Millercarbon's Mega Vibration Control Journey

That's a big part of what I'm trying to get across with all these stories: no one thing is perfect, but we can hear the effects and use what works. The same is true for all our components. So as our systems change something that once worked well for what we had then might not work so well with what we have now.  

I'm a bit late to the game with isolation having only tried Herbie's products. They used to work for me and after a few rounds of component changes, the magic just wasn't there. In fact, those footers were having a negative effect so I stopped completely with isolation and relied on my solid maple media stand and rack, allowing the mass of it to do the trick.

After reading about Isocacoustic's Oreas, I gave them a try and boy did they make a difference. With just my integrated, everything came into shaper focus. Then with my SACD player, the sounds now went out in all directions, kind of like the reverse of what and how a microphone picks up the sound. It wasn't quite holographic as the layering remained the same but the sounds that emanate from their sources are much more convincing.

Now being a convert, I tried what I had on my power conditioner and using just one Les Davis constrained layer damping pad at each end of my conditioner, as it stands on its side, was all that was needed to change what sounded like a tonal shift, more than anything else, for the better. Any added layer lowered the dominant tone and using none increased it. Kind of like finding the right key to play the music.

To a lessor extent, but still an extent, my cables are all elevated on 49¢ glass candle holders from Ikea. They were cheap enough to try and do the job.

No one's system needs any negative waves to ruin the day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT9Lm4Y886k

All the best,
Nonoise

Around this time another experiment that might seem unrelated was going on: cable elevators. They work. No doubt about it. But, why? One theory was that insulation quality makes a big difference, carpets and flooring aren't quality insulators, and so the improvement was in being further from them. Another idea was elevating them somehow reduces harmful static electricity. I don't recall anyone then - or now, for that matter - thinking it had anything to do with vibration control.

Spoiler alert: I do now!

oldhvymec1,347 posts11-07-2020 12:15pm"I must apologize. LOL If you could have seen it it was pretty dramatic.
I guess it was not for everyone... Was off subject a bit.. But Dads vary.... LOL War Dogs are War dogs.. We get to enjoy EVEN the the right to delete.."

I read your post before it disappeared and saw nothing wrong with it, but apparently someone thought differently. In these chaotic times, I guess that any mention of violence or guns is frowned upon.

millercarbon OP6,455 posts11-07-2020 11:35amThe early bird reads the good post. Got to be fast to beat the snowflakes and censors around here. oldhvymec triggered someone with his edifying and entertaining post, now removed, leaving us all the poorer. Such are the times these sad dark days.

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I must apologize. LOL If you could have seen it it was pretty dramatic.
I guess it was not for everyone... Was off subject a bit.. But Dads vary.... LOL War Dogs are War dogs.. We get to enjoy EVEN the the right to delete..


Vibrate on good fellows, vibrate on... I'm good for one every now and then for sure... The dog is giving me the look...  She hates to give up.. LOL. terriers...

Regards..

The early bird reads the good post. Got to be fast to beat the snowflakes and censors around here. oldhvymec triggered someone with his edifying and entertaining post, now removed, leaving us all the poorer. Such are the times these sad dark days.

Why don’t you just move along if it bothers you so much? Not like anyone is forcing you to read this. Far from it. If you’re not man enough to handle diverse points of view why bully your intolerant narrow mindedness on everyone else? Why not just move along? Please?



The prevailing wisdom back then was vibration flows, and you can "drain" vibrations with sharp spikes that are like diodes, allowing vibrations to flow out but not back in. Huge amount of guys bought into this.

This never made any sense to me. On the one hand we were supposed to believe the spikes had to be sharp to cut through carpet and stuff and go into the floor, the better to rigidly couple or anchor the speakers. But on the other hand these same spikes were supposed to somehow drain energy from other components, or prevent room vibrations from getting into the components. Or something like that. The story changes every telling, no one ever bothering to point out the logical inconsistencies.

To me it seemed most of the vibrations were coming from the components themselves. That would explain why a phone book or other mass placed on top affected the sound. It changed the vibrations of the component itself.

One totally unexpected experience seemed to prove this. Doing a Cone demo one time for a friend, instead of stopping and starting I lifted the CD player to remove the Cones with the music still playing. My friend said he heard the sound change- and become worse- the instant it was lifted off the Cones!

If isolation was so important then surely my hands are more isolation than Cones. It should have sounded better not worse. If sharp spikes was the answer then it should sound better on them instead of being better on the rounded off BDR Cones. Just one of many observations that had me pretty well convinced the key to vibration control was control. As in stopping it. With stiff and highly damped mass.

I had just turned 12 years old. My father was just back from South East Asia. He had just retired. 3 guys and a female in a car, ran into the back of the car. we were in.. They were DRUNK... No biggie right... The three guys start swearing at my father, one hit him. It WAS all over in less than a min. 

I didn't see he had gotten out of the car with a small ball peen hammer.

3 men lay  there moaning and one female screaming at everyone, except me.. I stayed in the car and got the 38 out of the glove box. I new I wasn't gonna get hit by ANYONE.... A kid from the south (and all over the world by then), in California, and 4 people thought they were gonna beat someone, up... I know what I would have done. Exactly what I was trained to do...Stop them by ANY means necessary...12 years old....

Dad fight....  They were really lucky, I seen him do a lot worse, when he was drinking...

Number one reason I don't let the piano drink...Too much Irish in the wood and ivory.. :-)

Regards..

“Okay so here's how it works. You take a jab like that, turnbowm, boy do I hope you got your money's worth. Because congratulations, you made the list. This is the one and only response from me you will ever get.  I am my own moderator, and you are banned. I see your name, I stop reading. Got it? Good.”

I love all this!  Please, moderator, don’t turn this off. It’s like coming out of a pub at night and watching a Dad-fight. You know nobody is going to get hurt like in a real fight, so you enjoy it all the more!

Limited time and money. So everyone knows the rack and everything else we're talking about here is a compromise of some kind.

I'm talking about the rack because that's when I really started thinking seriously about vibration control. Which is funny because even before the rack there was the turntable. Turntables are a study in vibration control! The whole thing is doing nothing but vibrating. Something that now seems almost self-evident, but to me back then (as with a lot of guys it seems) it seemed like all the vibration was coming from the floor, or rack, or whatever. There was almost no thought given to the cartridge, arm, the table itself. Oh well. Live and learn.  

My first table was a Basis 2001. At first it went right on the floor. Then it went on two sheets of 3/4" MDF glued together. With different things, eventually BDR Cones, under the MDF. With a Graham 2.0 arm and Benz Glider I thought this sounded really good!  

For some strange reason I can never quite understand turntables seem to be really mysterious. Maybe because I went with the Basis it never was quite so hard to understand. The Basis arrives disassembled. Its really nothing more than 1" acrylic with some holes drilled, into which you screw four footers, the bearing, and your arm. An awful lot of turntables are to this day nothing more than that: plinth, feet, holes. Okay, motor.

The trick it turns out is in how each of these controls vibration. The Basis used four pods or footers that were little cylinders filled with silicone fluid. Inside that were springs with little paddles that made the whole thing like a sort of shock absorber- spring and damper all in one.  

Looking back, why I did not experiment with different viscosities, or none, is beyond me. Oh well. Live and learn.

Because that was my first hands-on experience with springs, only it wasn't much experience, because I wasted the opportunity to try and learn. Been making up for lost time ever since....

millercarbon OP6,439 posts11-05-2020 6:50pm
"....Okay so here's how it works. You take a jab like that, turnbowm, boy do I hope you got your money's worth. Because congratulations, you made the list. This is the one and only response from me you will ever get.  I am my own moderator, and you are banned. I see your name, I stop reading. Got it? Good....."

Knowing that I will no longer be a recipient of your condescending arrogance is like a gift. Thanks, much appreciated! 

Thank you, oldhvymec, made my day. How right you are.

mahgister-

The impactful results of resonance/vibration controls embeddings is very audible....The problem is the way to reach results is a complex problem...

Yes indeed we are on the same page. As you well know. And as will become even more clear as the story unfolds.

We left off with the turntable stand. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 This was based on everything learned in those two years of testing out what was around at the time. Remember again, have to keep reminding people, this was before the internet. Now you just change your browser from Goolag to one that actually works and find what you want in no time flat.  

At this time, based on everything tried, I had come up with my own working principles of vibration control based on stiffness, mass, and damping. Stiffness in materials gives a faster sound. Mass improves bass extension and impact. Damping lowers background noise. Each of these also has its downside. The trick is like mahgister said to find the right balance.

What I came up with was solid concrete, with a sand bed cast into it, and granite on top. The idea being the sand will damp the stiff and massive concrete and granite.  

Seemed like a good idea until the granite came and holy crap granite rings like a bell!

Important Lesson Number Two: Shape matters! A block of aluminum seems pretty inert, an empty aluminum can doesn't ring either. But what's a tuning fork made out of? Aluminum. And those things ring and ring like forever. So shape is really important too.

Thinking fast, what if the three solid concrete shelves are bolted solidly together? Take ABS, fill it with concrete, with bolts cast in so they screw into matching threaded inserts in the shelves. Super strong, stiff, and massive, now also damped by virtue of the bolted together columns. When bolted together its almost like one solid block of concrete.

It worked! The whole thing bolted together and with the granite on top weighs in around 700 lbs. Its pretty dead too. The sand bed however turned out totally inadequate to control the granite ringing. You could hit the granite and hear it, "ting". Not "tiiiiinnnngg" like before. So better. But still.... So I got another machinists plate and put it on top of the first one, with a layer of Blue Tack in between. A sort of reversible constrained layer damping. That's why there's granite on top of granite here.

This by the way is exactly what mahgister is talking about. No one material by itself has exactly the perfect set of properties we want. By trial and error, and with a lot of serious listening, they can be matched together to get whatever balance of sound we are looking for. Or close as we can, given limited time and money. ;)  

oldhvymec1,338 posts11-06-2020 8:19am
"turnbowm242 posts11-06-2020 6:48am@millercarbon - You never answered my question regarding SR, but I think the answer is rather clear.

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If you read he did answered you, the one time he will. You got your shot across the bow, and he sunk your row boat... :-)"

MC made NO mention of SR whatsoever in his reply to me. That aside, being a Navy veteran I enjoyed your nautical humor. Thanks!

turnbowm242 posts11-06-2020 6:48am@millercarbon - You never answered my question regarding SR, but I think the answer is rather clear.

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If you read he did  answered you, the one time he will. You got your shot across the bow, and he sunk your row boat... :-) 

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Vibration / resonance are two different things.. Most speakers made with single and double layer 3/4 MDF, just won’t cut it.. HDF and panel breaks to control and tune the enclosure. You can’t have a thin light box. I found the more the enclosures sound like green concrete, laying on the ground, the easier it is to make the enclosure GO AWAY.. I’m not kidding at least 50 lb a foot for the enclosure. THEN vibration is not as big an issue, for the speakers drivers. Think about the enclosure shaking and a Voice coil trying to move smoothly through a very tight cylinder... Vibration is a driver killer in the long run... 

Vibration due to VIBRATION. BASS, making stuff shake... OK simple answers. I studied the mass loading thing. Interesting indeed!! It still has the same effect as a making the cabinet (enclosure) out of a better dampened cabinet material to begin with.. Aluminum, will ring like a bell, but cast the stuff, add fluff.. one great sounding material...Add 1 layer of rubber (silicone) between 3 layers of 3/4 mdf...Works good...

For my TT stuff you have to have good isolation from the sound in the room and from the vibration it is making... BOTH help a lot for, my CD players too. I try to keep tube amps, isolated pretty much.. SS not near as much. I find less distortion, clearity, and longevity increased for the actual valves..

I lift cables because it’s easier to clean.. really, I lift and separate cables though, I won’t let cables touch AT ALL, if they have to cross, 90 degree.

If I had it my way.. an Ampa style music room, no top, no sides, and carved out of a mountain side.... There would be NO vibration... Bring your own seat cushion, its gonna be a tough set without one...

I set up and listen, for sometimes a year, then tear down inspect, change as needed.... always a little change or something I been working on..

Regards...

mijostyn

For turntables isolation is critical for everything else it is not ...

C'mon, @mijostyn, you should use a smiley so that readers know when you're just funnin' with us.

“For turntables isolation is critical for everything else it is not.”

I beg to differ as well. I’ve heard huge improvements by using isolation footers underneath my CD players and digital streamer that uses a HDD/SDD storage. I am quite happy with Finite Elemente’s Cerabase Slimline footers. No, I’m not a rep. LOL!

For turntables isolation is critical for everything else it is not. Just a waste of money.

Sorry but for speakers it is more than very important..... My experience.....

The impactful results of resonance/vibration controls embeddings is very audible....The problem is the way to reach results is a complex problem...

I solve it myself for my speakers with sandwich of multi layered materials but it was, unbeknownst to me at first, unsufficient and not completely positive, then i added a damping loaded fine-tuned double set of springs boxes with asymmetrical fine-tuned compressing force for those under the speakers and for an another set under the load on top of the speakers...That gives astounding positive results on ALL counts not only between bass and high frequencies but for timbre accurate perception and imaging....The dissymetry between compressing force and the fine tuning of the load are CRUX of the matter....One set of springs boxes were not sufficient for me, it takes 2 sets for optimal spectacular results.... But it worked....


Saying other wise and vouching that vibrations/resonance embeddings controls is without interest and a waste of money reveal a lack of listening experiments ....I will concede tough that many branded products are probably only partially effective at best, for example the set of springs boxes under the speakers were not totally successful positive controls like it seems at first, it takes for me a double sets to reach naturalness of timbre, one set cannot do it because internal resonance of the speakers are too powerful with their negative impact but their power was decreased with a dissymetrical compressing force on the 2 sets of springs... But with a double sets it was spectacular indeed....Fine tuning the compressing load was very important and is very important even for one set of box springs....Then the easy solutions are perhaps difficult to reach...But the controls of vibrations with speakers is very important and not only for turntable where it is evident....My speakers are near my other electronic components on the same desk then particularly important for me to solve this problem...


My best to you and to all....

@millercarbon - You never answered my question regarding SR, but I think the answer is rather clear.

I've used BDR cones in the past and found them to make thinks darker sounding BUT love their shelves still use several in my system.

For turntables isolation is critical for everything else it is not. Just a waste of money.

Buy music not nonsense. 

Have you thought about using active vibration control or custom designed Silent Running Audio made for your equipment ? BDR is one approach and I am sure results were positive...just wondering if active vibration control or if SRA is on par, or better, given the technology used. 

+1 3ez

+1 3ez

Wow. turnbowm, The propensity for ignoring useful information to hatefully go after me is just staggering. Because how could anyone fail to understand? Its clearly stated this was the 1990's. For you who are so challenged, math I know can be hard, that was like 30 years ago. English too, apparently. Takes at least grade school level reading to understand everything in the OP happened way back in the 90's. Is it not clearly stated this is a journey? Its only just begun.

Okay so here's how it works. You take a jab like that, turnbowm, boy do I hope you got your money's worth. Because congratulations, you made the list. This is the one and only response from me you will ever get.  I am my own moderator, and you are banned. I see your name, I stop reading. Got it? Good.

Yes Easy, this being 30 years ago there's probably all kinds of stuff that's better by now. In fact I KNOW there's at least some stuff that's better now. As will become clear, that is the whole point of the journey. One step at a time.

Sorry. Okay. Now where were we? Oh yeah, DJ. 

DJ had this great saying: The best rack is no rack. This being the 1990's and me being tapped out from remodeling all my meager money went into components with precious little left over for fancy racks. Especially not if the rack was liable to only make things worse. (I did of course buy one anyway. But that's jumping ahead.)  

In the beginning my McCormack amp (yes the one with the vibration control spike, the spike that started it all) was on a plank. Just a bare plank. 2x12. When you see guys with the cinder block and plank looking for a better rack, that was me. Except I didn't even have the cinder blocks!

Because, being sound quality obsessed, in order to add a rack it had to be better than the floor. Or at least not too much worse. Which almost all racks are. (Do NOT take my word for it- try it and see for yourself!) For sure this being the 90's all racks were much worse than the floor. All I could afford anyway. 

Fortunately one thing I figured out early was you can test materials in small pieces. Learned this from the McCormack spike. Manual said try things like a coin under the spike. Sure enough the coin did change the sound! Different materials had different sounds! 

Tried a whole bunch of different things. Wood of different species (pine, oak, cocobolo, etc) sounds good, but not neutral. MDF sounds neutral (less colored) but not as good, if that makes any sense. A lot of guys prefer the little added euphonic kick of certain hardwoods. I was leery of something that made certain instruments sound "better". I don't want them to sound any particular way at all. That's the job of the recording, mastering, and pressing people. Mine is to display, not editorialize on, their work. 

This took a good year at least. Long enough to be sick and tired of laying down on the floor to play a record. But also all that time made me good and familiar with that on the floor sound. My rack had better be at least as good as the floor!

(DJ would build me a rack, but for about $7k and remember: 1994. That's about a million in today's dollars.)

What finally came out of all this, sure enough, did turn out to be at least as good as the floor. https://theanalogdept.com/images/spp6_pics/C_miller_web/TTstand_1.jpg

Symposium's Rollerblock Jr's absolutely blow away BDR cones (and yes, I have many of both).  And no, I'm not a rep. lol

Just received 2 sets of those SXXH spring-loaded footers from China. Look well made. Will report after a few days of listening. Onward freaks!

It's amazing that someone who believes vibration control is hugely important (which it is) also feels that cart/tonearm compliance is a bunch of BS and can be ignored.  Can someone say cognitive dissonance???

"....I actually wind up becoming the Washington State distributor for Black Diamond Racing selling Cones, Shelf, all of it....."

Now I see why you were always pushing BDR cones. Do you also have a financial relationship with SR?  

Hi Chuck,
No wonder you like and use BDR.
I am waiting for two vibration treatments: SRA VR platform for the TT and Stillpoints for the preamp.
Interesting perspective is the Star Sound platforms. He says that draining vibration is important but resonance is important to keep.
I don’t exactly grok this. But his platforms have spikes and sort of flexible material which hold the component. Stillpoints use ceramic bearings between stainless. So vibration is drained by converting to heat. BTW-I’m in Portland and looking forward to things improving enough to have a Seattle Audio Show!