms of serviceability and the other one won’t.
There’s really nothing to argue about here, because Audio Research products have already outlived their maker. ARC founder William Z. Johnson died six years ago, yet ARC will still service his SP-1 preamplifier, which was introduced in 1970.
The few ARC products that the company can’t fully support are CD players, where parts for the mechanisms are no longer available. All of its amplifiers and preamplifiers can be serviced to original factory spec, or better. Please feel free to verify this with ARC directly or any ARC authorized dealer.
ARC service is legendary. That’s part of the reason why the products retain their value on the used market so well.
Thom, I understand that you don’t care for electronics that rely on circuit boards, and you’re certainly entitled to your preference. But to extend that preference to conclude that ARC products aren’t serviceable flies in the face of the facts.
This conversation is running a bit off the rails, but I’ll try to clarify my philosophy about vacuum tube circuit design and construction approaches before checking out. It’s only one man’s opinion …
Take a Thöress phono stage and an ARC phono stage to your most highly recommended tube amp technician and ask them which they’d prefer to service. One of these products will outlive its maker in terms of serviceability and the other one won’t.
One could argue that the product should always be serviced by the manufacturer – all well and good as long as they’re in business and in the same continent as you.
Of course, people will line up on both sides in terms of how they view their investment. I tend to think in terms of heirloom quality, but I think you knew that ;-)
In the linked photo, it may be difficult to make out the circuitry, but the Thöress is using tag strip construction - a close relative of turret board construction. The implementation is some of the most beautiful and robust I’ve ever seen. In the old days, this would have been called instrumentation grade. Much of this has been lost on us as circuit board construction has been adopted for cost savings and ease of manufacture by lower skilled, lower paid workers.
There are plenty of discussions on the sonics of circuit board construction vs. vintage construction methods (point to point, turret board, and tag strip). There are subtle differences between point to point and the other two traditional techniques, but for the sake of this discussion, let’s think of all of them as “traditional”.
The key sonic discussion points center on the significance of the added capacitance in the circuit board (the fiberglass/epoxy). Some will argue that the added capacitance is insignificant, and others will take the opposite stance. The other frequent discussion point is that with a circuit board, you don’t get to choose your “wire” (the circuit board traces). Think about this, the next time you ponder a $2K interconnect.
From a maintenance perspective, if the manufacturer goes out of business and the circuit board blows up, you’re out of luck. Not so with traditional wiring techniques.
I have no way of reliably fact checking the two contradictory comments below, but even if ARC can service every product they’ve ever made, I want to point out that I’d recommend taking a product’s construction methods into consideration, as circuit board construction would compromise a company’s ability to service it.
cleeds wrote:
ARC will service almost every product it has ever made over its 40+ year history to original factory spec, or better. So it’s obvious its products are "maintainable." It is not at all clear what point you’re trying to make here.
perfectpathtech wrote:
Tonykay- I sold my Classic 120’s 3 years ago after owning them for 7 Like yourself saved a long time to buy a used pair. The same mono blew up 3 times! Dumped them as-is. Sad part is gent I sold them to couldn’t repair it, he sent it to ARC, and they said it was irreparable!
When Bill Johnson passed and the company sold, first thing they did was throw away their vast parts supply for all previous products! Mr Johnson has to be rolling in his grave!
Note that I have no commercial interest in either Thöress or ARC, but I use these two products as examples of two highly regarded companies who embrace polar opposite construction philosophies.
Cleeds - I very much agree with you. I have not dealt with ARC service since Mr. Johnson has been gone, but I suspect they can still service anything they ever made (if you pay enough). Also I thought the use of printed circuit boards was fairly common these days. All equipment has problems, but I always thought ARC used high quality components. My Father's Dual 51, Dual 75 and SP3A are still around from when he bought them in the early 1970's. Although they have not been powered-up in years, I bet they still work.
I forgot we're talking about Audio Research.
They wouldn't dream of using turret board construction. The products
might run the risk of being maintainable decades from now.
ARC will service almost every product it has ever made over its 40+ year history to original factory spec, or better. So it's obvious its products are "maintainable." It is not at all clear what point you're trying to make here.
It’s very likely that the repair for the original poster’s
amp requires $20.00 in parts (I’m being generous and assuming boutique
parts)
jea48 wrote:
Hardly.
The Op stated a circuit board was
replaced. If the board replaced was a channel board, list price for the
board very well could be in the thousands of dollars. ARC cost alone of
the board 50% to 60% of retail + overhead.
My bad! I forgot we're talking about Audio Research. They wouldn't dream of using turret board construction. The products might run the risk of being maintainable decades from now.
Let's face it: Tube amplifiers require some care and maintenance. Unless you're willing to do it yourself, you'll need the support of a good dealer and, probably, a good manufacturer, too. The OP here obviously wasn't familiar with the amp he purchased, isn't familiar with how tube amps are serviced, and didn't get good service from his dealer. That's a prescription for disappointment. I'm sympathetic to his troubles, but it really has little to do with Audio Research. The reason ARC has survived for so long has as much to do with its customer service as it does its products.
Some sad anecdotes in this thread. Examples like these contribute to the “looks” audiophiles get from “normal” people – even those with equally passionate/extreme/expensive pursuits like wine, musical instrument, and vintage car collecting.
It’s very likely that the repair for the original poster’s amp requires $20.00 in parts (I’m being generous and assuming boutique parts) – the sort of repair such as a blown screen resistor that a competent guitar amp tech would bill an hours’ labor for. Let’s be generous and add another hour for ARC’s biasing procedure.
There are those in this thread who equivocate the maintenance costs with that of owning an exotic sports car. I consider this argument to be flawed. Periodic maintenance of a Ferrari is expensive. Maintaining an ARC amplifier is expensive. Therefore, all high performing amplifiers are complicated and expensive to maintain. Members of the club are suffering from confirmation bias.
I absolutely encourage audiophiles to understand their system architecture and how to maintain their gear. At issue here however, is that the industry (manufacturers/reviewers) treat these failure episodes as a rite of passage for audiophiles, as opposed to a component failure and potentially a design flaw. It's not an issue of an unsophisticated user. Parts fail, and on occasion, a shorting tube can take out a component. I get that. I also get that in most cases, the repair is simple and straight-forward.
I am in no way singling out Audio Research or saying that you will not enjoy their electronics. I am however encouraging you to decouple the concept of “difficult care and feeding” from audio quality and musical enjoyment. You have options and can vote with your checkbook.
No one is really talking about getting into the nuts and bolts of circuit design, just the most basic discussion that unwary buyers may want a heads up that there may be an increased chance of expensive repairs required down the line versus some other brands of tube amps due to the ARC lack of fuses. Some may care, others may just fit into the overall cost of ownership as you have.
Again, I feel for the OP and his issues with getting his amp diagnosed and repaired. Also, again, this wasn't an Audio Research caused problem, but a Dealer issue.
The main problem with the posts I saw here is that some took this as an opportunity to bash Audio Research without getting all the necessary information.
The majority of people have no idea how amplifiers work or the circuit designs involved. Therefore, to use this analogy, assuming that a person should know this is faulty thinking. Audio Research choses not to use fuses on their tubes because they chose to not do so. That is their choice. I have seen many different circuit designs. to each their own.
Same with cars. Who among us is a auto design/repair expert? I know circuitry pretty well and I definitely know cars very well.
I'm not going to go through the motions of purchasing an amplifier and get into the nuts and bolts of the circuit design. First thing first. Does it sound wonderful in my system? will the company be around later to repair it? Can I afford it?
To expect a normal person to know advanced circuit design is not realistic and is just presented to make more arguments against a company they don't like in the first place.
The OP needed rational opinions and help. Not Audio Research bashing.
If the dealer is an Authorized Audio Research repair facility, then he really didn't have a choice but to send it there first. However, I've learned to contact the manufacturer to find out who are authorized service facilities and where they are before getting my expensive equipment worked on.
That said, the negative experience shouldn't make you turn from Audio Research. It would instead make me very cautious about using that dealer again for repairs.
I listened to my old Claire Marlow CD Let it go last night and I forgot how good that music was.
I used the amp for the rear channels of my home theatre
system which I only use occasionally because I travel a lot for work and I
mainly listen to music........... Especially when I
could have bought a small car for the original cost of the amplifier in
Australia.
I'm curious as to why you would buy a tube amp--& a super expensive one, it sounds?--"just" for the rear channels of your home theatre
system? To each his own, but I'd be thinking SS for HT.
It does sound like you had a horrible "repair" experience tho (where the thing wasn't even repaired?). I'd be thinking--what are reliable brands of audio gear sold in your country, with availability of good service. (I'm sure you are, now).
Yes Jetter, I always whine. Maybe it is because my amp has been for warranty repair for a couple of weeks or a month. I am straight on the blower whining till I get it back. Works well whining, it only takes an additional 10 months when you whine. Can just imagine Jetter with his amp away for warranty repair, don't send it back yet fellas I don't really need it. Keep it for another year. Great credibility though.
Audio Research Products are designed for use in sophisticated Music Reproduction Systems and they are to be used by sophisticated users or alternatively those users who have the means and the inclinations to employ the services of a Qualified Authorized Dealer to help maintain their Music Reproduction System. What appears to have happened here is we have an unsophisticated user who compares his Audio Research product to a car and he is unhappy with the expense and the inconvenience of his Audio Research product. To continue to compare this to a car which is a silly comparison as all will agree it is the same as if the user purchased a new Lamborghini and then burned his clutch out at 1,000 miles because he does not know know to use a manual transmission vehicle and then wants to have it repaired under warrantee but only using the discounted aftermarket parts of his choosing and then saying the car has a design flaw because automatic transmission vehicles do not burn out clutches.
This user would be much happier if he purchased basic equipment for his Music Reproduction System but then of course he would have less to complain about too.
Did you not agree with bdp24's post above? It's not the maintenance cost that is the problem, its the design philosophy of not fusing the output tubes. Even though you will you pay ARC twice as much for the same tubes you could buy for less elsewhere, eventually one of those tubes is bound to go bad and your sending the amp back to ARC. This versus just changing a fuse. ARC knows their amps blow resistors.
There are a lot of other brands equal to the Ferrari 458 amp that are designed to not suffer this problem.
Its all about the cost of ownership. A 30k mile service for a Honda Civic is less than $100 and the same service done on a Ferrari 458 can run $2500. Both cars take you from point A to point B. One should be an educated customer and consider the cost of ownership when making a purchase decision.
Bingo, Thom. Different designers use the same tube (and other electronic parts) in their respective circuits differently, some using parts way "over-rated" (able to handle much greater voltages than they are asked to in a particular circuit, for instance), others using parts rated just barely above what they are called upon to handle in the circuit they are in. Roger Modjeski (yes him again) of Music Reference says that while building the amps for the Beveridge ESL Loudspeaker, he learned that using parts rated twice what they need to be in a circuit is not enough of a margin, as voltage surges can and sometimes do occur. He started using parts rated five or even ten times what the circuit required, to build long, trouble-free life into an amp. He fuses each and every output tube in his power amps so that when a tube goes bad (as they all eventually do), or even a new tube has a short (not unheard of), the fuse will blow, preventing the amp from self-destructing. When that happens, you need only replace the fuse and the bad tube, not have surgery performed on your amp.
Audio Research chooses not to fuse the output tubes in their power amps, which is why when a tube goes bad in one it takes some of the amps parts (from a single resistor to a complete circuit board) along with it. ARC feels that there is a sonic penalty paid for fusing output tubes, and chooses not to. That’s their choice, and of the owners of ARC power amps. But those owners should be aware of that design element, the possible consequences resulting from it, and the likelyhood of repairs being needed every time an output tube goes bad. To me, building a power amp that way is like building a car that, when a tire blows, it takes out the cars suspension. Instead of having to replace only the tire, you must also repair the cars suspension. No thanks.
This Audio Research story is all too familiar and it both angers and saddens me - sad on behalf of the purchaser and angry because occurrences like this this scare customers away from vacuum tube electronics as well as esoteric audio in general.
Remember, that during WW-II, the military used vacuum tubes for their field communications. Circuit designs can be elegant, simple, functional and reliable if the designer so chooses and there are many purveyors of vacuum tube electronics who adopt this philosophy with no sonic penalties.
Hello Jea 48, I have found my tubes and as you say they are with the dealer in Brisbane. I will be speaking with him today to have them returned. I have kept all email conversations which can prove all I have said.
As a final word suppose you but a car brand new off the show room floor, call it car A. You use it occasionally and after 21/2 years it breaks down and you take it back to where you brought it. The car is away for four months and you keep asking about it. Finally when you enquire about it and copy the manufacturer in the email something gets done. It gets transported 2,000 kilometers away to be fixed by a better mechanic. They tell you the computer that operates all the electronics' has blown and it was caused by one of the spark plugs. You have spare spark plugs so send them to be fitted. Even though they are the same spark plugs the mechanic won't fit them because you have to buy the special spark plugs (made by the same aftermarket manufacturer) from the car maker at a huge mark up!!! Eventually they return the vehicle without any spark plugs but say as soon as you buy the plugs from them it will be ready to drive. You wonder how they tested it and which of the original plugs caused the damage to the computer because none of them are labelled, just all in a box marked faulty.
Prior to the purchase of car A you purchase a second hand car - car B. The car is out of warranty when you purchase it so you hold no illusions about who will have to pay for repairs. The CD player/radio stops working after five years of ownership and you write to the manufacturer because they are not available in the local shops. The manufacturer sends a new CD player/radio free of charge including postage and you fit it and it works perfectly.
All I'm asking is which car would you buy next time?
Based on what I have read, it appears that problem is with the distributor/dealer, not with Audio Research. I know that is small consolation. The only way Audio Research or any company for that matter would know of problems with their distributors or dealers is when someone contacts them and complains.
If the dealer/distributor told me that the unit was shipped to the manufacturer for evaluation and repair, I would contact the manufacturer directly to discuss the issues.
Also, I'm not sure about the failure to return your tubes. I'm thinking it may have something to do with the dealer. Or maybe Audio Research has a written policy that says that repairs will be made with Audio Research recommended tubes and customer supplied tubes will be discarded. Before one jumps to conclusions, read the manufacturer's legal policies and notices first. I'm not saying this is the case, but. one never knows.
I do understand Audio Research's policy that they only perform repairs using Audio Research supplied tubes. That limits their liability. for example, a customer's bad tube taking out a complete circuit shouldn't be their fault or responsibility for repair. If Audio Research's tubes failed and damaged other components, then yes, Audio Research should step up and take care of the problem, if it is under warranty.
So, for all the people bagging on Audio Research, slow down and think a little. Diagnosing problems cost money. Repairing under warranty cost money. If the customer caused the problem by using faulty tubes (not supplied by Audio Research), why should they be responsible for that.
Every company has a legal department or legal representation. no company is immune from that. Costs are costs. There are some things I don't agree with. This isn't one of them.
Tube rollers take their chances. If I was planning on rolling tubes, I would call the technical representative and ask them if it is okay to do so and get their input first.
Tubes, like transistors have specific specifications that are used to design circuits. Different tubes may have slightly different specifications. If the manufacturer tells me I can plug and play with various tubes, fine. If they say don't and the unit is expensive and under warranty, I'm not playing with this.
When I upgrade amplifiers with newer, better transistors, I made darn certain that the new transistors are within spec of the older ones. Or I have to redesign the entire circuit to accommodate the new transistors.
Lots of opinions here about tube rolling. That is all that is, opinions. When the amp explodes, they won't be there for you.
I call Audio Research about putting KT150 tubes in my REF 250 (not SE) amp. They told me clearly that significant upgrades have to be made to the amp to accommodate the KT150 tubes over the KT120 tubes. new transformers, circuits, etc. I don't know if that is true or not, but, I'm not going to do it.
I hope your situations gets resolved to your satisfaction. Call Audio Research and talk with them.
Tonykay- I sold my Classic 120's 3 years ago after owning them for 7 Like yourself saved a long time to buy a used pair. The same mono blew up 3 times! Dumped them as-is. Sad part is gent I sold them to couldn't repair it, he sent it to ARC, and they said it was irreparable! When Bill Johnson passed and the company sold, first thing they did was throw away their vast parts supply for all previous products! Mr Johnson has to be rolling in his grave!
@thazeldean , you are certainly entitled to your opinion, as are others here. I know how you feel. I, for one, will never buy BAT gear again due to many issues.
That said, folks who complain about one company just had the misfortune of poor customer service and/or design flaws. Not unlike folks who have had issues with a shipping company. Some folks have been burned by FedEx, USPS, UPS, etc. They will never use these shipping company services again.
Search the web long enough and you will find good and bad about any and all companies, including Allnic (which I also own).
I agree that it does seem difficult to defend ARC's repair policy, and I own an ARC preamp. Having read this thread, I would probably have it serviced somewhere else. Fortunately for me, RHB Sound Dezign is close by. Bob does great work.
That said, it is difficult to compare the OP's story of a damaged amplifier with a damaged remote control. Comparing ARC to Allnic service in this case is like comparing apples to oranges in my opinion.
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