Manufacturers pushing their products and agenda in the forums.

I agree 100% with Elizabeth's comments about the hyperbolic shill crowd, and Frank's comment is a tasteless and irrelevant blurb. When do the faith based magic tweak technical explanations start? They don't, but you're covered by a 30 day money back return policy so hey...it doesn't matter.

elizabeth ...

When does the book burning start? 

Frank

OK, who’s the wise guy that spiked Lizzie’s punch? 🥊 

Hello Elizabeth,

     Have you been reading The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy trilogy?
 If not, I think you'd enjoy it.  Excellent stuff.
   I was wondering why all the cuttlefish in my neighborhood have been acting so cocky but your confession explains everything.

Thank you,
   Tim

I'll tell you a short story about my experience at Audiogon and leave it at that. I lurked here for several years but signed up in around 2005 because I had a question about transitioning from Crosby Quads to horns. Fred Crowder was kind enough to respond- he had made the same transition and I got other helpful responses. Since then, I've learned and also shared knowledge where i can. 
Perhaps it's a change in the tenor of the place or my personal take on the threads, but there seems to be a signal/noise problem. I can ignore threads of no interest and disregard posts that don't add to my knowledge. 
But, to me, the value of the forum is sharing knowledge and experience in a constructive way. That doesn't mean no criticism or disagreement- to the contrary, that's where learning happens. But having lived through the early Internet wars over content removal, ISP responsibility and Net behavior, perhaps I'm just played out on the site.  
my regards,
Bill Hart

Herding audiophiles. 

So secret and clandestine are same half of the time, but do not have to be all the time. Unless the sense of being illicit is deceiving at times when they are the same again, if secret is not illicit at that moment. Huh, cable threads are simpler.

clearthink,

(to cleeds)

"...do you prefer that I reveal to the world what it is I know about you?!?"

Please do. If you continue to insult her/him for a reason the rest of us cannot figure out, insult him like a man. Tell us all the hidden and clandestine secrets and be done with it. It is tiring to read your insults to cleeds. Tell it as it is and move on.

I think anyone should be able to post on Audiogon.  Although I believe disagreements are fine, personal attacks are not.  Also, if the person posting gets any financial gain from a product either under discussion or a competing product, it should be known from their post.  

I believe that most individuals in the audio business have significantly more experience than I do listening to a wide variety of equipment and therefore I enjoy reading their prospective.

Remember, many posts are not about scientific measurements only. They are about individual opinions.  All individual opinions have some bias associated with whether the person works in the audio business or not.

Why would anyone want to restrict free speech, knowing that their opinions could be the next opinions that are banned?

Isn't "clandestine" and "secret" same thing?

If ya can’t figure out who the manufacturers are I ain’t gonna tell ya.

gregmWasn’t there a rule that non-hobbyists (manufacturers & dealers) had to disclose their profession on each post?

A thorough, careful, and complete review of this cite's terms of use indicates no such need, necessity, or requirement and neither is such a disclosure useful, necessary, or advantageous as others in  this thread have stated it is simple to sort out the "wheat from the chaff" in this little group and cleeds participating, posting, and contributing to this thread is typical of his efforts to disrupt the conversation for his own hidden, clandestine, secret purposes.

Wasn’t there a rule that non-hobbyists (manufacturers & dealers) had to disclose their profession on each post?

cleeds why don't you come out from behind you're keyboard and reveal your interest, associations, and alliances within the audio community that lead you to these nonsensical, meaningless, illogical positions, arguments, and beliefs or do you prefer that I reveal to the world what it is I know about you?!?

mikexxyz

I do have a little heart burn from those masquerading as hobbyist but clearly have a financial position or association.

Simple fix. Identify those with commercial affiliation.

How could A-gon possibly enforce this? How would moderators identify those with commercial affiliations?

“Fishy” is an understatement. These shill posts are way past fishy! They’re simply deceptive. I can’t be any clearer.

The best product would never sell without marketing. I`d like to have more manufacturers writing and responding on audio forums. It takes a huge courage to doing that in a shark tank like audiogon. IF something is fishy, there are lots of experts here for pick it apart. That`s my two cents.

cleeds,

It’s good to know where you stand. I reiterate that these thinly-disguised, manufacturer ads should be culled from the forum and they should either have to pay for the ad or have them deleted. Fortunately, they are easy to spot. Check out the Tekton "review" on tonight's forum.

And in case anyone missed it, still a Vandersteen fan boy

my review out soon on Six Half Moons, I bought the samples, no debate allowed on this thread....

I am somewhere in the middle
full disclosure about conflicts good
virtue signaling word salad...,???????

one thing I have noticed is many of what I would classify as obnoxious dealer shills rarely frequent the music section, wonder why ?

and I frequent some fishing boards with complete idiots... insisting they remain armed when the Coast Guard boards them at sea...

I guess that will be the next stupid frontier - open carry at CES or ????

Why is it so difficult to ask people who own or work for an audio business to simply identify themselves at the top of their post? If I see that, and decide to continue reading, that’s my business. There is really no need to flame or censor someone in the business, as long as he/she self-identifies. 

I have no problem with vendors posting on the site as long as they identify themselves as such.  I’ve read interesting and insightful advice by audio industry people.

I do have a little heart burn from those masquerading as hobbyist but clearly have a financial position or association. 

Simple fix.  Identify those with commercial affiliation.  

cleeds, Good point. Beneath contempt is just plain weak writing. Should have said contemptible. Thanks for the tip!

If a product isn’t marketed something horrible happens. Nothing. - PT Barnum 🤗

Sales people are sales people, anything to push a product. It's a cut throat world that sales, always has been.

Respect the NATURAL SELECTION RULE and let the stronger(here I mean good hifi gears) grows and don’t courage ppl being PC ! I think most of us can distinguish a real end user experience from a subliminal marketing.

Don't you guys have anything better to do than talking about the obvious ?

The culture of a chat board is measured by its members, not the moderators. 

+1 Cleeds on all your posts. Reasonable. Thanks

millercarbon

I don’t mind dealers or anyone else posting whatever they want.

Within reason, agreed! Post away!

What I mind is sanctimonious virtue-signaling word-salad, that when anyone calls them out on it they find it easier to complain and have the post removed than defend their weasel words. That sort of behavior is shameful, and petty, and beneath contempt.

If it’s "beneath contempt," then why the contempt? This just sounds unnecessarily dramatic. After all, A-gon is just an audio forum. It’s supposed to be fun to be here, no?

But it still shouldn’t be censored ... It should be pitied, and pilloried, open to the ridicule it so richly deserves.

Pilloried? Open to ridicule? I don’t think that’s consistent with this forum’s Terms of Use. Please note that one of the reasons for moderators to reject a post is, "Abusive towards another member."

Showing a little courtesy towards others would really help this group - especially towards those with whom we disagree.

I don't mind dealers or anyone else posting whatever they want. What I mind is sanctimonious virtue-signaling word-salad, that when anyone calls them out on it they find it easier to complain and have the post removed than defend their weasel words. That sort of behavior is shameful, and petty, and beneath contempt.

But it still shouldn't be censored, any more than the people who call them out on it should be censored. It should be pitied, and pilloried, open to the ridicule it so richly deserves.

I think we've had more than enough authoritarianism already. Especially when instead of protecting the community it protects the weasel. Enough, already. Free and open exchange of ideas. Let the chips fall where they may.

    My general rule is not to join any club or blog that would accept me as a member.  Somebody needs to be responsible for keeping the riff-raff out, right?
     Audiogon's been my lone exception for many years now and I'm just constantly amazed that I haven't yet been permanently booted off this highbrow and esteemed audio forum with extreme prejudice.  
     I mean, I've been kicked out of a lot worse clubs, blogs and forums than this one for a lot less: The Ferocious Flatulence Fraternity for using a Bic lighter and burning down the clubhouse, The Mean Boy Club for complimenting another member on his merciless callousness, The Fight Club for insufficient kidney punches and nutcrackers, The Women Haters Club for 'unenthusiastic misogyny' and The Satire Club for excessive irony.
 I love you all for tolerating me,
    Tim
  XOX

viridian

... you are mis characterizing my original post when you say, “ That seems a more practical solution than banning all "manufacturers, distributors, retailers and importers," which is what the OP and apparently @whart seek.”

That is not what I said, I said that it may be time to ban them ...

I quoted you accurately, and said it is apparently what you seek. Now you say that isn’t what you said. So what exactly are you proposing?
You also stated:

If they can’t get their act together they should take it on the road.

So what is it that you seek? That they should be allowed to post here, but that their content should comply with your preferences? If all you seek is a discussion, then what's your objection?

We know that you can use the “alert moderator” feature. You have used it on my posts many times.

That’s not true at all, and it’s quite ironic coming from someone who claims I’m "mischaracterizing" them!

AGREE with Viridian's post

whart

au contraire- I said it should be monetized and badged, rather than wholesale censorship.

I’m sorry for the misunderstanding. I was relying on this comment of yours:

I’m only one voice and expressed my view, which coincides with the OP.

Thanks for clarifying this.

@cleeds - au contraire- I said it should be monetized and badged, rather than wholesale censorship. 

tonykay

What irks me are the unsolicited product reviews ... I’m suspicious. I’m sure I’m not the only one who sees through these fake reviews ...

If it’s so easy to identify these posts that you find objectionable, why not simply just ignore them? That seems a more practical solution than banning all "manufacturers, distributors, retailers and importers," which is what the OP and apparently @whart seek.

I agree with much of what has been said above. What irks me are the unsolicited product reviews citing design philosophy, product dimensions, price and even finishing options, purporting to be just helpful info for members. I’m happy to hear arguments to the contrary but, to me, these seem to be simply manufacturer shills. They are usually supported by lots of fanboys who feel compelled to share their thoughts, despite being new members having made only two or three past postings. Yes, I’m suspicious. I’m sure I’m not the only one who sees through these fake reviews.

I don't view it as protection for anyone but myself- to avoid the noise. My alternative has been simply to avoid some threads altogether. I'm not sure it is a question of free speech since that isn't directly applicable (so far) to private internet fora, no matter how "public" (though there are some fascinating legal and policy issues that I will not go into to avoid censure for violating the terms of use here).
I think the issue is whether the forums are an appropriate place to "sell" and in more extreme cases, disparage other brands of equipment when there is an obvious commercial agenda. I had recommended that this be monetized and badged rather than simply censoring manufacturer or dealer postings in wholesale fashion.  
Like @elizabeth said, most of us, I think, can sort the wheat from the chaff. The question (to me) is the tenor or culture of the board. 
As I probably mentioned at some point, I was a sort of consigliere to one exotic car board some years ago and it was a constant headache. There is no easy answer, but part of it, in my estimation, relies on the culture of the board as established by the forum owners, which in turn, results in a form of self-moderation. People who frequent a forum then know what is within bounds and what isn't. Self-moderation, once rules are clearly established and enforced, is in my view a far better alternative for everyone, including those who have the thankless task of moderating, and makes the board a more enjoyable place. 
I'm only one voice and expressed my view, which coincides with the OP. Others may have different views. I think that was the point- and I would hope, as long as we keep this discussion civil, the moderators will not see the need to delete it.

elizabeth

I am of the opinion that no one needs to be 'saved' from whatever.

I agree, but this is a common problem. Someone identifies a group that they decide needs "protection," and they then appoint themselves as the "protector" of the group that doesn't recognize or even necessarily want the "protection." Meanwhile, the self-proclaimed "protector" claims the moral high ground.

viridian

Manufacturers now post into the forums dogmatically espousing their myopic view of the hobby, shamelessly pimping their own products and view of the audio world and, even more disturbingly, running down opposing brands.

You should alert the moderators to any post you find objectionable. From what I can see, it looks like manufacturers are observing the forum’s rules.

IMHO, it may be time to throw the baby out with the bath water and ban manufacturers, distributors, retailers and importers. If they can’t get their act together they should take it on the road.

So because you don’t care for the contributions of these contributors, you think they should be ejected from the group? I don’t think this forum should work that way.

I don't care for the vendors that do the things you mentioned, but I'm sure there are some that appreciate their posts. 

Some people know how to use social media to build their reputation as experts or thought leaders, and some manage to tear down their reputation by misusing social media.  IMHO the posters you described are doing themselves more harm than good and aren't savvy enough to see that.

As long as this place doesn't become a complete spamfest, I don't think they should be banned or restricted as long as they're offering some educational content that may be of value to some members.  

I find the tactics you mentioned offensive and would not do business with anyone that conducts themselves in that way.  Others may see it differently.  

I find that audio is probably the most petty and brutal forum type on the net. In the top 5 or maybe the top three.

Almost as if notable percentages of the the adherents don’t know how to participate if they can’t express wanton negativity.

The illustration of that, in clarity and in repetition so you know it is tru(er), is that... when a political thread appears in the off topic section... they are far more civilized and calm than the audio discussions.