Monitor Stands - Made of Stone

I just installed Herbie's decoupling gliders on my Focal Kanta 3s, the regular titanium version, and have wood laminate floors over concrete. Love the improvements especially for the value.

My impressions versus stock metal discs: bass is cleaner and more tight, which allows the midrange to be slightly more pronounced which is exactly what I was looking for. Made the system overall more balanced in the best of ways. The gliders did that perfectly and couldn't be happier. 

Marble is a material to be avoided if function for a purpose is wanted over aesthetics only. 

I have never used Marble in the mass I have used Granite, but when including it in a structure, something of a detractor has been perceived as occurring with the sonic produced. The veil which is commonly referred to and enjoyed when perceived as having been removed, has as a result of my using Marble returned as being drawn and obscuring the view, this is quite noticeable when Marble is added to a Structure.

What will happen with a 250lb Mass of Stone Stand and Speaker used in conjunction with a purpose produced Suspension Plinth is an unknown to me.

My experience is that I have evolved to using a structure that has an upper tier with Granite utilised as a Plinth, which is to receive suspension footers to seat a Floor Standing Speaker on. 

The Suspension Methodology is an extremely good Corner Stone for a starting place, selecting the additions to the Speaker Supporting Structure such a upper plinth tier, stand material and design for the stand, is something that can maybe be subjected to further investigations. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZxi1oZfvDA&pp=ygUNbWF4IHRvd25zaGVuZA%3D%3D

I’m not too proud to change my mind when new information/experience or well reasoned advice comes my way. 

I’m by no means a bass head but there are certain tracks I play to test just how  subterranean my Dutch & Dutch speakers can go. With some tracks they will shake the foundation, no exaggeration. This evening I put a wine glass with a nice merlot on top of my speakers and played (Heartbeat - Wychazel). The juice was sloshing around in the glass. I didn’t know if I should laugh or cry. 

This has me now thinking I would be best served by “decoupling” and I’ve reconsidered this use of Townshend Podiums between the suspended wood floor and my custom speaker stands.

I still plan on using some kind of stone with the stands (granite or marble) to act as a front baffle in line with the baffle of the D&D’s. The superstructure will be steel. I might use Live Vibe cones/disks between the top plate of the speaker stand and the bottom of the speakers. In effect using both coupling and decoupling technologies. 

I want to express my thanks to all who’ve contributed to this thread and adding  rasa to my curiosity. 
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl1yxW2Skeg&pp=ygUNbWF4IHRvd25zaGVuZA%3D%3D

Please someone explain the physics of why any isolation tech can help a speaker have perfect rigidity and anchor?  Isolation, Springs ?  Any of this makes no sense to me. I actually plan to anchor my Duntechs with casons to bedrock in a Mt house I'm building,.. Think about it. Every wave force exerted by a diaphragm performs best when that diaphragm has a perfectly rigid substrate. Physics. 

Consider physics and ignore the rest. In my opinion a speaker would perform best id anchored to bedrock with concrete and rebar. Anything less is just not physics so your idea to use stone is brilliant! Go for it a smile as you man who understands physics! You will be rewarded in spades with fantastic sound. The speaker base interface comes to mind though... peace 

I watched both videos which were very good. But he only addressed vibration and from what I’ve read here if the cabinet and drivers are both moving back and forth there will be smearing. Has anyone experienced this? 

@townshend-audio

In my system, your isolation technology (speakers bars and seismic platforms for components) are audibly superior to what they replaced, Isoacsoutics Gaia and and Orea. It appears Isoacoustics Gaia does transfer too much energy to the floor for example, as overall midbass through midrange clarity was greatly improved over the Gaias. Also the Isolation Platform was audibly superior to that of the Isoacoustic Delos platform under my Clearuadio Ovation table. Townshend makes effective products. The representative I dealt with (John) was efficient, friendly enough and the transaction was prompt and seamless.

@townshend-audio 

I agree with @ronboco - nice post.  I appreciate how you acknowledged how the concept of a "spring" can cover a wide range of elastic devices.

The spring may be anything “springy”, from elastic, rubber, coiled steel, straight steel, air-bladders to flexible wooden strips. As long as it has sufficient spring or compliance, when optimised with an appropriate mass, a mechanical low pass filter is realised.

For you ronboco

https://youtu.be/dW9-r83IvhI

https://youtu.be/OZxi1oZfvDA

@townshend-audio 

Excellent post! That must sum up exactly what you are trying to accomplish with your successful product. But I am confused why you wouldn’t address my question. You sent me a PM saying you don’t get involved in forum conversations. You have massive exposure and I’m sure many sales as a result of this forum. I would think you would be eager to answer any questions we might have to garner more sales. 
 

regards 

Densified Wood is a name given that covers the methodologies used to produce the product.

Brand Names commonly selected are Panzerholz and Permali.

Panzerholz as a product is mostly used within Audio as the B25 material with the Wood Grain orientated as a Cross Grain on the Laminations.

Permali is usually EV6 again it is to have the Cross Grain Orientation on the laminations.

Each can be found as supplied boards with a thicknesses that ranges from 5mm - 100mm.

The Link will show a description offered by a individual who's career, will have introduced them to many options for a material to be selected. Panzerholz is quite important to the production of this Companies Designs.

  https://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/11/interview-with-rainer-weber-of-kaiser.html

Based on collaboration between an architect and stone mason your proposed stone stands should be pretty cool when completed.

Regarding your proposed Live Vibe Audio (former Star Sound) supports over your "2nd level wood floor," you do have several options. Based on your post, it sounds as if you plan to use the Live Vibe products between your monitors and the stone stands. If so, what are you planning on using between the stone stands and your suspended wood floor - anything? Another option would be to more firmly attach the monitors to the stands (i.e., Blu Tack or Herbie’s thin fat dots) and then either spike (i.e., Live Vibe) or decouple (i.e., Townshend or something else) the entire speaker/stand system from the floor. You could also use a decoupling type footer between the monitors and the stands, with the stands supported directly on the floor.

Many here have had good results using "squishy" footers (i.e., elastomers, springs, or another elastic material, but not spikes), and particularly on suspended wood floors. I had my main system on a suspended wood floor in two houses and currently have the system in a lower, walk-out level on a concrete floor. I have always mechanically attached my speakers to Sound Anchor stands (both floor-standing speakers and my current monitor speakers), so the speakers have been stabilized by heavy sand-filled steel stands with threaded inserts for spikes. I have tried a variety of support options on both the wood and concrete floors, including Star Sound brass spikes, Sound Anchor’s spikes, edenSound Bear Paw brass spikes, Herbie’s dBNeutralizer products for speakers, damped springs (similar to Townshend), and the platinum-cured silicone hemisphere footers that I am currently using.

I will not predict what might work best for your particular situation but, in my systems, I believe the "decoupling" products (elastomers or springs) have provided both the easiest set up and the best sound. If you wanted to try an inexpensive option, look at these platinum-cured silicone hemispherical footers. Since they are sized by the weight to be supported, the big 2.5-inch version (supporting up to 100-pounds per pod) could possibly be used under the stand/speaker combo or you could try one of the smaller versions between your speakers and the stands. I use two different sizes (2 and 2.5-inch) under my 180 pound speaker/stand combo to provide a small amount of back-tilt as recommended by the manufacturer. One thing I noticed is that the 360-degree motion of the pods is similar to the behavior of the speakers when I had them supported by damped springs, and the frequency also seems similar based on attenuation behavior when excited.

@pindac 

Where might one find Phenolic Impregnated Densified Wood products? A quick google search turned upon a lot of research but no sources for the product.

@townshend-audio 

Hello. It seems to me that a speaker on your podiums will rock back and forth due to the pistonic action of the drivers. That seems like an undesirable thing to have happen and will negatively affect the sound. What are your thoughts ? Thank you 

You mean spikes.  Indeed.  You're talking my language.

I mean not bare speaker surfaces.  Spikes are good but resilient pucks like IsoAcoustics may control back and forth vibrational modes better.  Both are much better than a flat speaker face or track.

Acora makes speaker enclosures and stands from granite ... It's a Canadian firm

Might be able to draw some inspiration ...

https://www.acoraacoustics.com/products/SRS/srs.html

Love to see a rendition!!  good luck

I have a history of using Stone inclusive of Granite for a variety of supporting roles in my own HiFi System.

I have used and still use Granite as outlined in the following:  Plinths @ approx' 90Kg each under Cabinet Speakers, a Plinth for a Garrard 401 @ approx' 90Kg, a Plinth Under Valve Mono's @ approx' 300Kg and Bespoke Built Rack Shelves @ approx' 25Kg. 

I have evolved with how I am utilising the Granite, it has not been used as a sole material for many years. It is used a Tier in a support Structure, and the position it is placed usually means it is a Upper Tier material which needs careful consideration for a footer being selected to be used.

I have never stopped working with materials that can be used in a structure in conjunction with the Granite.

Most recent, the material of Interest and being adopted is Phenolic Impregnated Densified Wood. This material comes in at 1400Kg per Cubic Metre, and measures for Damping and Dissipation in a much more desirable manner than Stone or Metals.

This material has made a impression on myself like few other materials have when used as a part within a Support Structure. The improvements on offer are seemingly tangible. 

I encourage the OP to look into this material to produce their design for a Speaker Support, it is finding a place in the construction of Hi End Speaker Cabinets and is being picked up on by other areas of the Audio Industry.    

@69zoso69 I keep seeing the D&D speakers in Roon ads, how do you like them in general? 

@erik_squires      "In general I believe we should: MInimize the contact surface"

You mean spikes.  Indeed.  You're talking my language.

Also, remember that if you put your speakers on a concrete floor, that is like a very big stone.

I have a lot of stone and marble in my listening room.  All my source and pre-amp equipment stands on it.  Power amps and speakers are on low spiked stands on concrete floor.  Everything is stone dead when tapped.

Sounds like a case of more money than sense!

Hello everyone

Thank you all for your very kind words

I do try to never comment but 69zoso69 wanted to pay with Apple Pay which sadly we couldn’t set up in time so 69zoso69 purchased elsewhere. I called 69zoso69 Sunday to see if I could assist any further but op had looked at alternative solutions which is absolutely fine.

I use 40mm thick black granite on my Magico A5 (with its spikes, sitting on the granite) and gives a much more defined bass and revealed many more micro dynamics especially in the sub 80hz region. Had used other decoupling device and different thickness stones but I found 40mm black granite (highest density) does the best isolation of resonant from my hardwood flooring.

@69zoso69

But after putting in many hours reading papers on thermodynamics, cymatics, and seismology, talking to representatives at both companies, reading/listening to reviews, and employing a little common sense I’ve landed in LVA’s camp

You have made a wise decision. This is a well established product with many very satisfied customers .(Including me). I’ve received superb results with their platforms. The engineering and approach is affirmed by the sound quality improvement.

I am sure that Townsend as an alternative approach  has its advocates and happy customers as well.

Charles

@whipsaw 

I appreciate your comments. I’m by no means an expert in this field and am relying on the collective wisdom and experience of our tribe. “Any fool can learn from his own mistakes…”.

I’ve not run across any of Robert’s comments disparaging other companies. I’ve spent about two and a half maybe three hours chatting with him and he was a real gentlemen. No sucker punches or backhanded comments regarding his competitors. 
 

I was inches away from buying the Townshends but several delays allowed me to explore other options. I was on board with many others who believe the T podiums are better suited to suspended floors (like mine) and then the idea of proving a big heavy piece of stone moved me towards the advantages of spikes. 

@69zoso69 I was in the same boat, I did not see one ok looking speakers stand on the market, including Sonus Faber. They are incredibly ugly. So I designed one and had it made. Mine is rubber feet, wooden legs, metal base connected by bluetac. Zero resonance, or issues. 

In general I believe we should:

• MInimize the contact surface
• Maximize stability by using wider, deeper footings

You want the speaker to be locked into the 3D space it exists in with no motion, you want to avoid radiating sound through the floor by leaving a large surface of speaker in direct contact with it, or floating on a carpet.

I'm surprised by the news that Townshend is hard to buy from. My dealings with John at the company have been the opposite---very efficient processing of my orders, and prompt shipping, not a single problem.

From what I understand there is no such thing as "decoupling". Decoupling suggests we are breaking the rules of gravity, which I find a little disingenuous. "Decoupling" was probably derived by someone in the marketing department, certainly not a scientist.

@69zoso69

With all due respect, it sounds as though your understanding is identical to that of Robert, of LVA. Ironically, I consider some of his claims to be disingenuous, as they are based on a straw man argument, namely that those who use the words "decouple", or "isolation", believe that it can be achieved absolutely. I doubt that there is anyone who uses those words within the context of audio components who is suggesting that. In other words, we can all agree that there is no such thing as perfect isolation, nor 100% decoupling.

But approaches such as those used by Townsend and Isoacoustics, etc., are clearly efficacious, even if they don’t completely decouple, or isolate components. There are reasons why some high-class speaker manufacturers (e.g. Marten, Wolf von Langa) include. or recommend them for use with their products.

I can’t personally speak to the relative merits of LVA products, as I haven’t heard them. They may well be excellent, and in (at least) some systems superior to the above mentioned products. But let’s be clear about something: Robert has (marketing) incentive to denigrate competing designs, and the way that he has gone about doing that on various forums reflects very poorly on him. It is one thing to argue that one’s products are superior to those of one’s competitors, and to explain why that is the case. But it is very different to argue disingenuously, as he has, and to play semantic games in an effort to denigrate competitors.

Your arguments relating to speed are interesting, but you fail to mention that coupling works both ways, and so vibrations can and do travel back up from the floor to the speaker. Even if you are correct about the LVA spikes being "faster" than the Townshend spring products, the latter come very close to to decoupling, or isolating the speakers from the floor, meaning that far less vibration will travel back up from the floor.

You have apparently done more research on the topic than I, but I know enough to be confident in my criticisms of Robert. I exposed some of his dubious tactics on this thread, if anyone is interested:

coupling/decoupling

Finally, it is not my intention to derail this thread, and I am glad that you are so happy with the solution that you have chosen.

I had originally thought 1/2" or 1" steel plate would be a good material but apparently any surface that you might rightly call "plate", even a very heavy one, is prone to ringing.

A plate, on a towel, on your speaker won’t ring, but it MIGHT show you very quickly if you could use that approach or not.

The effect, when it’s needed, is not subtle.

If you try it and it helps, you won't want to go back. :)  On the  other hand, if it does nothing... take it off. :) This isn't like buying exotic fuses. 😂

@whipsaw

If you understood what I said to be an "overstatement" please know I was only sharing what others have reported after comparing the two. Unfortunately I’ve not had the opportunity, so I can’t definitely say (yet). Once the LVA gear arrives I’ll get to A/B them with a friend who own’s a pair of Townshend’s.

It’s true these two brands are marketing their products using different terminology. From what I understand there is no such thing as "decoupling". Decoupling suggests we are breaking the rules of gravity, which I find a little disingenuous. "Decoupling" was probably derived by someone in the marketing department, certainly not a scientist. Due to gravity everything is coupled to the earth. The difference between the two is a matter of speed. Townshend use the "slow" option and LVA uses the "fast" option. That is to say Townshend podiums hold on to energy longer than LVA’s cones. Springs are meant to absorb energy, dissipating it as heat, but some will always be transferred to ground. LVA’s philosophy employs brass cones which transfer energy to ground much much faster. And in audio speed is everything. Speed is resolution, imaging, realism. Ground has much greater surface area for absorption and dissipation than springs. Not to mention longevity, I’d put up a concrete floor, even a wood floor, against springs any day.

I believe Townshend’s offer a product that is efficacious and has some great engineering behind it. But after putting in many hours reading papers on thermodynamics, cymatics, and seismology, talking to representatives at both companies, reading/listening to reviews, and employing a little common sense I’ve landed in LVA’s camp.

Now I just need to find the right kind of stone for the pedestals ; ) 

Maybe as a cheap experiment, try these for $54 that might give you a good sense of what springs bring to the table since Townshend is unresponsive, and very expensive.  
https://www.ebay.com/itm/134128587790

I’ve settled on Live Vibe Audio. Yes more expensive but superior to Townsend based on every review I’ve come across.

I’m glad that you are happy with them, but this strikes me as quite an overstatement. In any case, it’s important to note that the two companies are using very different technologies, as LVA is intentionally coupling components to the ground, while TA is decoupling. So the results are certain to be different, and will be subject to the preferences of individual listeners.

@erik_squires  

Agreed, (3) points are better than (4). Not to trumpet the brand but Live Vibe espouses (3) points of contact. (3) points will always equalize whereas (4) points are prone to wobble. 

I've not tried placing weights on the top of the monitors but I love the suggestion. Easy enough to try it out. Thanks. 

I was worried about rear mounted woofers until I heard a couple models. Both the Kii Threes and the Dutch & Dutch 8c's have very clean bass and great imaging (a tell tale test for any box suffering from vibration issues). 

To be clear, I'm not experiencing any imaging or excessive vibration issues. This project is more aesthetic than anything else. I just don't want to introduce something that would be a step backwards. I would assume most objects with a decent amount of weight/mass well anchored to the floor would suffice. 

I had originally thought 1/2" or 1" steel plate would be a good material but apparently any surface that you might rightly call "plate", even a very heavy one, is prone to ringing. Take note those of you with large DACs or Amplifiers. Easy enough to test, just rap the top/side of your box with your knuckles. Thus something monolithic like a good size chunk of stone would appear to be a better option. Not perfect but better than most speaker stands I've come across. 

Thanks for chiming in folks, I really appreciate the input. Always learning something new from you all.  

@townshend-audio  should probably know that there are problems happening for good, patient people (as I know the OP is). I hope the Live Vibe works out well for you!

1. Triangles are more stable than squares and have 25% less contact area.

2. The biggest issue with monitors IMHO is the back and forth movement of the woofer causing equal/opposite rocking of the speaker cabinet, which seriously degrades bass to mid-bass performance so be careful how much you angle them back, and even in some cases consider a weight on top of the speaker. Several have reported this to be extremely "clarifying."

The back and forth issue has a lot to do with how high up the woofers are and where the center of mass is over the stand footers.  Worth considering as you set up.

Sorry to hear about your poor experience with Townshend — that’s awful, but glad you’ve found a good alternative (and they’re certainly much better looking IMHO).  I’d love to see a pic of your stands when they’re done, and I’m sure they’ll be fantastic and much better looking than black metal stands.  Great speakers too BTW. 

@soix I have considered Townsend. I spent several days trying to make a purchase with them and finally gave up. Not the best customer service experience. 

I’ve settled on Live Vibe Audio. Yes more expensive but superior to Townsend based on every review I’ve come across. 

The team at Live Vibe are incredibly talented and have decades of experience. I also love their return/upgrade policy. 

Based on this research paper (see link below) it doesn’t appear that stone would resonate in any significant manner detrimental to our 20hz - 20khz hearing range. I’m not saying stone is perfect, and different types behave differently, but when stone resonates it’s mostly at the high end and above or range of what’s audible. 

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/sv/2019/6326510/#

I imagine Acora (speakers) made of granite and considered some of the finest speakers in the world right now, wouldn’t have chosen this material if it wasn’t great for controlling vibration and resonance. 

excerpt from the research paper.

A harmonic impact force with the amplitude of 1000 N and the excitation frequency of 10 kHz and 20 kHz are exerted on the granite and sandstone with the dimension of 200 mm × 200 mm × 200 mm, respectively. The response results of rocks are shown in Figure 5. When the excitation frequency is within the range of 0∼10 kHz, the resonance frequency of granite is 6900 Hz, and that of sandstone is 8700 Hz. However, when the excitation frequency is within the range of 0∼20 kHz, the resonance frequencies of granite and sandstone are 10.6 kHz and 16.2 kHz, respectively. It can be seen that the resonance frequencies of the rock are different under different ranges of excitation frequency. As the excitation frequency increases, the resonance frequency of the rock also increases. 

You might also consider Townshend Seismic isolation devices for your speakers that use springs and get universally glowing reviews.  Just another option to ponder FWIW.

https://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/seismic-isolation-pods/

Typically stone is not used because of it resonance.. I have a one inch thick plate of granite under my amp. I used springs above and vibrapods below to isolate the granite and the steal stand with spikes it sits on , so mostly it is supplying weight. Without the isolation it was not good. 
 

I’m not an expert, but I am fairly sure that what I have done mitigates the problem, but that one need be careful in using it.