Good luck!
Moving up the Harbeth line
I was fortunate to move my home office to another room which is a bit bigger than the previous one. Dimensions are 12x13 with almost 20-foot ceilings. As much as I love my Harbeth P3esr's, I can't help but notice that they've been outclassed by the bigger room, especially the high ceiling. This pair of speakers has been a mainstay in my home office/study for a number of years, and I find it to be a perfect fit for my listening habits and music preferences. But in the new setting, it's not able to fill the room as well as it used to. For examples, horns and piano now sound much smaller and distant. So that got me thinking of an upgrade. I have been using a Raven Audio Blackhawk MK3 for a few months and would want to stick with it if possible. There are very few speakers that have allowed me to make an emotional connection with the music, and Harbeth is certainly one of them. So my preference is to stay with the brand.
Now, before the 'search bar is your best friend' folks come swinging at me, I have read a few threads on similar topics but they all seem to be inconclusive, or at least I'm not able to decipher a reasonable consensus. Having spent way too much money on this addiction, err, hobby, in the last 12 months, I have to resort to buying used equipment only, and that too has to wait for at least 2-3 months. So, doing an in-house demo is going to be difficult if not impossible. And, AFAIK, there are no dealers nearby (Dallas area) either.
I would love to hear from people who have moved up the Harbeth food chain. The M30.x seems to be a logical next step, but I see an equal number of negative opinions (too polite, too boxy, pipe and slippers) as positive ones. Is there anyone who thinks that the M30 retains the same magic as the P3esr's but serves it in relatively bigger portions? Because that's what I'm mainly looking for to be honest -- a bigger version of P3esr. Or do you think the cons negate the pros offered by the bigger cabinet size?
Next up is SHL5+. Again, the opinions vary widely. Some are saying that this particular model deviates the most from the classic Harbeth sound. Another concern is that my room might be too small for them (?). Also, I cannot pull them more than one and a half feet from the front wall. Is that going to result in ugly bass problems?
I'm not against trying another brand, but would prefer an opinion that is based on an actual comparison with Harbeth speakers.
Now, before the 'search bar is your best friend' folks come swinging at me, I have read a few threads on similar topics but they all seem to be inconclusive, or at least I'm not able to decipher a reasonable consensus. Having spent way too much money on this addiction, err, hobby, in the last 12 months, I have to resort to buying used equipment only, and that too has to wait for at least 2-3 months. So, doing an in-house demo is going to be difficult if not impossible. And, AFAIK, there are no dealers nearby (Dallas area) either.
I would love to hear from people who have moved up the Harbeth food chain. The M30.x seems to be a logical next step, but I see an equal number of negative opinions (too polite, too boxy, pipe and slippers) as positive ones. Is there anyone who thinks that the M30 retains the same magic as the P3esr's but serves it in relatively bigger portions? Because that's what I'm mainly looking for to be honest -- a bigger version of P3esr. Or do you think the cons negate the pros offered by the bigger cabinet size?
Next up is SHL5+. Again, the opinions vary widely. Some are saying that this particular model deviates the most from the classic Harbeth sound. Another concern is that my room might be too small for them (?). Also, I cannot pull them more than one and a half feet from the front wall. Is that going to result in ugly bass problems?
I'm not against trying another brand, but would prefer an opinion that is based on an actual comparison with Harbeth speakers.
81 responses Add your response
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So I added a REL T/Zero and spread out the speakers by 6 inches on each side. Made a really big difference. The imaging, soundstage depth and width definitely improved noticeably. However, I still feel that the scale, especially when reproducing piano, bass guitar, and horns is not as large - not to be confused with loud -- as I would like. Other than that, it is unbelievable how amazing the P3ESRs sound, and how well they fill the room. After making these changes, I thought I was done. But no!!! A nice pair of used M30.1 in rosewood showed up, and I just couldn't resist. Hope to get it in 3-5 days. I was planning to keep both, but got a very good offer for my P3ESRs, so they're leaving tomorrow. I seriously hope that I don't come to regret my decision. |
To those who commented on the C7s, I agree that the room, associated equipment, and setup make a huge difference. I only heard them once for a short duration, and it is quite possible that it was a one-off. I would love to audition it again, but unfortunately there's no way to do that right now. Moving on to the HL5s, I think they might be too much given the room size and listening distance. They might work, but given that my ability to position them properly in the home office is rather limited, it's a risky proposition. 40.x is pretty much out of question -- I just don't see how they will fit my room, aesthetics, and most importantly my budget. At this point, I'm leaning heavily in the direction of 30.1s. Would love to get 30.2 but I don't think I can find a used pair around $3k. From what I have gathered thus far, they retain the sonic qualities of P3esr but serve them in a bigger, fuller platter. Just what the good doctor ordered. These seem to be the goldilocks of the Harbeth lineup, at least for my specific requirements. For now, this is what I plan to do. Try the P3esr's with my REL T/Zero in conjunction with Blackhawk's dedicated sub out. But eventually, and knowing myself, I would most likely give the 30.x a try. Having said that, I wonder if there is another speaker that retains the sonic qualities of Harbeth but is tube-friendly. I rather like my Blackhawk and would like to keep it if at all possible. The problem is that I have never met an efficient speaker that I really liked. I have auditioned the Klipsch Heritage line (except LaScalas), Devore O/96, and a few standmount models from Proacs, but none has appealed to me like the Harbeths. I understand that these are amazing speaker, and I don't intend to offend the owners, but just not my cup of tea. If someone can suggest non-horn speakers that are efficient and have a similar sound signature to Harbeth, I'm all ears. |
30.2 perfect. the voicing is more forgiving than the 30.1. 5's too big for sure, they need room. you had a bad experience with the C7ES3 but there was something wrong with the system you heard them in, they are by far the richest, sweetest sounding Harbeth and are magical but might be too much with your Raven amp. P3s are nice but require more power than is obvious to really open up. |
Re best Power option. I have read many HB owners prefer SS with 100+ wpc, doubling down as ohms get lower. They may have larger rooms though. I agree that 20wpc of tube may short change you a bit. Between models my ears enjoy the HL over 30's or 40's. As 2Left mentioned I too heard the 30's and 40's in two different same size hotel rooms and the 30's sounded better in that smaller room. If I lived in Dallas-did once many years ago- I would make an appt. with Danny at GR Research. Besides having a great resource so close you also apparently support your local manufacturers. I am anxious to visit Danny and get a listen to his speakers. Good luck to you!! |
Because of the twenty foot ceiling in that room you need a bigger harbeth i do not think the 30 or the shl5 would be enough maaybe but i would try the 40 in that space it would bring out the sound you would want and not be distant or weak at all but that is a major step from the p3esr sound it is a full range speaker no sub needed but you might not like such a large change i would go with the spendor s100 used same designer but an even bigger and better sound for a lot less money. |
I ran the SHL5+ for a few years relatively close to the front wall (probably 1.5 feet, as you're considering doing), and I consistently had bass issues I was never quite able to solve. I'm not keen on over-generalization from a single case study, but I do suspect they in most applications they need a considerable amount of distance from the front wall to perform their best and avoid these kinds of problems. I had thought this would not be an issue because of the front porting, but in my case I was wrong about that. In your case, I would definitely be leaning towards the M30 if you don't stick with the P3ESR. |
Also @whipsaw and @big_greg -- both the M30 and SHL5+ remain very high on my wish list. I need to decide which one will be a better fit for my listening room. I feel that M30 is probably going to be in the sweet spot that I'm looking for, i.e. retain the same characteristics of P3 but offer a bigger scale, and just the right size for the room. @big_greg -- how far are your SHL5 speakers from the front wall? As I mentioned, I can only place the speakers up to one and a half feet from the front wall. |
@mspot -- you might be right about the power specs on the Blackhawk. But from now having owned it for a few months, I can tell you that this unit goes just as loud, with appropriate dynamics, as my previous Cronus Magnum II which was rated at 100 watts/channel. But I've also read that Harbeth seems to favor solid state more than valve. So that is a possibility that I might explore eventually. Having said that, looking for tube friendly, high efficiency speakers is not out of the running. My concerns are twofold though -- I've never warmed up to a few high efficiency speakers I have listened to, namely various Klipsch Heritage models and Devore O/96. Second, I fear that I won't be able to experience the Harbeth sound, which to me is something very special. |
Appreciate the responses. So I measured the distance again, and I was a bit off. I sit almost 9 feet away from the speakers, not that it makes that big of a difference. So the previous room was not that much smaller at 10x13 but had 10 foot ceilings. I suspect the high ceilings in the study are contributing to some of the problems I mentioned. I have a REL T/Zero in another room where it's hooked up to a sound bar. I will try it out this weekend. I called Raven Audio and they say that in order to benefit from the subwoofer crossover function, I cannot use REL's preferred method of using the Speakon connector/speaker binding posts. I have to use the specific sub out connections on the amp. I will give it a shot first, and then think about moving up to a bigger Rel like T5, but only if needed. @yogiboy I think you might be right. Even if I were to buy a HL5+ or M30, I would keep the P3esr's until and unless I'm 100% sure that the upgrade is worth it. Otherwise, it's quite easy to resell used Harbeth speakers without incurring much of a loss. |
If you're sitting that close to the speakers, they should be great. As others have mentioned, consider more power, subs, and/or room treatments. I have both SHL5 and P3ESR. The SHL5 are not too big for that room. My friend has 40.2s in a smaller space and has also had P3ESR in the same space. Both sounded fantastic with all those things I mentioned, more power, subs, and room treatment. |
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+1 @mspot As a long time Harbeth user I have owned the M30.1, C7 and many P3s. I think the M30 is too big for that size room. There is something about the P3 that after trying the others just keep me coming back to them! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqFIaiPT_kY |
In a 12x13 room and listening 7 ft away, the P3ESR should work well. I think that your Blackhawk amplifier at 20w/ch may not be providing enough dynamic headroom. However, I see that it has a built-in high pass crossover that you can engage for the main speakers while combining with a subwoofer. This would allow the P3ESR to play more dynamically, and you would benefit from a subwoofer adding bass extension. My suggestion is to start by adding a subwoofer to your system. See Raven Audio's description of the crossover feature: https://www.ravenaudio.com/product/blackhawk-mk3/ |
I moved up from toe P3s to the 30.1, and am happy. It is the natural sonic progression, with the same signature, coupled with the advantage of more bass and a larger soundstage. To be fair, though, I haven't auditioned the HL5+, and there are differing opinions of them. Many absolutely love them, while a small percentage find them to be a touch bright. No doubt that they would be a further step up from the 30.1/30.2 in terms of bass and soundstage, but the sound apparently isn't identical to the smaller monitors. The additional complication is the associated equipment. With all due respect to Alan Shaw, who is famously agnostic about amps (well, largely), they do make a difference, in my experience. |
I am a dealer and am local to you. Feel free to reach out - that emotional connection is what I build my systems around. If you don’t get that, it doesn’t matter how much detail retrieval you can achieve. I also prefer close field settings so it sounds like we might be a match lol. I would be happy to discuss your journey, share my thoughts, and have you over to listen to some tunes with beverage. Feel free to bring the Raven over - I’ve known Dave for seven or eight years now and would have no problem ‘playing’ with his gear. |