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Millercarbon's Mega Vibration Control Journey

Vibration control is such a huge, and hugely important, topic it deserves a thread of its own. There was a time I thought it nuts to say such a thing. In fact I wrote a letter to the editor excoriating them for wasting my time on the goofy idea that clamping components between shelves could have any effect on sound at all, let alone be worth spending good money on a rack designed to do just that. This was the Michael Green rack, and thanks to my closed mind and dismissive attitude I never did bother to try and find out for myself if there was anything to it.  

Important Lesson Number One: Don't be so quick to dismiss things just because you can't understand how they could work. 

Couple years later unpacking a McCormack DNA1 amp the Owner's Manual says the included spike can be used to improve sound quality. Well now. As crazy as it still sounded this time its Steve McCormack, and he's already given me the spike, so what do I have to lose? Much to my surprise it did indeed improve the sound. Not a lot. But definitely more detail, clarity.  

This is very early 1990's. There is no internet. I know precisely zero audiophiles. Until stumbling upon this one guy at work who says oh yeah and put your CDP on a phone book, and another one on top. Which sounded even crazier but the guy was serious and this being the 90's we all had phone books laying around so I gave it a shot. This time it was only the most barely perceptible improvement, but it was there. If you really listened for it. So not much. Then again, free. Wrapped some fabric around it, ran the CDP like this for quite some time. 

Around this time I'm shopping for components for my new listening room when this guy is more excited about something called Black Diamond Racing Cones than the amp or whatever he was trying to sell me. So I get 3 of these things and they're so much better than the phone book its hard to believe! Well, okay, it was a phone book. Got to compare against something, right? 

These Cones are so good I take them to this Seattle audiophile club and show them around all excited and.... nobody cares. Except this one guy who goes on and on about how he has tried phone books, tennis balls, racquet balls, styrofoam, cones, spikes, on and on everything under the sun, he's tried it all there's just no way he's gonna be impressed- he makes this very clear to me- but okay you're the new guy let me borrow em why not. But they're not gonna work. No way. 

Next day this guy calls me up gushing going on and on how great these are what are they again where did you find em how many can I get? I actually wind up becoming the Washington State distributor for Black Diamond Racing selling Cones, Shelf, all of it. This guy winds up like me, pretty much everything on BDR.  https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367  

A lot of what I knew about vibration control back then was based on my own experience with BDR, and learning from owner DJ Casser. This resulted in what became my guiding principles of vibration control: Mass, Stiffness, and Damping.
millercarbon

Showing 9 responses by mahgister

mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,277 posts
 
With the speakers using a fine tuned damping and compressive load, with one set of 4 springs boxes under the speaker and another set on top of the speaker and directly under the load and then fine tuning the load is the key to an increase S.Q. because the difference on the applied compressive force between the 2 sets of springs decrease also the power of the negative internal resonance of the speaker...

Then the load is not only there to damp the speaker but also to work as a compressive force differently on 2 points: under of the speaker and on top of it, creating then an elasticity in the speaker reaction to his vibration and internal resonance also....


I am not a scientist but it is only my explanation...
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,277 posts
 
At least half the upgrades moves and more are the result of ignorance and comes from a great frustration more than from the necessity to do so....

It is my experience.... I cannot prove it but i listen to my 500 used vintage system smiling at any possible upgrade like it would be unnecassary...( diminishing return law)

Embed rightfully anything before upgrading something....

The greatest increase in S.Q. comes from the 3 embeddings implementation not from an upgrade of an electronic component most of the times.... There is exception for sure.... I will never pretend than a 20,000 speakers is on the same footing than a bad pair of cheap speakers for example....

A low cost amplifier cannot trash a Berning amplifier for example, even my extraordinary Sandui AU 7700 will be beaten....

But rightfully embedded i will live with it without even looking for any replacement....

If the piano sound does not come from the speakers no more and inhabit the room in 3-d, you are there with the Sansui or with the more refined Berning..... The difference really comes from a rightful embedding more than from the amplifier upgrading..... The 2 amplifiers are myth and legend on their own anyway and the 2 are very good....

Vibrations and resonance controls are the beginning and the more easy task between the 2 other embeddings (electrical and acoustical)....Try to think about it.....This thread is an occasion to do so....Dont upgrade before thinking....

:)





mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,277 posts
 
Bass and high frequencies better accuracy is one thing to go for sure....

But accuracy of timbre instrument is the most difficult to reach....This accuracy is not the results of only some relative balance between frequencies, it needed more work than just my first fine tune set of springs because of some structural properties of my speakers not taken into account by them (internal resonance ? )...


I reach it when i add 2 set of springs boxes on each speakers; one set directly on my multi layered sandwich platform under the speakers, another set of 4 on top of the speakers under the damping and compressing load of concrete on top of my speakers ( 75 pounds)...

Before adding the seconds set of 4 boxes, the accuracy of high and balance between high and bass was good with fine tuning the load....But unbeknownst to me, the timbre accuracy was not optimal...

Then thinking about an idea suggested by rixthetrick,i was thinking about some way to "fine tune the damp mass" of the concrete load relatively to the mass of the speakers, like for some building but it was complicate for me to make exactly that happen...

 Instead i decide to add a second set of springs, on top of the speakers under the damping load; this addition of a second springs set to the first set under the speakers work beautifully because of the difference between them of a compressing force equal to the weight of the speakers...This asymmetry between the compressing force working on the second set of 4 springs boxes give an "elasticity" of reaction to the structure of the speakers, and work marvel....

Astounding difference in timbre perception and imaging....

Why ?

It is perhaps a greater decrease of this ringing effect which  was suggested by  millercarbon or a decrease in the internal standing wave of resonance linked to the structural properties of the speakers.... I am not a scientist and cannot be sure about that...

But the results are astounding.... I consider my mechanical embedding control task now  completed and final with these multi layered sandwiches and double set of springs asymmetrically compressed....

My best to all....
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,277 posts
 
Everyone’s case is a bit different. Key is to identify the issues properly first, then address as needed. Do it right and the payoff can be huge. It need not cost a fortune. There are many ways to skin a cat.
I think that is very true and well said...

But all of us need to take care of the mechanical embeddings problem, in a way or another.... Not only that but the electrical grid embedding problem is also there and the very important acoustical embedding passive treatment but also active control...

Indeed there is many ways , and many solutions possible, with each one his merit....

But underestimating the mechanical embedding(vibration and resonance controls) is detrimental to ALL system.... The other 2 embeddings are on the same level at least of importance.....Those who negate that only reflect their lack of experience, or experiments, or simply interest.... Only upgrading money most of the times cannot solve this problem magically without thinking sorry.....

:)
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,277 posts
 
Arguing with good faith exclude easy sarcasm...

I look for truth from simple experiments, keep the rest....

My best to you....
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,277 posts
 

rixthetrick  Welcome to a friendly ghost....
:)
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,277 posts
 
Mahgister I believe it was you who suggested holding a speaker cable while playing music. The vibrations especially with bass are surprisingly strong.
:)

I dont think it was me....

But ANY changes can affect the audio system sound, in the mechanical,electrical or acoustical embeddings dimension.... It is very easy to verify by listenings experiments...

And any part of any electronic component vibrate caused by external and internal actions....Most people must know that with 5 seconds of reflexion...For a physicist there is no need to think about that..... :)

Is it audible?  Coming from an S.S. amplifier less audible than coming from a tube amplifier, and coming from speakers this is evident.....But any component vibrate and create some negative synchronisation or obstructive regime....I am not a scientist at all.... I only listen and make experiment.... Simple one ....  


mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,277 posts
 
I believe it’s MC’s theory that there is no system regardless of how poor and unresolving, not to materially benefit from better isolation/vibration control and better cabling. I disagree. While these elements are important they truly only move the needle when the speakers, amplification and source components are of high quality. Putting high octane fuel in a Yugo isn’t really going to make a difference
For cabling you are relatively right or near the truth.... Most cables dont make a difference that is on par with the mechanical, electrical or acoustical embeddings controls in most low or medium Hi-Fi system....The only exception will be changing cables perhaps on an already well embedded very costly and sensitive audio system....

Cables are different, dont distort my words, but mechanical embedding fo example work powefully on all S.Q. aspects at least on par with changing cables; and if we add the 2 other embeddings controls there is no more comparison.... For example acoustical active controls and passive treatment litteraly can transform your audio system and put it on another level..... I know my low cost 500 hundred audio vintage system is very hard to upgrade for me.... It will cost me over 10,000 dollars to do so with an upgraded but rightfully embedded new audio system....

For vibrations isolation and controls, and for resonance controls( yes they are 2 different things) ANY system at ANY price will benefit greatly ... Saying otherwise has only one explanation, you never experiment or you never listen to the results.....

My best to you....
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
13,277 posts
 
For turntables isolation is critical for everything else it is not. Just a waste of money.
Sorry but for speakers it is more than very important..... My experience.....

The impactful results of resonance/vibration controls embeddings is very audible....The problem is the way to reach results is a complex problem...

I solve it myself for my speakers with sandwich of multi layered materials but it was, unbeknownst to me at first, unsufficient and not completely positive, then i added a damping loaded fine-tuned double set of springs boxes with asymmetrical fine-tuned compressing force for those under the speakers and for an another set under the load on top of the speakers...That gives astounding positive results on ALL counts not only between bass and high frequencies but for timbre accurate perception and imaging....The dissymetry between compressing force and the fine tuning of the load are CRUX of the matter....One set of springs boxes were not sufficient for me, it takes 2 sets for optimal spectacular results.... But it worked....


Saying other wise and vouching that vibrations/resonance embeddings controls is without interest and a waste of money reveal a lack of listening experiments ....I will concede tough that many branded products are probably only partially effective at best, for example the set of springs boxes under the speakers were not totally successful positive controls like it seems at first, it takes for me a double sets to reach naturalness of timbre, one set cannot do it because internal resonance of the speakers are too powerful with their negative impact but their power was decreased with a dissymetrical compressing force on the 2 sets of springs... But with a double sets it was spectacular indeed....Fine tuning the compressing load was very important and is very important even for one set of box springs....Then the easy solutions are perhaps difficult to reach...But the controls of vibrations with speakers is very important and not only for turntable where it is evident....My speakers are near my other electronic components on the same desk then particularly important for me to solve this problem...


My best to you and to all....
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