I recently bought a Canary CD-100 CD player. I swapped out the ElectroHarmonix 6922 tubes for Amperex NOS made in Holland since I had read a review stating that the tubes it came with were too bright. Unfortunately, it's still too bright for my tastes. Does anyone have a 6922 they would recommend that's a bit warmer? Thanks!
@steakster "My experience with EH 6922 tubes is that they were too warm and diffuse sounding. I didn’t care for them."
+1
I generally dislike the 6922, and now do my best to avoid it. In my opinion, it puts forth a hard, glassy, and even shrill sound that can reach the point where I cannot endure it. It takes a back seat to the 12AX7, 12AU7, and 6SN7, in that order.
That said, so much equipment employs this tube, and as you have come with your query, we need to find some variant that produces sound we can live with. I also agree several of the Amperex variants do pretty well, though sometimes not to the required degree. I found the grey / black / smoked glass GE 6DJ8 provides that, without losing resolution or refinement, at very reasonable cost, and recommend you give it a try
I haven't rolled a 6DJ8/equivalent in a while, but found the Mullard to be too warm and smooth, and favored a Telefunken in the particular phono stage I was using at the time. But, the Mullard might be the ticket for you--there are various primers on the general characteristics of the different brands, recognizing that the 'branding' was not always a reflection of who made the tube or where. I do recommend that you rely on a trusted vendor-- too many questionable tubes being offered on the Net. Perhaps some are bargains if you know what to look for but, even having used tubes as long as I have- since the early '70s, I prefer to deal with trusted sources.
How does your room sound in general? If you clap your hands together is there a loud ping behind it or does it sound natural? You just might need to work on your listening area, speaker and your seat placement. I recommend get your room and placement to sound it’s best before working on tweaks and cabling.
Some quick ideas on CD players. Herbie tube dampers since you have tubes, upgrade the power cord if it’s a stock computer one, then the interconnects to maybe something on the warmer side. I never felt my current CD player was bright but one of the best improvements I did to my player was change out the fuses; really opened the player up and has a more relaxed presentation without losing anything. Sounds much closer to my analog rig that I find I play it far less now.
Try the clap test first; not a soft clap. If you don’t like how that sounds work on your room first until it the ping is gone or close to. Good to have a friend help you so one can clap in other areas of the room such as where your speakers are placed while you sit in your listening area, and do the same where you listen. Take your time, as it takes a lot of time. Once you think you have it then play with your speakers firing straight ahead into the room and then play with toeing them in if needed.
Will help describing your room and associated equipment, cables, size of your room, speaker and sitting placement.
I've been experimenting with 6922 family tubes to tame some of the issues you are having. In my PS Audio BHK Stereo 250 amp, I've found Voskhod "Rocket" 6n23p tubes to be just the ticket. The Reflektor factory's tubes haven't appealed to me so much. I also liked the Voskhods very much in a Music Reference RM5III preamp I used to own. In my PS Audio BHK preamp, I greatly prefer Raytheon 7308's to brighter Amperex, Phillips, EH, & Siemens 6922s and 6DJ8s. The prevailing consensus among most audiophiles is that American and European 6DJ8, 6922s, etc. are the best but I find them to be a bit bright in many applications. As always, YMMV. What sounds good in one application isn't always the case in another.
I suggest u call Andy at Vintage Tube Services and speak to an expert. It sounds like Mullard may be what you need, he can tell you about the sonics of the 6922/E88CC Mullard vs. other brands. But premium tubes are not cheap.
The new production JJ/Tesla E88CC is a very warm tube and quiet tube that I have used in a CDP with success. I've also used it in a headphone amp. It's cheap so give it a try, not much to lose.
Have rolled quite a few 6922/7308/6DJ8. The early Siemens 6922/E88CC with gray shield was one of my favorites and always sounded excellent, never bright. Sometimes they may be labeled RCA, made in West Germany.
I used the Siemens CCA grey-plate tubes in my tube DAC I used to manufacture. Excellent tube, fast and clean. They can be $450 a pair from Germany on ebay, but worth it.
If your system still sounds bright with this tube, then there is something else wrong in your system, probably too much jitter from the digital source, or may be your preamp.
I’m wondering if the problem is indeed your CDP and tube selection. With regard to your Amperex, there are many variants and levels of that brand leading up to the PQ. The higher you go, the more refined the top-end.
I have also rolled quite a few NOS 6922/7308/6DJ8 in my DAC. I did not find them bright, but found differences in the bass slam and sweetness of the mids. Siemens and Telefunken are tubes that have open, dynamic sonics. Their top-end is extended but smooth, never bright. I would not use many of the new production tubes as a reference since few of them present linear sonics. Possibly try the JJ/Tesla E88CC recommended by @newbee .
Can you tell us what the rest of your system consists of? Room size, any acoustic treatments? It may be this CDP does not have the right synergy with one of your components, such as speakers, ICs, or preamp.
I have rolled a LOT of different NOS 6922's in various amps, pre-amps and DACs over the past 20 years. Stay away from the newer orange label Amperex 6922's, as well as the green label ones. The early 1960s U.S. white labels are less forward sounding and have stronger bass than the comparable Holland versions, and well balanced all around. Prices are not near as high as the Telefunkens, which are wonderful tubes as well, but a bit "cooler" sounding (not as warm). The Tele's are hard to beat for detail and clarity, but the Amperex ones I mentioned come quite close. Mullards are warmer, sweeter, and not edgy in general.
@ 25105 regarding Voskhod 6n23p tubes. As to their sound in the BHK250 - warm in the sense that the mid range seems to have slightly greater emphasis, lots of "air" around instruments, treble is detailed but definitely not etched, bass isn't fat or bloated. They allow a more relaxed perspective as if you moved back a couple rows in the audience. I've got several sets of 70's and early 80's Voskhods I accumulated in my many years of collecting gear and tubes. FWIW, I did order a couple more sets from an Ebay seller in the Ukraine because the desirable vintages aren't commonly found here in the USA. I've not received them yet so I can't say what I think of the seller. https://www.ebay.com/usr/tubesandsound?_trksid=p2047675.l2559
Go to Upscale Audio website. Good coverage, user reviews, some vids and descriptions of 6922s and variants. Kevin Deal knows tubes. There is a certain synergy with tubes in each individual system. Especially when various components use them.
When I retuned my VT100 MKII, Audio Research gave me the option of using JAN Phillips 6922 tubes (actually, 6DJ8 tubes) and they provided much more extended bass and smoother highs. That said, I do not know that they would be an improvement on the Amperex tubes as regards the highs.
I also recommend Kevin Deal of Upscale Audio. I bought 2 NOS Telefunken E88CC/6922's.
Here is my excerpt from: The ups and downs of tube vs. SS...
'Also while researching phono preamplifiers I found out about 'tube rolling'. However I thought that tube rolling is a expensive proposition even though the tubes you roll maybe not that expensive, after rolling 5 to 6 or 7 pairs of tubes, the money spent would add up pretty quickly.
So I decide to go for the gusto and buy up. I bought a pair of NOS 6DJ8/ECC88 Telefunken West Germany with diamond mark matched pair for $195 plus Tektronix 576 curve tracer matching for $20, shipping $10 and $4 for insurance for a total of $229 from Brent Jessee Recording and Supply, Inc. Keep in mind it is very important that you buy vacuum tubes from reputable dealers. That being said Brent Jessee Recording and Supply, Inc. has a 30 day return policy with a 20% restocking fee. After less than 30 days I decide to return them.
After seeing Kevin Deal's of Upscale Audio NOS Telefunken E88CC/6922 youtube video I bought a Platinum Grade, Cryoed, matched pair of NOS Telefunken E88CC/6922's for $454. For a total of $853 I bought a Parks Audio Budgie Tube Phono preamplifier and pair of NOS Telefunken E88CC/6922's vacuum tubes with the transparency, depth, wide soundstage, and dynamic range as described above with an added 3 Dimensional sound quality I had never heard before. '
Those Telefunkens from Upscale are special. I had a Audio Note Kits DAC 2.1 built for me, and it came with Electro Harmonix tubes I believe. I was looking for really good NOS 6922, and the search led me to Upscale. The matched pair was pricey, but the difference was remarkable, and well worth the cost.
They get the newer made Goden lion tubes they sound pretty respectable and decent priced or just buy vintage Brent Jesse recordings ,can get you whatever balance you are looking for, but any good matched vintage pairs will cost $150-500 a pair depending on. Rarest. Mallards the Real one Are usually the warmest . Phillips owned them s well as pampered And the very good Phillips miniwatt tubes D getters are the oldest version usually and on average best sounding. The Mazda silver foil about $375 a pair will last for years and give you great warm Detailed performance. This tube is a Major step up and Brent Stands by his recommendations ,every system is a bit different He will exchange to get the balance you are looking for. Your interconnects ,and speaker cable quality can also have a huge effect in performance . If running a separate Dac, that too can Make a sonic impact .you made a blank statement ?amp,? Preamp If power to med priced all too often crappy stock stolen coupling caps. I have been into every face of audio for over 40 years and The weakest link are the ones that show their ugly head first Your tubes most like are cheap stock tubes ,I not changed yet.
Hi , I have a SEP low power amp that takes a single driver tube of your requirement 6DJ8 . So I purchased the following - NOS E88CC Telefunken, Tesla, CCa Siemens , Phillips SQ, Mullard , JAN Phillips ECG, Russian 6N1P. So now at about $1000 dollars later I put them all in for evaluation . I run Zu speakers which are bright . I avoid silver Interconnects and speaker cables to avoid added brightness . So the results are exactly what you’re asking . Number 1 is the Telefunken ( absolutely ) . Not too bright , flat response and Very Musical . Number 2 is the NOS Tesla E88CC Red Tip ( just like the Telefunken , but more liquid ). Number 3 is the Siemens CCa ( like the Telefunken , but a pinch more brightness ( I run this with KT120 power tubes) . Number 4 is the Russian Rocket ( the good one ). After that it’s a mixed bag . The Holland Phillips is Too Bright . The American JAN Phillips is good, but plain . And the Mullard is my least favorite ( it’s like a blanket over my speakers ( Sorry To The Mullard Guys ). However the Mullard is good in multi driver tube amps as the phase splitter . My music source is digital with a Schiit Yiggy , a Rogue Pre with NOS Tektronix Telefunkens . My power tubes are NOS GEC KT88 and NOS GEC KT66 smoked glass ( yes the real stuff ). Rectifier is a NOS WE 422a or a NOS RCA 5U4G Black plate or a NOS Mullard GZ34 double getter . So my advise is to go NOS Telefunken E88CC . Also if you read the Tone Descriptions on the Brent Jesse site , you will find they are spot on . If I may offer any additional input , please ask . Best Wishes and Happy Listening , Mike.
@buellrider97 excellent post thank you. My preamp uses six 6DJ8 tubes so cost is always a factor for me. Currently using the 7DJ8 Masuhitsa/National Union tubes from Upscale, I would not call them warm to me they are very neutral extended at both frequency extremes and quite well balance. Also excellent for the money. My preamp is not bright at all BTW as always it's not just the tube also the implementation!
Mullard does not make tubes anymore. Electro Harmonix (EH) owned by an American makes EH, Mullard, Genelex and Tung Sol tubes in a factory in Saratov Russia. The Mullard, Genelex and Tung Sol tubes have nothing to do with the original brands other than using their names. New production tubes also come from China.
That's not to say that the EH Mullards are bad tubes, many people like them and they are much cheaper than NOS tubes. Also, all the old stock tubes would have been used up by now if there wasn't current production tubes. So give them a try, if you want, you won't be out a lot of money if you don't like them.
I had a similar experience searching for the tubes that I thought were best when I bought an Oppo that had been modded by Modwright - it's called "tube rolling" and it can be expensive. I finally found a dealer that was most helpful and you might give him a try- for advice if nothing else. His contact info. is as follows: Andy Bowman at Vintage Tube Service as an expert in audio tubes- 1-616-454-3467
I’ve tried about 5 variants; they’re very different. Currently using 7308 Amperex PQ (ultra premium 6DJ8/6922) Holland.... same as Philips SQ Special Quality type. Also have tried the 7308 Amperex PQ (Super Premium 6DJ8) USA.
The Amperex white labels (produced before Bugle Boys) have sweeter mids and smoother highs.
Most of you have more experience with 6DJ8s than I. But I recently started using a Moscode power amp (tube input, Mosfet output). The 6DJ8s were nameless generic Russian, not even a "brand". I thought surely I could improve on them. I had a pair of NOS American-made gold-pin Amperex. According to some online discussions, it was "the best" 6DJ8 ever made. Even if that’s just bs, I figured it had to be good, certainly better than no-name Russians. They weren’t nearly as good — big disappointment.The difference wasn’t minor: the Russians were better in every respect, and I put them back in.
No break-in time on the Amperex, which might be a factor... but the gap it would have to close seems insurmountable. I just wish those Russians did have a name, I’d buy a lot more.
New production Russian tubes are made by Electro Harmonix/ New Sensor, web page: shop.ehx.com
They make a number of different brands, so maybe you can recognize what you have from the pictures on their web site.
As far as NOS Russian tubes go, the Voskhod rocket logo 6n23p, which is their version of our 6dj8/6922 tubes, have a good reputation for sound but are often noisy. I think Upscale Audio may have some and you can find them on eBay. Make sure you ask about noise and returns before you buy.
My comment about the Mullards, earlier in this thread, concerned an older tube. I have no experience with the current tube offered under the brand, and only suggested the Mullard because it sounded very warm-- too warm to my ears- in a Manley Steelhead I owned some time ago. The risk of counterfeits is great for sought-after tubes. And even if not bogus, there was a lot of cross factory manufacture back in the day. I bought some tubes that were branded on the glass as Made in Great Britain, but turned out they were manufactured by another company (forget which one) in the U.S. (not a 6922, it was a tube for my Allnic phono--E810F).
Phillips SQ Miniwatt E88CC, to me, always had a warmish character without being dark, and had silky sweet highs. I’m so glad I kept a couple of lightly used pairs in my stash, with ModWright now installing his 6922 analog output stage in my Oppo UDP 205. Hard to find these but worth it. I have a pair of SQ Miniwatt E188CC to try, but may well have a different character. For current new tubes, I find the Gold Lion 6922 a warmish, full bodied tube as well. Jim McShane has a sale going on these if anyone is in the market.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
