Moving up the Harbeth line

BTW, I purposely left out the C7ES3 model. Heard them at a friend's house a few years ago, and found them to be a bit too high energy for my taste.

Also, I sit about 7 feet away from the speakers.

Appreciate the responses. So I measured the distance again, and I was a bit off. I sit almost 9 feet away from the speakers, not that it makes that big of a difference. So the previous room was not that much smaller at 10x13 but had 10 foot ceilings. I suspect the high ceilings in the study are contributing to some of the problems I mentioned.

I have a REL T/Zero in another room where it's hooked up to a sound bar. I will try it out this weekend. I called Raven Audio and they say that in order to benefit from the subwoofer crossover function, I cannot use REL's preferred method of using the Speakon connector/speaker binding posts. I have to use the specific sub out connections on the amp. I will give it a shot first, and then think about moving up to a bigger Rel like T5, but only if needed.

@yogiboy I think you might be right. Even if I were to buy a HL5+ or M30, I would keep the P3esr's until and unless I'm 100% sure that the upgrade is worth it. Otherwise, it's quite easy to resell used Harbeth speakers without incurring much of a loss.

@mspot -- you might be right about the power specs on the Blackhawk. But from now having owned it for a few months, I can tell you that this unit goes just as loud, with appropriate dynamics, as my previous Cronus Magnum II which was rated at 100 watts/channel. But I've also read that Harbeth seems to favor solid state more than valve. So that is a possibility that I might explore eventually.

Having said that, looking for tube friendly, high efficiency speakers is not out of the running. My concerns are twofold though -- I've never warmed up to a few high efficiency speakers I have listened to, namely various Klipsch Heritage models and Devore O/96. Second, I fear that I won't be able to experience the Harbeth sound, which to me is something very special.

Also @whipsaw and @big_greg -- both the M30 and SHL5+ remain very high on my wish list. I need to decide which one will be a better fit for my listening room. I feel that M30 is probably going to be in the sweet spot that I'm looking for, i.e. retain the same characteristics of P3 but offer a bigger scale, and just the right size for the room.

@big_greg -- how far are your SHL5 speakers from the front wall? As I mentioned, I can only place the speakers up to one and a half feet from the front wall.

To those who commented on the C7s, I agree that the room, associated equipment, and setup make a huge difference. I only heard them once for a short duration, and it is quite possible that it was a one-off. I would love to audition it again, but unfortunately there's no way to do that right now.

Moving on to the HL5s, I think they might be too much given the room size and listening distance. They might work, but given that my ability to position them properly in the home office is rather limited, it's a risky proposition. 40.x is pretty much out of question -- I just don't see how they will fit my room, aesthetics, and most importantly my budget.

At this point, I'm leaning heavily in the direction of 30.1s. Would love to get 30.2 but I don't think I can find a used pair around $3k. From what I have gathered thus far, they retain the sonic qualities of P3esr but serve them in a bigger, fuller platter. Just what the good doctor ordered. These seem to be the goldilocks of the Harbeth lineup, at least for my specific requirements.

For now, this is what I plan to do. Try the P3esr's with my REL T/Zero in conjunction with Blackhawk's dedicated sub out. But eventually, and knowing myself, I would most likely give the 30.x a try.

Having said that, I wonder if there is another speaker that retains the sonic qualities of Harbeth but is tube-friendly. I rather like my Blackhawk and would like to keep it if at all possible. The problem is that I have never met an efficient speaker that I really liked. I have auditioned the Klipsch Heritage line (except LaScalas), Devore O/96, and a few standmount models from Proacs, but none has appealed to me like the Harbeths. I understand that these are amazing speaker, and I don't intend to offend the owners, but just not my cup of tea. If someone can suggest non-horn speakers that are efficient and have a similar sound signature to Harbeth, I'm all ears.

@redwoodaudio -- what a beautiful room you have there! I could sense the calm and serenity just by looking at the pictures. 

@chorus -- I had never heard of Danny or GR Research for that matter. But will definitely check him out. Thanks for the suggestion.

@senza — this is for my second system in the home office. I appreciate the suggestion, but unfortunately Kensington’s are not even in the ballpark given the price.  I’m actually looking at Sterlings but not too many available in the used market. 

@speakermaster -- sorry I just realized that you recommended Spendor S100 as another option. Thanks, I will research this brand.

So I added a REL T/Zero and spread out the speakers by 6 inches on each side. Made a really big difference. The imaging, soundstage depth and width definitely improved noticeably. However, I still feel that the scale, especially when reproducing piano, bass guitar, and horns is not as large - not to be confused with loud -- as I would like. Other than that, it is unbelievable how amazing the P3ESRs sound, and how well they fill the room.

After making these changes, I thought I was done. But no!!! A nice pair of used M30.1 in rosewood showed up, and I just couldn't resist. Hope to get it in 3-5 days. I was planning to keep both, but got a very good offer for my P3ESRs, so they're leaving tomorrow. I seriously hope that I don't come to regret my decision. 

@ryder  Thanks for sharing your opinion. Last year when I was in the process of building my main system, I was almost set on getting the SHL5+ from a local seller. I went to his house to audition, and absolutely loved the way they sounded. I made the mistake of not walking out with the speakers that day. I sent my offer a couple of days later but the seller changed his mind and decided to keep them after all. I found a used pair of SF Olympica II and ended up buying those. These are really good speakers, actually more similar to Harbeth than I imagined, but I still wonder about the SHL5+. Maybe in a year or two, I might sell my Olympicas for the 40.x.

As you noted, the only reason I didn't consider SHL5+ for my home office/study was the lack of proper positioning options. The 30.1s were supposed to be delivered today, but as usual Fedex dropped the ball ... again! I just hope I don't regret selling my P3ESRs. The night before I sent them to the new buyer I was listening to them for the last time. And I kept saying to myself,  'why are you selling them?!' They sounded so good in my room (bolstered by a small REL T/Zero) that I honestly thought about returning the buyer's money. Of course I would never do that to anyone, but I was certainly tempted, lol!

Has anyone else experienced problems with Fedex? In the last 12 months, I've sent and received around 15 shipments using various carriers including UPS, USPS, and Fedex. Without exception, UPS and USPS have delivered on time. And without exception, Fedex has f'ed up the shipment each time -- 5 to be exact!

If you are planning to use Fedex for sending or receiving audio equipment, avoid Fedex like a plague!

Fedex finally decided to deliver the second box today after a 4-day delay. I hooked it up to the Blackhawk and have been listening for about an hour or so. Within the first 5 minutes, any trepidation I had about the switch from P3esr's ceased to exist. It's basically the same sound signature as the smaller P3esr, but everything is served on a bigger, richer, and fuller platter -- wider soundstage, much better depth, and the sound is all around me. I was worried whether the vocals would match the quality of P3esr's ... well, it's better in every way. That feeling of 'the singer in your room' is enhanced and more realistic than before. I'm hearing more details than before.

So is there anything I'm missing about the P3esr? Well, I would say that I do miss the laid back, easy going nature of the little ones. The 30.1's are more immediate, everything seems to pop out more. While I'm enjoying this particular aspect, I do wonder if it might lead to the dreaded listening fatigue in longer sessions. But it's too early to form an opinion. On some songs I do miss the buttery smooth presentation of the P3esr's. Other than this, the 30.1 is a definite step up in every way imaginable. No regrets so far. A big thank you to all who nudged me in this direction.

@ryder -- Now that I have had some more time with 30.1s, I can say without a doubt that they have far exceeded my expectations. They sound glorious in my home office, and a substantial step up from the P3ESRs. Right now, they are a little too close to the front wall due to the way the rest of the furniture is laid out, and this is causing a little bit of boominess on some bass heavy tracks. I pulled the speakers out by about 6 inches and that took care of the problem. I’m going to rearrange the furniture this weekend so I can position the speakers optimally.

Now, here’s something else I did that took me by surprise. So my main system in the media room consists of Sonus Faber Olympica II driven by Luxman 590AXII. On a whim, I hauled the 30.1s to the media room last night and connected them to the Luxman. I couldn’t believe what I was hearing.Yes, it was one of those cliche’d jaw dropping moments. The Harbeths sound so much more musical than the Olympicas that I’m now questioning if I need to just sell the SF and buy a pair of 30.2s instead.

As good as the Luxman/SF pairing is, there are a few issues with the way they present the music. Mind you, the issues are relatively minor and some of them I didn’t even realize existed until I swapped the SFs with 30.1s. The first problem is that on some songs I could feel just a tiny bit of harshness (brightness), and I always felt that the midrange could have been richer. I chalked it up to the neutral nature of Luxman. The second problem was that the vocals were a bit recessed for my liking, plus I could hear some sibilance, although very recording dependent. The way the Olympicas portray the position of the singer is as if he or she is standing alongside, or maybe even a couple of steps behind other musicians. With some songs I felt that the drummer was either in front of the singer or on the same horizontal plane, which always came across as a bit unnatural to me. In a few concerts and live jazz events that I have attended, the drummer is always behind the vocalist by a good 5-10 feet.

Once I paired the 30.1s with Luxman, it was definitely one of those educational moments where you learn more about your preferences -- something you did not even know existed until you experience it. So here’s a quick summary of the Luxman/Harbeth 30.1 combo ...

- Much more musical -- which for me means more warmth without sacrificing detail retrieval.
- No harshness/brightness -- I played some songs that I knew didn’t sound amazing on the SFs, but the 30.1 just took the edge off without losing anything else in the process. Even some old 80’s recordings sound more bearable.
- Improved vocal representation -- I understand that this might be a personal preference, but I like the way the singer is the most prominent element in a song -- a couple of steps ahead of the rest of the musicians. The drummers are in the background, the way I like it. The famed Harbeth vocal prowess is at full display here.
- The disappearing act -- this should come as no surprise though. The 30.1s disappear far better than the Olympicas. The music starts from the center and flows in all directions from thereon.

I will do more comparisons in the next few days to make sure it’s not just a case of the ’new toy’ enthusiasm. But at this point, I’m seriously considering another Harbeth. The question is which one -- 30.2 or SHL5+.

With so many solid offerings from Harbeth, it is so difficult to pick a path. After listening to the 30.1 in the main system, it was hard for me to find faults with its presentation. Before buying this speaker, I had heard comments about the boxy, closed-in nature of the speaker. While it very well might be true, I’ve found that I don’t notice it, or at least it doesn’t bother me at all. That slightly forward sound of instruments and human voices emerging from a quiet background is very appealing to me. It’s by far the best I’ve heard, but then again my repertoire of speakers is fairly limited -- this is ’only’ my ninth pair of speakers that I have owned so far. You can argue that I don’t know what I don’t know, but at least I have a better understanding of where my preferences lie.

I almost had my heart set on 30.2, but my brain is telling to me to add some variety and go with an SHL5+. From the way @ryder describes the SHL5, it sounds more similar to the Olympica 2 that I already own -- airier and slightly leaner sounding with good bass extension. My media room is 20 x 15, so I have the space to work with. I also have a subwoofer and planning to add one more in a few months. Supplanting the bass with 30.x should not be a problem with a little bit of trial and error. If I can find a used pair of SHL5+ at a decent price, maybe I can scratch that itch. It’ll be easy for me to compare it with 30.1 since I already own it. Who knows, I might like it as much as the 30.1. Only one way to find out I guess.

@twoleftears -- actually, I have been thinking about the 40.x, but they rarely if ever show up in the used market, and even then the asking price is too rich for my blood. I bought my Olympica 2 for $5500 and was trying to stay in the same price range. Your comment about the 40.x sharing family resemblance with the 30.x is a very enticing prospect. If it is a bigger, fuller, better M30.1 then it sure has my attention. This can very well be the endgame speaker for me -- by the way, when I say endgame what I really mean is 3-5 years tops :) Buying a 40.x will require more planning, and convincing (you know who). This might be a very strong possibility next year!

Just to clarify, the M30.1s will stay in my home office for a long time. The SH5+ are for the media room, and will be replacing SF Olympica II.

I found a used pair of Super HL5+ in rosewood at a very reasonable price. Should be getting it in a few days. I'll compare it to 30.1 for a month or so, and decide if I want to keep the SHL5+ or replace with a 30.2.

Right now, I'm really loving the 30.1. It's by far the most engaging speaker I've ever owned. Let's see how the SHL5+ competes with it.

@big_greg - I really loved the P3esr's and never thought I'd move on to something else, but here we are. When I was in a smaller room and seated about 5 feet from the speakers, the P3s were very satisfying. However, once I moved to the bigger room and sat about 8 feet from the speakers, they just couldn't keep up. Also, my Blackhawk was never able to drive them all that well.

The M30.1's, in my opinion, build upon the P3esr's with better scale, dynamics, and go deeper. They're also better for low level listening, I can easily hear more details at low volume. They're also an easier load for the Blackhawk. As I mentioned before, the way the sound leaps forward from a dark, quiet background is something to behold. But I think if you're listening near field, i.e. 5 feet or closer, 30.1 might not be that much of an improvement. They definitely need more space around them. Now, when it comes to human voice the 30.1s are superb, much better than my Olympica IIs, but I still think the P3s hold a slight edge.

@twoleftears -- Currently, the M30.1s are placed on metal plate-top stands from Pangea. Although, I've filled them with sand, I'm aware that they're not ideal for Harbeths. With my previous P3 speakers, I could hear a little bit of ringing that was definitely due to the stands. Using blutak solved the problem. I now face the same issue with 30.1 since they're currently on the same stands.

I have ordered wooden open style stands for both the M30.1 (24 inches) and SHL5+ (18 inches) from Z Audio (Terry, the owner also sells audio racks on this site under the user name trn). Unfortunately, it will be at least two weeks before I'm able to pick them up from Austin. I will refrain from providing any type of critical assessment until I've had a chance to put them on proper stands. Will definitely share my opinion once everything is settled.

The SHL5+ were delivered this morning. So far I've only put a few hours on them. They're not new so I'm assuming they have enough hours on them to rule out burn in related issues. Since I don't have proper stands yet, they're sitting on a wooden audio rack which is barely 8-10 inches from the floor. I know it's unfair to form an opinion just yet, but the bass is a little too much for my liking. It's not the booming kind but there's definitely some bloat that is bleeding into the mids and highs. I'm definitely missing the clarity and detail retrieval of my SF Olympicas 2. I'm seriously hoping that getting proper wooden open style stands will make a change for the better.

The sound is similar to 30.1 in many aspects but I feel that the SHL5+ are not as coherent and immediate. The sound is definitely bigger and fills the room better but, man, that bass is getting on my nerves. And I do miss that quality of the 30.1s sound emerging from a dark background. My room is fairly well treated, so I'm pinning all my hopes on getting them on proper stands at the proper recommended height (18"). 

Other than getting better stands, please feel free to share what else I could be doing to get them to work better in my media room (20 x 15 x 12).

By the way, I have them 4 feet from the front wall and 3 feet from side walls. Slight toe in, still experimenting with positioning. 

My apologies for the confusion. I thought I already mentioned that I'm having the stands built by Z Audio (@trn) based out of Autin. He does an amazing job and is very responsive to special requests and designs. My questions were really about what more I can do in the meantime. Reading my own posts, I can see the inherent silliness. It doesn't make sense to spend any considerable amount of time fussing about positioning until I get the stands. But, FWIW, I was able to tame the bass quite a bit by pulling the speakers out further by another 6 inches and lowering the acoustic panels. I will order more panels from GIK to go closer to the floor. Also, I found that toe in has a pretty big impact on the sound, much more so than the Olympica 2 or 30.1s. I found that a toe in position where the left speaker is pointing right between my nose and right ear (and the reverse for the right speaker) is giving the best results -- much less bass and more centered, precise imaging. It does reduce the soundstage width a bit, but the results are worth it.

A huge thank you to everyone who contributed! I will post my impressions once the speakers are properly dialed in on stands, etc.

@twoleftears -- the panels are from GIK Acoustics, and are supposed to be a diffuser/absorber combo ....

https://www.gikacoustics.com/product/impression-4inch-bass-trap-diffusor-absorber/

The ones that I lowered are situated on the side wall just a few inches ahead of the speakers where the first refection points are. Once I get proper stands, I will adjust the height again. 

The sound signature still has the Harbeth family resemblance, but you were right that the 30 and 40 are voiced differently from the rest of the siblings. I know I need to be more patient and give the SHL5+ proper respect in terms of stands and placement before forming an opinion. I went through the same exercise with P3esr's.

@audiopacer -- thanks for sharing the details about placement. I am having the stands being built this week and hope to pick them up over the weekend. I'm really loving the speakers but the bass is still an issue. Of course, the speakers are sitting on an audio rack which is barely 8-10 inches off the floor. Hopefully, the new 18 inch stands will solve the problem. BTW, are you using a sub with the speakers?

@jjss49 The SHL5+ are for my media room which is 20 x 15 x 12. They are 4 feet from the front wall and 3 from each side wall. I think the bass issue is because they’re not sitting on proper stands.I have them on audio racks which are barely 8-9 inches off the floor and too wide. I’m currently driving them with Luxman 590 axii. Hoping to get proper open style wooden stands in a few days which will be 18 inch tall as recommended by Harbeth. Let’s see if that solves the problem. 
The 30.1s are in my home office which is 12 x 13. I am using a rel sub in this room and to me they sound amazing when I try them with the Luxman. They still sound good with the Blackhawk but nowhere near as good as with the Luxman. I might try a Hegel in the near future as it’s high on my list of components to try. 

Update ...

Finally got proper stands (open-style, wood, 18" tall, very similar to TonTrager) for the SHL5+, and what a difference they have made. The problem with excess bass that I described earlier is completely, 100% resolved. I have removed the REL subwoofer for the time being and still the bass from the speakers is astounding. You can actually feel the bass in your chest, something the SF Olympica IIs never achieved.

The other big surprise is the super tweeter. I guess it had to be raised further up the floor to really come into its own. The sound I’m getting now is airy, open, and extended. The soundstage has also improved both in terms of width and depth. One thing I appreciate is that the super tweeter only springs into action when called upon, otherwise it sits in the back and does not affect the music in a negative (bright, harsh) way. Well done, Harbeth!

Next weekend, I will do a side-by-side comparison between the SHL5+ and M30.1 and report back. But right now, I have to admit that the SHL5+ is proving to be a more engaging and versatile speaker compared to the M30.1. It is also, without a doubt, better than SF Olympica II in every regard.

@jjss49
[

i give you two months to get mon 40s in the big room

]

Haha! Just saw this comment. I guess it takes one to know one ;)
I would be lying if I told you the thought hadn’t crossed my mind. But right now, I have exhausted the goodwill of my spouse given what I’ve spent in the last 12 months. Having said that, I have a strong feeling that this will be the next logical step in a couple of years. For now I want to focus on music and get off the speaker upgrade merry go round. Read my lips ;)

@twoleftears The Ls5/5 design looks very interesting. When I was looking earlier, I did consider Graham and Falcon as Harbeth competitors. The problem is it is very difficult to audition these speakers anywhere. I have been burned in the past buying speakers without auditioning, so I decided to not take a chance.

For now, I have decided to sit back and enjoy the two Harbeths I already have in the house. The two speakers I have (M30.1 and SHL5+) are so different in character, yet each offers something unique and alluring that I’m finding it hard to declare an outright winner. They’re both extremely satisfying in their own way. The SHL5+ is more suited to the bigger room and definitely more versatile with different genres of music. The M30.1 is the perfect speaker for home office/study. It’s more buttoned down, coherent, and slightly better when it comes to stuff like tonality and timbre. It also sounds better at lower volumes. IMO, it does jazz, vocals, and small ensembles better, but gives it up to SHL5+ when it comes to rock, blues and indie music. The SHL5+ is definitely the more ’fun’ speaker between the two. It is more open, airy, dynamic, and the bass extension is far better.

The only weak link in my system is the Raven Audio Blackhawk driving the M30.1. The Blackhawk is definitely a great amp but perhaps better suited for more efficient speakers than Harbeth. No one should take it as a knock against Blackhawk, but I will say that their assertion that the 20 watts it offers are the equivalent of 100 SS watts is not true at all, at least in my experience. I will start looking for something else in a few months.

@prof Good observations, especially about the misconception regarding Harbeths being pipes and slippers speakers. I've always found them to be very well balanced.

I've been going back and forth between the SHL5+ and 30.1 and have to say they are both excellent speakers. Yes, the 30.1s are less airy ad open than SHL5+, but IMO they are better when it comes to vocals and midrange. They have a special quality where the human voice and instruments just pop out of a darker background. For me, this quality alone makes up for any other perceived deficiency. If you just want to sit back and relax and listen to jazz or vocals, the 30.1s have that special magic that even the SHL5+s don't. They do the 'small, intimate ensemble in your room' feel better than any other speaker I've ever owned. Of course, the SHL5+ are still more versatile and dynamic.

Horses for courses.

@ryder Yes, indeed! What a nice problem to have. I feel blessed to own and listen to both speakers. I don't think I will be able to pick a favorite anytime soon :)