As Aldavis indicated Albert King was inclined to think with an organ that wasn't between his ears. He never used alot of the gear Hendrix used or had any idea of what Jimi was doing in the studio. King sure as hell never put out anything remotely resembling Electric Ladyland. SRV was a good guitarist, but was obviously for the most part a Hendrix vessel. Most pre Hendrix blues influenced guitarists (Eddie Guitar Slim was a mind blowing exception) were barely on the same planet. Take King out of the picture and there was still a huge reservoir of blues guitar to build on and transform.
Don Van Vliet swiped stuff from alot of different places and may not be the most influential U S musician but he sure changed the rules and opened alot of doors for other musicians.
WAKE UP! Les Paul and Leo Fender. I am surprised nobody here voted on Les Paul and Leo Fender. Hard to imagine rock music without both. Les turned 92 this year and created the most copied sound. No Les; No Jimmy Page or Keith Richards. No Leo; No Hendrix or Clapton.
my original post contemplated both composers and performers in the definition of "musician." frankly, i am not sure how you could separately categorize the two since, as a practical matter, so many musicians wear both hats (britney spears being a notable exception, for example).
tvad: i believe your earlier posts nominated Robert Johnson and Bob Dylan for the honor of most influential. How would you propose to categorize either/both of these as between composer and performer? To attempt to do so would diminish both by suggesting that it is not the combination of their songwriting AND performing (singing and playing and instrument) that makes them worthy of that title.
"Tvad, FWIW I think your definition of 'musician' might be a bit narrow, especially in view of how it's defined in my dictionary, i.e. a composer or performer of music and as an alternative a performer esp of instrumental music."
This goes back to my question Jeffery, how do we define musician for the benefit of this thread? Does it include composers and singers or is the intent instrumentalist? If so it is an impossible question to answer and would have to be divided into categories otherwise it is nothing more than a popularity contest with no objective basis for argument.
If the question was " who was Americas most influential guitarist" then I would say Charlie Christian. Charlie died of TB in his 20's and had he lived I'm sure he would have been even more influential. Blues guitarists harken back to Robert Johnson. For me there are too many great ones over the last 50 years to choose just one like Albert King. Now if you asked Albert he of course would say he was the best. Thats classic Albert King. Albert once famously said of Jimi Hendrix "I can do everything he does but he can't do everything I do".(which might be true) The only time I heard him speak of another guitarist with reverence was on the Albert King/SRV live disc where he admits that SRV was more than his equal. No knocks on Charlie or Albert I just think it's a stretch to call either of them Americas most influential musician as their influences are a little too narrow for me. JMNSHO no offense intended. - Jim
Certainly Pops is a great candidate, since he pretty much invented the modern concept of soloing in, around and on top of the beat. His elastic sense of time made it possible for all subsequent explorations of the beat in Western popular music. But how about Charlie Christian? Can someone think of a person that played the guitar like he did before his arrival, and can anyone identify an important guitar stylist from a later era that did not display some critical element of Christian's style? In fact, you could argue that Christian's innovations inspired subsequent guitarists, and even vocalists to use horn-like phrasing. A case can also be made for Albert King, as every major blues and rock guitarist since him has used his style of attack and note bending. Its true that BB preceded Albert and is every bit as great, but for some reason everyone still tries to sound like Albert in some way or another.
aldavis: thanks for articulating so well what got me started on this topic. the more i learn about louis armstrong, the more it seems that he represented a fundamental turning point in music and set the course for the development of poplular music in the 20th century. it seems that his individual talents came along at exactly the right moment in time -- from a social/cultural perspective -- to achieve maximum influence.
Louis Armstrong hands down. He and his peers created solo improvisation as we know it today and his vocal phrasing forever changed the way singers sing. There isn't ANYONE in popular western music outside of classical music that does not owe much of what they do and how they do it to Louis "pops" Armstrong. Robert Johnson was important to the development of country blues and later ,by extension, R&B and R&R as well as hard bop. However everything in modern R&B,R&R as well as people like Sinatra,Bennett,Vaughn,Holiday,Fitzgerald,Nat Cole,Miles,Coletrane,Simone owe much of what they do to Pops. Duke Ellington was and is an enormous force in western music. He wanted to extend the musical field beyond boundries like "jazz" and "classical". He played dance music but he always wanted to write (and did) truly American popular long format "classical" music. I give Pops the nod because as a country (and as a world) we have gravitated more to rock, pop, jazz,small goup instumental or vocalist than to complex popular large group arrangements. ( yes I know Duke had plenty of small group jazz sessions but in them even he is indebted to Pops) This is all just pure opinion on my part. Feel free to fire away if you disagree. I love this stuff. - Jim
T-Bone Walker was more influential than Muddy Waters. His writing, singing, guitar playing and dancing were a major influence on Muddy, B.B. King and Chuck Berry. Jimi Hendrix wasn't the first to play the guitar behind his head.
That said, my vote goes to Mr. Louis Armstrong. He invented modern popular singing. 2nd place goes to Nat King Cole. Every piano lounge player is channeling Nat. 3rd place - tie between Elvis and Frank S.
Gershwin and Ellington without a doubt. Their music extends way past the time and idiom in which it was written. And I think that many on the thread confuse great performers and performances with great music composition and its influence, especially on other musicians.
I don't want to exclude anyone but without those two creators the canon of American music gets pretty thin, pretty fast.
On a more humorous note, i am reminded of the SNL skit from 1975 when Chevy Chase announces that the first message from intelligent life from outer space has been received in response to our Pioneer One spacecraft that had our location, periodic table, prime numbers, and selections of music by Mozart, Chuck Berry, and poetry by Robert Frost embedded in a gold recorded disc.
"And the message is a simple four word message: 'Send More Chuck Berry'"
Tvad, FWIW I think your definition of 'musician' might be a bit narrow, especially in view of how it's defined in my dictionary, i.e. a composer or performer of music and as an alternative a performer esp of instrumental music.
Re Robert Johnson's importance (to me) I'd never heard of him 'til you mentioned him. I though you were referring to a relatively obscure jazz personality from early 1900, James P Johnson who was an African American composer and piano player who developed the Stride style of jazz piano. He also composed hit tunes, waltzes, ballet, opera and symphonic music. He taught Fats Waller and influenced Gershwin, Count Basie, Duke Ellington, Art Tatum and Thelonious Monk, ad infinitum.
LMAO at my own ignorance and willingness to sign on just to be equitable. I'm not into Blue's. I went straight from hillbilly ('folk music' for the elitists and 'blue grass' for the generic non-hillbilly) to classical and jazz. Who is Robert Johnson? :-)
Yes, but that may also be because of more modern technology. Radio was far more common for Muddy Waters (not to mention John Lee Hooker (but I will)) than for Robert Johnson. If that does make him (Muddy or John Lee) more influential, then perhaps we should keep going forward. Jimi Hendrix....Stevie Ray Vaughn...etc. Recording/playback was not a huge issue when Robert Johnson was in his prime.
At what point do you stop saying who was more popular and who was more influential?? Yes, modern technology will help preserve/promote any artist popularity. Does that mean that the most recent artist is the most influential?
If so, the Brittany Spears and Jessica Simpson may be the most influential American musicians of all time.......:-(
Grant, you responded too quickly, I didn't have time to re-address my previous post. After thinking about it, yes, Muddy was stunning, but Robert Johnson was definitely the father of the blues. I would compare the Muddy Waters- Robert Johnson relationship to that of John Coltrane-Miles Davis. Yes, Coltrane and Waters are fabulous (to put it mildly), but I think I do have to give Robert Johnson and Miles Davis full credit as being the influences that inspired Muddy Waters and John Coltrane. Therefore, I do believe that RJ and MD are the originators (even though Coltrane and Waters are fabulous).
Sorry to contridict myself, but that is how I feel at this moment.
Cheers, John
PS: Makes you wonder if you went back another 50-100 years, who would be the most influential musicians.... the ones that influenced Robert Johnson and Miles Davis. You know there had to be someone........
Bill.....point taken about Elvis. I still think that even though he wasn't a great songwriter or actor, that he was very influential to modern day rock 'n' roll. Of course, as my wife always tells me, I'm probably wrong . :-)
One more name to throw into the mix, yes, I've long been a fan of Robert Johnson as the father of the US blues, however, I do believe tha Muddy Waters definitely has a well deserved place on this list. I feel that as many will say that Muddy inspired them as they will say of RJ. It may be a generational thing, but after listening to Muddy Waters on this rainy afternoon, I do feel that he deserves recognition.
How many musicians can honestly claim to ever approach Zappa's ability? By the same token the ridiculous guitar solos of the 80's "wee wee, weeeeee" went by the wayside and have been replaced with thoughtful and capable efforts by many fine guitarists. Say what you will but the two best guitar solos in the last 25 years that were considered to be commercial successes were Marillion's "Heart of Loriam" on the Misplaced Childhood album, and Pink Floyd's "Comfortably Numb" from The Wall. I would argue both of these pieces were infleunced by Frank Zappa. I can point to specific tracks if need be, suffice to say Zappa was one of the most innovative musicians ever. For your own good, listen to "Yo Mama" on the Sheik Yerbouti album, absolutely unbelievable. How about Black Napkins, Inca Road, or The Torture Never Stops? With all due respect Zappa paved the way and set an incredibly high standard for all to aspire to. Thankfully many have tried...
Gershwin is probably my favorite American songwriter/composer on any given day but the question is influential musician not greatest songwriter. Is Gershwin even the most influential songwriter of the jazz era? I don't think he is. That would probably go to WC Handy or maybe Scott Joplin. Their music is at the root of blues and jazz respectively.
Some of the answers are getting off point IMO and yes, this is purely a subjective exercise, none of it can be proven. A great case can be made for Elvis. How many ten's of thousands of impersonators has his influence begat? All seriousness aside he is a major influence as a musician? Yes, if you count a singer in the equation but then the question should be most influential singer? While a singer is technically a musician it never entered my mind to consider individuals know as singers (i.e. Sinatra, Presley, Fitzgerald, Vaughn, Holiday, Madonna etc) or songwriters (i.e. Gershwin, Porter, Arlen, Berlin, Dylan). I certainly consider many of the above excellent musicians but their influence is greater as Singers and/or Songwriters. I was thinking along the lines of a musical instrument musician. Is that the intent of the question or do singers and songwriters count as well?
Leonard Berstein and Arthur Fiedler are probably the most influential personalities that brought orchestral and classical music to the masses. Does anyone remember Berstein's show in the 50's something like "Young people's guide to the Orchestra" I was greatly influenced by that show as a kid as I'm sure many more were. But for the question posed I don't think these guys count. The question requires narrower boundaries. What do you say Jeffery, its your thread?
I agree that the question of who is the most influential is subjective and, therefore, has no definitive answer. But I think this question is far less subjective than "who is the greatest."
Although I had initially suggested Louis Armstrong, and still feel that he is right up there, subsequent posts have me thinking more about Robert Johnson and Bob Dylan. All three of these musicians seem to have influence that goes way beyond their own musical genres. Can the same be said of, for example, Gershwin, Berlin, or Grandmaster Flash?
Gs5556 I believe has this one right. If the question is "influential", the answer would have to be Handy based on his influence on all of the major American music forms: blues, country, jazz and rock.
It's a stretch to call classical an "American" music form. With the exception of any of the classical artists named here, pretty much all of the rest of the names can at least partially trace their roots back to Handy.
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