whew....what a scare. I thought he was back.
Millercarbon's Mega Vibration Control Journey
Vibration control is such a huge, and hugely important, topic it deserves a thread of its own. There was a time I thought it nuts to say such a thing. In fact I wrote a letter to the editor excoriating them for wasting my time on the goofy idea that clamping components between shelves could have any effect on sound at all, let alone be worth spending good money on a rack designed to do just that. This was the Michael Green rack, and thanks to my closed mind and dismissive attitude I never did bother to try and find out for myself if there was anything to it.
Important Lesson Number One: Don't be so quick to dismiss things just because you can't understand how they could work.
Couple years later unpacking a McCormack DNA1 amp the Owner's Manual says the included spike can be used to improve sound quality. Well now. As crazy as it still sounded this time its Steve McCormack, and he's already given me the spike, so what do I have to lose? Much to my surprise it did indeed improve the sound. Not a lot. But definitely more detail, clarity.
This is very early 1990's. There is no internet. I know precisely zero audiophiles. Until stumbling upon this one guy at work who says oh yeah and put your CDP on a phone book, and another one on top. Which sounded even crazier but the guy was serious and this being the 90's we all had phone books laying around so I gave it a shot. This time it was only the most barely perceptible improvement, but it was there. If you really listened for it. So not much. Then again, free. Wrapped some fabric around it, ran the CDP like this for quite some time.
Around this time I'm shopping for components for my new listening room when this guy is more excited about something called Black Diamond Racing Cones than the amp or whatever he was trying to sell me. So I get 3 of these things and they're so much better than the phone book its hard to believe! Well, okay, it was a phone book. Got to compare against something, right?
These Cones are so good I take them to this Seattle audiophile club and show them around all excited and.... nobody cares. Except this one guy who goes on and on about how he has tried phone books, tennis balls, racquet balls, styrofoam, cones, spikes, on and on everything under the sun, he's tried it all there's just no way he's gonna be impressed- he makes this very clear to me- but okay you're the new guy let me borrow em why not. But they're not gonna work. No way.
Next day this guy calls me up gushing going on and on how great these are what are they again where did you find em how many can I get? I actually wind up becoming the Washington State distributor for Black Diamond Racing selling Cones, Shelf, all of it. This guy winds up like me, pretty much everything on BDR. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
A lot of what I knew about vibration control back then was based on my own experience with BDR, and learning from owner DJ Casser. This resulted in what became my guiding principles of vibration control: Mass, Stiffness, and Damping.
Important Lesson Number One: Don't be so quick to dismiss things just because you can't understand how they could work.
Couple years later unpacking a McCormack DNA1 amp the Owner's Manual says the included spike can be used to improve sound quality. Well now. As crazy as it still sounded this time its Steve McCormack, and he's already given me the spike, so what do I have to lose? Much to my surprise it did indeed improve the sound. Not a lot. But definitely more detail, clarity.
This is very early 1990's. There is no internet. I know precisely zero audiophiles. Until stumbling upon this one guy at work who says oh yeah and put your CDP on a phone book, and another one on top. Which sounded even crazier but the guy was serious and this being the 90's we all had phone books laying around so I gave it a shot. This time it was only the most barely perceptible improvement, but it was there. If you really listened for it. So not much. Then again, free. Wrapped some fabric around it, ran the CDP like this for quite some time.
Around this time I'm shopping for components for my new listening room when this guy is more excited about something called Black Diamond Racing Cones than the amp or whatever he was trying to sell me. So I get 3 of these things and they're so much better than the phone book its hard to believe! Well, okay, it was a phone book. Got to compare against something, right?
These Cones are so good I take them to this Seattle audiophile club and show them around all excited and.... nobody cares. Except this one guy who goes on and on about how he has tried phone books, tennis balls, racquet balls, styrofoam, cones, spikes, on and on everything under the sun, he's tried it all there's just no way he's gonna be impressed- he makes this very clear to me- but okay you're the new guy let me borrow em why not. But they're not gonna work. No way.
Next day this guy calls me up gushing going on and on how great these are what are they again where did you find em how many can I get? I actually wind up becoming the Washington State distributor for Black Diamond Racing selling Cones, Shelf, all of it. This guy winds up like me, pretty much everything on BDR. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
A lot of what I knew about vibration control back then was based on my own experience with BDR, and learning from owner DJ Casser. This resulted in what became my guiding principles of vibration control: Mass, Stiffness, and Damping.
78 responses Add your response
@agisthos Like you, I looked around and tried out some Isoacoustic Oreas and have been happy ever after. Not as expensive as your Stillpoints but they do it for me. All the best, |
@nonoise I'm glad you say this because I tried a bunch of the Herbies footers about 10 years ago and it was the exact same experience. They made a difference to the sound that was very noticeable, the problem was it made things sound worse. |
With the speakers using a fine tuned damping and compressive load, with one set of 4 springs boxes under the speaker and another set on top of the speaker and directly under the load and then fine tuning the load is the key to an increase S.Q. because the difference on the applied compressive force between the 2 sets of springs decrease also the power of the negative internal resonance of the speaker... Then the load is not only there to damp the speaker but also to work as a compressive force differently on 2 points: under of the speaker and on top of it, creating then an elasticity in the speaker reaction to his vibration and internal resonance also.... I am not a scientist but it is only my explanation... |
The concepts of mass loading and internal damping of stereo gear is often overlooked and underappreciated. First, massive shelving units should be utilized. I use the Mapleshade Samson Racks. They are TANKS! These racks are spiked through a thick carpet into the cement floor FTR, I use 100% ModWright products. All my components and speakers have heavy weights placed on top of them (usually Lead and Brass). The total weight ranges from 25-50 lbs. I use brass cones underneath to prevent lateral shifting. These cones interface with 2-4” Maple Plinths which are further isolated from the actual Maple Shelves by using dampening devices. Also utilize some Sorbothane footers to further dampen self generated component vibrations. In addition, my CD Player and Pre Amp have inverted cones on the top of the chassis. I tighten my adjustable shelving which sandwich and squeeze the components between shelves. The component does not move in any direction. Period! My Amp uses a floor plinth arrangement with heavy weights on top. The next step is to deaden the chassis and internal components to the maximum extent possible. I use Noico 80 mil Car Sound Deadening Material on the unit’s internal sides, bottom and top, in multiple sheets where it is feasible. I also dampened any component or part which would accept a treatment. Transformers and CD Drives for instance. Added silicon rings and brass hexnut “crowns” to my small signal tubes. So far I’ve treated my Amp and CD player. Will do the Pre Amp in the near future. Finally, I placed a dab of RTV on the top of every capacitor I could reach. Caps are probably the most sensitive component to vibration. A lot of people seem to think mass loading and component damping can take the life out of the music. My experience has shown that this is not the case. The above tweaks have GREATLY elevated the sound quality, imaging and soundstage in my system. The bass is super tight, articulated and thunderous. I actually had to reduce the volume of my subwoofers. All this was especially evident after I treated the CD Player. This is the logical place to start treatments. Admittedly, quite a bit of man hours are required to undertake this project. But the rewards are WELL worth it! |
Vibrations and resonance controls are the beginning and the more easy task between the 2 other embeddings (electrical and acoustical)....Try to think about it.....This thread is an occasion to do so....Dont upgrade before thinking.... :) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well said, I’ve select my stuff for what it can do. Doesn’t mean I’ve pulled ever last drop out of it. I’m just now 9/10 of the way done BEFORE set up, in 2 30 year old rooms. BOTH were built with sound in mind.. I just had to retire to get it the way I like it. My two hand built the house, I’m gonna finish the house... Vibration was addressed when we poured the foundation, I used friction piers on stem walls. Double up on the girders and floor pinning.. Electrical, the friction piers are the house BOND, the earth ground is hooked to every pier... Every pier is 10 feet in the ground.. Every 4 feet.. 16 piers outboard, 6 piers inboard. Acoustics were addressed when built.. Front wall is a 3 foot deep 15 foot long, 8 ft tall BASS trap and equipment racks. That area is a solid concrete foundation 2 feet deep, 3 foot wide and 15 foot long.. You just open the THREE trap to access equipment, and or dampen the room real quick.. depends on the music..It was and is used for a closet, BUT that wasn’t the original intent, Don’t tell the wife.. NOW to clean the crap out of here and get it done.. No one is gonna do it for me... Everything is here... I been collecting stuff for this swan song for years...IT’S TIME.. Stupid heart attacks, slowed me down, I feel GOOD...Pain in the stomach/back to tell the truth... WEIRD... I was use to givin’ them, not having them... :-) SAY MC how the heck are you doing? You all fixed up now or what? Still reelin' about the Turnover I bet.. I am.. Weird year!! Vibrate on good man, vibrate on.. Time to feed the chickens.. Come on dog.. Regards |
At least half the upgrades moves and more are the result of ignorance and comes from a great frustration more than from the necessity to do so.... It is my experience.... I cannot prove it but i listen to my 500 used vintage system smiling at any possible upgrade like it would be unnecassary...( diminishing return law) Embed rightfully anything before upgrading something.... The greatest increase in S.Q. comes from the 3 embeddings implementation not from an upgrade of an electronic component most of the times.... There is exception for sure.... I will never pretend than a 20,000 speakers is on the same footing than a bad pair of cheap speakers for example.... A low cost amplifier cannot trash a Berning amplifier for example, even my extraordinary Sandui AU 7700 will be beaten.... But rightfully embedded i will live with it without even looking for any replacement.... If the piano sound does not come from the speakers no more and inhabit the room in 3-d, you are there with the Sansui or with the more refined Berning..... The difference really comes from a rightful embedding more than from the amplifier upgrading..... The 2 amplifiers are myth and legend on their own anyway and the 2 are very good.... Vibrations and resonance controls are the beginning and the more easy task between the 2 other embeddings (electrical and acoustical)....Try to think about it.....This thread is an occasion to do so....Dont upgrade before thinking.... :) |
bigkidz2,358 posts11-13-2020 8:49amProbably better to just buy better components then to go through all of this stuff to begin with IMO anyway. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok I’ll bite.. which one? We’re all on a journey, which one first, or just dump the whole bunch? What do you recommend? What does better mean? Guys like me, I’m not the rich kid on the block, or the "new one either". Some stuff I CAN’T or would NEVER pay the price, others would.. I dropped off a guy last night.. Give me the system he had, I’ll take it. BUT If I had to pay for it, I’m sorry to say, under 1/10th of his budget and that’s a push, for me.. It’s more like 1/20th. 25,000.00 is a lot for me.. I have lots of vintage gear, But what I listen too, That’s a whole different thing. I’m handy though, REAL handy, I’ll do my own, AND still get happy.. Regards |
The feedback problem I had with springs under the turntable is a damping problem. Its a problem because there is a certain range of frequency and amplitude level where we want the spring to be a spring. To let the shelf or component move freely. Damping factor by definition interferes with this. But we do want damping, just a certain very well defined amount. This is where the story catches up to where we are in the real time here and now. Because the last week or so I’ve been looking into this and now happy to say have found a really good solution: Townshend Pods. So good in fact I’m done writing for the night, got some listening to do which is a whole lot more fun. |
I have always been supportive of room treatments. Even in my college dorm room I used carpet samples tacked to the walls and heavy cloth tacked into the corners of ceiling/wall. I have kept at that ever since, albeit with much nicer applications than carpet samples tacked to the wall. I got into AC power cleansing a couple of years ago. I just upgraded to a Niagara 3000. Earlier this year I learned more about vibration control and have been applying that to my system using Symposium Acoustics products. Next upgrade is a Symposium Acoustics equipment rack, shipping out to me after this weekend. I have learned a lot about vibration control but realize there is plenty more to learn. This thread is a very good one for me. I am reading it daily. I hope there are some new additions in the next few days. I'd like to hear more from others as well as MC. I'm always looking to learn. And the fun is to apply it and hear the positive results. Thanks guys. @bigkidz yes indeed, buying better components delivers better audio quite well. But then, if you "go through all of this stuff" you realize much superior results than just plopping down the components, connecting them, and turning on the system. Try these things discussed in this thread and you will be amazed at the benefits. You will hear your music like never before. Truly stunning. |
MC, I got a question, are the granite slabs, your using, MMG (man made granite), or quarried? Quarried, granite, has a few different signatures.. ay? Quartz vibrates, right? I know when I use to show up and they were doing core samples, seeing how to reinforce the substrata. Pretty impressive what Old mother nature can put together. Some of that stuff can ring like a flippin bell... Looks nice, though.. Caliche, natures concrete... Las Vegas...Bisite, and Granite in NY, everything ELSE in between.. Just wondering... Regards |
Getting back on track. The springs I've been using lately are just that, springs. Some from eBay, different sizes, are just plain springs. Nobsound are just springs too, only with caps or footers drilled out to hold them in place. Point being they are all bounce, with no damping. Like Max said his engineering indicates an ideal .16 damping. Didn't seem to matter with speakers. Plain springs under the Moabs worked fine. Under the subs, ditto. Even under the turntable, seemed to work fine- at least at first. Got some more, put them under the power conditioner. Speaker cables, power cords and interconnects are on rubber bands. Virtually the whole system is now suspended, one way or another. Not exactly free to move- a lot of the cables are pretty stiff. They will restrict free movement and at the same time feed vibration into the component. Hard to avoid. But for the most part it is all suspended or if you prefer isolated. One day I notice this drone or rumble. It happened on a lead-in where there's no signal so I thought it was really bad rumble and my bearing or motor or something was shot. But no. Darn noise would come and go. One time I got up to go check and while walking to the turntable it stopped. Went away. I froze. No rumble. Okay. Went to sit back down, came right back! Took a very long time to realize this was undamped resonance feeding back into the turntable. At just the right frequency the system would be excited and with no damping it would feed back and amplify until it was just super alarming loud. Even a small change anywhere in the system would stop it, like me moving my weight around the room. Tried different things, the best so far is to add a 5th leg under the table this one with a very small bit of sorbothane that eliminates the feedback. |
If you have wood harder than that.... man that's some hard wood! One of the hardest in the world and weathers like Teak.. It is used for wooden decks on wood top low beds and really good steak bed gates. Wooden legs (when painted) CNC and duplicating sculpture. Yea it will tear up a blade pretty quick, BUT I've used it for years, as trim on baltic Birch. The longer it ages, the more of a chocolate color it turns.. Can't dent it.. Tear a car to pieces with a 1" 24" stick.. Beat it to pieces, LOL Gotta use water.. It stinks to high heaven too...cut dry.. really stinks... So the springs are only 1/4" around, that is tiny.. I can bore that with a reamer or a bit...and finish the pocket with flat cutter, shim with 1/4 washers.. That's easy, I was thinking 2-3 inch bore. Thanks.. Regards |
What? Apatong looks exactly like the tight grain reddish brown exotic hardwood in my shop, extremely dense but it is only about as hard as aluminum and can still be cut with router or table saw, you just have to be careful to feed slower. Had mine forever because I hate working with it- one mistake and it takes forever to sand out, if you even can! If you have wood harder than that.... man that's some hard wood! Nobsound springs are 1/4" dia and about 1" high. If the speakers are softer on the bottom you could drill 1/4" holes about 1/4" deep and slide the springs in there, however many you need per corner. Only other thing I can think of would be to screw an L-bracket on the side. Wouldn't look quite as good but would only need to stick out 1/4" and you could paint or even cover with a bit of trim. Would be nice if you could use springs. They sound better than anything else you could use for this. Or stick furniture felt on the feet and call it good? |
millercarbon OP6,501 posts11-09-2020 4:29pmGreat, what I was hoping. So here's my idea: springs between the speakers and the stands. Don't run! Do it like I'm gonna say and they will look almost exactly the way they do now, BUT they will sound a lot better and no more problems with the stands. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The idea is great, my problem is cutting the pockets. That is apatong wood, (hard) it takes a water cooled bit to cut it.. When I got the legs a mod per leg was, 30.00. I got a hold of the guy to cut the pocket now over 50.00 per pocker 5% accurate. 36 times 50 = 1800.00. There is a one time set up charge of 200, or 250.00. 2100.00 total. LOL the legs were 49-79.00 per set of four... Shems, inner/outer springs for up and down.. Are the springs your using progressively wound? Tighter at the bottom, than at the top? OR Same wrap all the way down? I'll just rebuy and have the mods done and have two set one with and one without. If I decide to go that way... I can dress the space between the two pieces with a leather seal that will look quite nice, and used often as drawer seals, stops and the like... I just have think it out.. That is a few quid.. I know the spring aren't that expensive. Getting them in the leg, AND still mounting the leg too. All the mounting holes would be removed by the spring bore. It would take at least 3 screws to secure the leg, or one through the center. More CNC work if I'm not careful.. Suppose I could drag out my duplicating table, for that.. Lot of time... For making gun stocks, guitars body and necks... Cutting weird stuff.. Just need a master to copy from...and add the water cooling pump, hoses, and return tray... I'm an analog guy, what can I say... :-) Regards |
Vibration control is a balancing act. They do this with all musical instruments. Some parts are designed to vibrate a lot, others for stiffness to better control vibrations. Think neck and frets on a guitar. Craftsmen fine tune this with layers of lacquer. It all contributes to the sound. Its just for some reason when it comes to our systems we don't think of it this way. But it sure seems to be the case. Things I've been doing lately seem to point in the direction of suspending things freely. Everything's a trade off, finding the right balance. Springs alone can leave things free to resonate, and maybe at times too much. My turntable and other stuff sounded great on springs. Until one day there was a deep drone or rumble. It took a lot of chasing down to figure out it was some kind of resonant feedback. The slightest damping of the springs under the turntable would make it go away. As John posted above, Max Townshend being an engineer figured out: The ideal is to have the resonant frequency as low as is possible, ideally around 2Hz in both the horizontal and vertical planes and with a damping ratio of about 0.16. This will give an attenuation of about 25dB at 10 Hz increasing at 20dB per decade above.This fits with what happened with my turntable. At least to the extent I'm able to see with my eyes, not having anything to measure this with. But it sure seems to fit with everything I am able to see and hear. |
Bass and high frequencies better accuracy is one thing to go for sure.... But accuracy of timbre instrument is the most difficult to reach....This accuracy is not the results of only some relative balance between frequencies, it needed more work than just my first fine tune set of springs because of some structural properties of my speakers not taken into account by them (internal resonance ? )... I reach it when i add 2 set of springs boxes on each speakers; one set directly on my multi layered sandwich platform under the speakers, another set of 4 on top of the speakers under the damping and compressing load of concrete on top of my speakers ( 75 pounds)... Before adding the seconds set of 4 boxes, the accuracy of high and balance between high and bass was good with fine tuning the load....But unbeknownst to me, the timbre accuracy was not optimal... Then thinking about an idea suggested by rixthetrick,i was thinking about some way to "fine tune the damp mass" of the concrete load relatively to the mass of the speakers, like for some building but it was complicate for me to make exactly that happen... Instead i decide to add a second set of springs, on top of the speakers under the damping load; this addition of a second springs set to the first set under the speakers work beautifully because of the difference between them of a compressing force equal to the weight of the speakers...This asymmetry between the compressing force working on the second set of 4 springs boxes give an "elasticity" of reaction to the structure of the speakers, and work marvel.... Astounding difference in timbre perception and imaging.... Why ? It is perhaps a greater decrease of this ringing effect which was suggested by millercarbon or a decrease in the internal standing wave of resonance linked to the structural properties of the speakers.... I am not a scientist and cannot be sure about that... But the results are astounding.... I consider my mechanical embedding control task now completed and final with these multi layered sandwiches and double set of springs asymmetrically compressed.... My best to all.... |
I have Vibrapods here and there (and some older sorbothane pads under a CD player) and my system is clear as a bell. The pods keep things from sliding around...perhaps their greatest benefit...my Linn Basik does well with its large rubber cup feet (original, and my Dennis Had amp also gets by quite well with its original little rubber "cup" feet) and since it's near a sub one might think that affects it, and one would be wrong. That old Linn isn't bothered by foot falls (although energetic stomping near it isn't advised) or anything else...Vibrapods are also directly under my Heresy IVs on 1/2 inch fibre and felt discs...perfect. |
Everyone’s case is a bit different. Key is to identify the issues properly first, then address as needed. Do it right and the payoff can be huge. It need not cost a fortune. There are many ways to skin a cat.I think that is very true and well said... But all of us need to take care of the mechanical embeddings problem, in a way or another.... Not only that but the electrical grid embedding problem is also there and the very important acoustical embedding passive treatment but also active control... Indeed there is many ways , and many solutions possible, with each one his merit.... But underestimating the mechanical embedding(vibration and resonance controls) is detrimental to ALL system.... The other 2 embeddings are on the same level at least of importance.....Those who negate that only reflect their lack of experience, or experiments, or simply interest.... Only upgrading money most of the times cannot solve this problem magically without thinking sorry..... :) |
My vibration control is a concrete foundation and a solid wood antique coffee table my gear (save power amps) sit on that is built like a tank that cost me $30 in the used furniture shop in Northern Alabama years ago. Power amps are on a separate antique wood stool with dense padded top. Everything is crystal clear. No feedback to be heard playing records ever and gear sits just a few feet in front of speakers and sub in that room. The background is very black and quiet, would never know there is a tube pre-amp in play. Never had such a clear and robust setup in my life prior. It took some time and effort to identify the issues and address them. I constructed a mu-metal cylinder that my low-level step up transformer sits in to protect it from EMI mainly from HVAC units outside on other side of wall and any other nasty EMI sources that might be nearby, but that has nothing to do with physical vibration. There can be noticeable hum without the mu-metal shield. Then I have my big Ohm F5s in the next room connected via in wall speaker wire. Those sit on built in castors. Again, couldn’t be better. Upstairs on the second floor, with suspended plywood floors, its a bigger challenge. Smaller Ohms sit on Auralex Subdude platforms. Gear in a fairly sturdy Ethan Allen audio cabinet behind wood-framed glass doors. Still not perfect in comparison to downstairs, mainly due to the floor, but under control. Everyone’s case is a bit different. Key is to identify the issues properly first, then address as needed. Do it right and the payoff can be huge. It need not cost a fortune. There are many ways to skin a cat. |
I use machined depleted Uranium cone vibration dampeners with 98 durometer virgin polyurethane vibration absorbers. These rest on 4" thick Italian marble slabs which themselves have an additional set of the above mentioned. It is not just the induced mechanical noise from your devices but even the road close by produces measurable audio distortion when vibrations from passing vehicles create ground resonance. |
Perfect timing, I was just getting to springs. This was a real hard sell for me. Rixthetrick had some pretty good arguments that made me think. Max had some very compelling videos that made me think even more. But thinking has gotten a lot of guys including me in trouble. Only one way to know for sure. Rick was very generous and found me the right springs on eBay for me to check it out. Not any springs will do. They do need to be sized for the weight of the component. Its kind of like what John is saying above, there's always going to be a resonant frequency and you want it to be very low ideally according to Townshend around 2Hz. I still was skeptical. It just seems a speaker on springs, when the cone moves one way the whole loudspeaker is going to move the other way, and there goes your dynamics and transients. But unlike the few others who never acknowledged these problems both Max Townshend and Rick did admit this does happen. Because, physics. Kind of silly when people try and deny physics. (See: using just one sub.) What I was missing though, and what engineer Max points out, is that yes you do lose a tiny amount to that but you gain something much more valuable- a huge reduction in ringing. Ringing is the term for when the whole system is set vibrating and continues to vibrate long after the transient signal that started it all. Ringing is why we want speaker cabinets to be extremely solid and inert. But then we put them on a floor that is anything but. Then we make it worse by using spikes to couple the speakers to the floor. As we already know the idea of spikes as diodes and vibration being a one-way street is unfounded. Vibrations go both ways. Once the floor starts vibrating it sends those vibrations right back up through the loudspeaker cabinet to the driver. At least this is the theory. When it comes to stuff like this I'm pretty agnostic. Too many wonderful theories just don't seem to pan out. My grandmother was from Missouri, the "show me" state, so its in my blood. So I tend to say, nice story. Show me. |
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Great, what I was hoping. So here's my idea: springs between the speakers and the stands. Don't run! Do it like I'm gonna say and they will look almost exactly the way they do now, BUT they will sound a lot better and no more problems with the stands. First get one set of Nobsound springs for every TWO speakers you want to do. One set will do 8 corners. You can do other springs but that will mean a lot more work for hardly any money saved. Cut holes in the stands at the corners where the speakers will go. Hole saw or router. If the stands are as thick as they look you can router them out deep enough and just drop the Nobsound springs in. You will have to experiment to find the right number of springs. Then cut the hole depth just right and the speakers will float on springs with only a barely visible space just above the stands. You do not need a lot of space since the springs only move microscopically when playing music. It will just take a bit of trial and error to get them level at the right height. The springs will pretty much take the stands out of the equation, especially if you put some furniture felt stick-on thingies under their feet. With those speakers you will probably only need 3 or 4 springs per corner, meaning one set of Nobsound will do 8 corners. The springs fit snug into a 1/4" hole. Could hardly be sweeter. |
Yup they are attached via screws, BUT not glue. I can add between the two. I was looking for a finer furniture look though. I was thinking O-Rings between the two, maybe more than one grove, more than one ring.. I just started sound testing. I was surprised.. Those legs and MDF are pretty good. The Hardwood TT plinth, though.. MERCY. The oak is so cured and HARD. Pretty noisy.. It took all summer to get the corner seams to settle. They were glued, a blocks added, drilled, clamped and THEN screwed. I almost had to thread the holes.. that was some HARD wood. Black Oak block and resin. Red oak shins... Stair flats 3 years cured... 1" thick.. Rubber line? What is the name of that sh$t, that you paint on the inside of speaker cabinets... Ceramic paint? Can’t remember... BOTH. Paint and rubber, or silicone paint? Is there such a thing? THE cost... What about that spray stuff for fixing leaking gutters, or holes in boats... That stuff... Gotta be silicone. Chicken feedin’ time... Regards. |
If you just want to fill, mix sand with mineral oil, not much just enough to get good and damp so it packs better. Then mix with lead shot and fill your legs. But those legs are stubby, doubt this will do much. I have a much better idea but need to know: Are the stands and speakers two separate things or all fastened together? |
have an idea that can be DIY that you may like? And you could paint to match the cabinets. You have a PM mate <<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm all ears.. LOL, and out of gas. Man oh man, I get tired easy.. Winter is gonna be here in an instant.. I'm moving all the outside stuff inside.. PM me, I want to share the vibration stuff, and not clog MC thread up with the other, kinda tough.. I'm gonna try though.. I've set up a pit.. for the MB columns. Adjustable dampening for Hydraulics is another option. Rexroth make a wonderful 12-24 vdc unit, fully adjustable a and b circuits... for loads from 50lb to 5000lb, shock ratings are VERY quick... As fast as a hammer strike... https://www.boschrexroth.com/en/us/products/product-groups/mobile-hydraulics/topics/accumulators/ind... look about mid page, THAT is a bidirectional with neutral hydraulic A/B dampening circuit. Elect over Hydraulic... Add shocks and a henge, almost perfect in design.. 100% dampening adjustments for every weight and speed.. THEN springs would be easier to implement, if at all, compare air ride to spring over... USE BOTH, the best of old and new. Cantilever..??? That could handle 2 -10 pieces (circuits) for around 1500.00 for 4 speakers and at least one HEAVY Equipment rack.... gears are grinding for sure. 400 lb speakers and 500-1000 lb for the TT and gear rack.. Regards.. |
MC, I have an issue that is going to be rising, same thing.. Leg on the speakers! I have 5 pieces that are on Queen Ann legs, there will be 9 total. 4 leg per. The cabinets vary from, hardwood, to MDF and HDF. I need to figure some type of magic for the vibration issues in the hardwood legs. I’m thinking drilling and filling with lead, and or silicone? problem is if I fill with silicone and don’t like it... Hard to get back out.. Lead shot? I have a shot maker. Been 45 years, but it turns out 50 at a pop...3 different sizes.. What you think on the legs and dampening (vibration control). I’m at a stop because of it.. I know I can bore the legs and add the shafts for the shot.. I just want a simpler solution... AND not kill the "Look" that was the reason to begin with. Elegance and complete precticaly.. I want it all. Silly me.. Put the legs in pots? or a pit? AGAIN what the heck is that gonna look like? :-) I like LEGS... what can I say? I know ugly works... OK I know.. I was going more for the Ginger Rogers Gams though... Regards... |
Yes indeed. Funny you should ask. I look for truth from simple experiments Exactly. In a way, what this whole thread is about: trying things out. Rick checked in at an opportune moment because this is right about the point where he comes in. Up to this point I was pretty well convinced the key to vibration control was basically to clamp or fix things in place so they can’t move. When done with the right materials this definitely improves a lot of things. But as my system kept getting better and better there was this sense of a sort of hardness creeping in. Not an edge really just certain sounds were harder on the ears than it seemed they should be. I now suspect this was due to ringing. But we’re getting ahead of ourselves here. Rick it turns out is big on vibration control, has been working on this a long time, and is a big proponent of springs. Seemed like a waste but he was pleasant enough, and even better had a good argument: No matter what you do (the old-school cones/spikes way) vibrations are going to get into the floor, rack, shelf, etc. and then the whole speaker/floor/room system is vibrating. Well then if that is the case (which it is) then a lot of that energy is coming right back into the speaker, and its vibrating, only now not the way we want but in sympathy with the floor. Worse, the same thing is feeding up into my precious turntable. Everything else too of course. So Rick is telling me springs under the speakers will be huge. First because the speakers themselves will sound better, and also because less vibration going into the floor means less into the rest of the system. |
Shunyata, In-Akustic, ARTISTCLONER, Audioquest, Nordost to name a few are manufacturers of cable risers who have also embraced isolation techniques to their products. MC we discussed this in conversation, and off you went to investigate this yourself. Apparently you experimented with this and came to your own conclusions? (Hello Mahgister) |
@mahgister For vibrations isolation and controls, and for resonance controls( yes they are 2 different things) ANY system at ANY price will benefit greatly ... Saying otherwise has only one explanation, you never experiment or you never listen to the results..... I admit, I've never tried putting an isolation platform or Rollerblocks under my Sonos1 speaker in the kitchen or my iPhone. I will try and report back on the results. |
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Likely before you all were doing any of this, I was damping the undersides of tt platters, speaker horns, woofer / driver frames and cabinets, books and bricks on top of and under components, changing out the a cheap thin power cords with shielded heavy duty ones, isolating power transformers from their chassis’s, damping heat sinks, and so on and so on. I agree with much that has been said. The system must be to a certain point, high resolution ( inclusive of the room ), and our ears / brain / listening ability, needs to be somewhat " learned ", " experienced ", and " relaxed ". I say relaxed, because otherwise, we might be fooling ourselves with much of this. I do agree, completely with MC, that everything matters, and everything is audible, under the right and consistent conditions. What I have touted on many threads, is there is never " this is the end all ", or this is the best ", because, we are all different in what we hear, different in what we want, and as long as you get to that place of musical enjoyment, great. Arguing about various feet and platforms is worthless. We try it, we like it. We try something else, we like it more, or not. Part of the merry go round, about the hobby, all about the universal language....of music. |
Mahgister I believe it was you who suggested holding a speaker cable while playing music. The vibrations especially with bass are surprisingly strong.:) I dont think it was me.... But ANY changes can affect the audio system sound, in the mechanical,electrical or acoustical embeddings dimension.... It is very easy to verify by listenings experiments... And any part of any electronic component vibrate caused by external and internal actions....Most people must know that with 5 seconds of reflexion...For a physicist there is no need to think about that..... :) Is it audible? Coming from an S.S. amplifier less audible than coming from a tube amplifier, and coming from speakers this is evident.....But any component vibrate and create some negative synchronisation or obstructive regime....I am not a scientist at all.... I only listen and make experiment.... Simple one .... |
Vibrations produce fascinating patterns that vary with frequency. https://youtu.be/WmwnN_T_wW8?t=31 Happens in all materials, forming different patterns with different shaped materials. Happens everywhere from the cantilever to the speaker diaphragm. Even seemingly inert wires. Mahgister I believe it was you who suggested holding a speaker cable while playing music. The vibrations especially with bass are surprisingly strong. In hindsight this makes total sense. Electric current produces magnetic fields that attract and repel. So of course an alternating current will produce alternating magnetic fields that will cause it to vibrate. |
I believe it’s MC’s theory that there is no system regardless of how poor and unresolving, not to materially benefit from better isolation/vibration control and better cabling. I disagree. While these elements are important they truly only move the needle when the speakers, amplification and source components are of high quality. Putting high octane fuel in a Yugo isn’t really going to make a differenceFor cabling you are relatively right or near the truth.... Most cables dont make a difference that is on par with the mechanical, electrical or acoustical embeddings controls in most low or medium Hi-Fi system....The only exception will be changing cables perhaps on an already well embedded very costly and sensitive audio system.... Cables are different, dont distort my words, but mechanical embedding fo example work powefully on all S.Q. aspects at least on par with changing cables; and if we add the 2 other embeddings controls there is no more comparison.... For example acoustical active controls and passive treatment litteraly can transform your audio system and put it on another level..... I know my low cost 500 hundred audio vintage system is very hard to upgrade for me.... It will cost me over 10,000 dollars to do so with an upgraded but rightfully embedded new audio system.... For vibrations isolation and controls, and for resonance controls( yes they are 2 different things) ANY system at ANY price will benefit greatly ... Saying otherwise has only one explanation, you never experiment or you never listen to the results..... My best to you.... |
Glad to hear we agree for once. Except the metaphor for vibration control in a car would be better shocks and springs, which definitely will improve handling making the car faster. Still, nice to hear you admit vibration control does "move the needle" in the direction we want it to go. Let's see now, where were we.... Oh yeah- Everything seemed to be saying load it up, clamp it down, constrain layer damp it, spike it, drain it. Even people talking isolation were still using spikes, doing the same thing, just calling it something different by pretending the spike is a diode. This approach definitely had some good things going for it- or me and a whole bunch of other people wouldn't have been doing it! The stiff, massive and highly damped approach definitely improves bass extension and slam, and dynamics, lowers the noise floor, and makes more details pop out. No wonder it became so popular. Its also easy to experiment with it. Really soft low mass high damping factor stuff like sorbothane can be used to tame a hot top end. It sucks a bit of the dynamic life out of the music, but used carefully can be a good compromise. Same for things like sand boxes. Not the stiffest material, but massive, good for eliminating low amplitude high frequency noise especially from things like turntables. Mahgister has a lot of great examples of this where he has experimented by listening and matching different layers of different materials until he comes up with the right overall balance. |
I believe it’s MC’s theory that there is no system regardless of how poor and unresolving, not to materially benefit from better isolation/vibration control and better cabling. I disagree. While these elements are important they truly only move the needle when the speakers, amplification and source components are of high quality. Putting high octane fuel in a Yugo isn’t really going to make a difference. |
millercarbon wrote: That's a big part of what I'm trying to get across with all these stories: no one thing is perfect, but we can hear the effects and use what works. The same is true for all our components. So as our systems change something that once worked well for what we had then might not work so well with what we have now. |
MC-This is the 2nd thing that people have accused you for promoting/selling. We all know what the other product is. There are so many devices out there that handle your subject of vibrations. Currently, the better products are not cones or spikes at all and they can cost a few bucks. The better products for example are the magic mpods and the isoacoustics devices. There is a lot going on within these devices then simply transferring vibrations using a solid cone/spike. You should have a good quality system before spending this kind of money because you won't get all the benefits that these devices can achieve on lesser equipment. |