Macintosch 8950 or parasound a21

McIntosh.

@roxy54 

+1

OP, I think McIntosh will tame the highs. I have not heard MAC with your speakers, but I did hear a 352, and it sounded beautiful on a pair of SonusFabers!

Parasound is always pretty neutral. McIntosh MIGHT be neutral but I’ve also heard it be bright and harsh from the mid-treble upwards.  My experience with Mc has been so negative I don't really pay attention to model numbers anymore.

My strong suggestion is to listen for yourself because this effect is rather obvious and/or you may decide it is just right for you.

Having said all of that, a well treated room may be a much more effective and better solution for you overall than amp rolling right now.

MACs are shy in the high frequency / detail, so in this application would be a much better match. They are not neutral but bass / midrange heavy. A good match for the OP.

I think the parasound combo will be close to MAC  8950 integrated in price .I heard the macs sound good with the klipsch but haven’t heard them in person.Andrew Robison on YouTube gave the Mac 7200 a glowing review if that has any weight.I feel the klipsch sound a lot more open and live verses the Tekton DI  although the Tekton  sound good and the bass is more deep just looking for a good match for klipsch at this point I think and something I can use with some 1.7 Maggie’s at some point in future. I do need to improve the room for sure ,but will be limited to what I can do .I would like to add curtains to the wall of windows but I have forces working against me LOL

You need to slow down and explore the equipment you have and try to optimize it. 

I’m a dealer - McIntosh, Parasound and Klipsch, Sonus Faber, etc.

I personally owned Forte III for about a year and during most of that period I drove them with a MA252. I honestly never loved the combo. It was nice to have a little EQ for the Forte III and that’s one place where the MA352 has more to offer. Not to mention the added power. But I find the overall presentation of the 252 and 352 to lean a little dry and less tube-like. Good with Sonus Faber, less so, IMO, with Klipsch.

Of note, while the Forte III was rated in the mid-to-high 90’s as far as efficiency, I found it to be a little misleading. Continue to read and you’ll find that I drove them with a McIntosh MC462 before I sold them and the difference in grip and speed was palpable. I’d really wonder if part of your issue with the Single-Ended, 300B 508IA may be that the Forte just wants more power.

Eventually my Forte IIIs were replaced by JBL L100 Classics (I’m after a little vintage flare for this system) and shortly after that I went to (and still have) a Hegel H390 driving the JBLs. Before I sold the Fortes, I hooked them up in my main system which at the time was a McIntosh C53 and MC462. I heard what I think Klipsch intended for these speakers to be with the big amp. The MA8950 bears resemblance to the C53/MC462 and with a lot of power compared to the Line Magnetic. For this reason, and because you may find the 5-band EQ helpful, this could be a compelling pairing.

I don’t know Tekton well though I have read good things, especially for the money. If what I’ve read is accurate, they’re efficient, fast and dynamic and may tilt a bit forward. In the past, I’ve found nimble, energetic speakers to be a good fit with McIntosh.

It’s been a while since I’ve heard Maggies but my guess is that either Mac or Parasound would be a good fit there. Quite a stark contrast from the Forte or the Tekton, which I’m guessing is what peaked your interest. There’s a tweaky audio geek in me that wonders if you’d fall back in love with the Line Magnetic driving the Maggies. That is, as long as you’re not looking to rattle the walls...

Of note, the DA2 DAC module is the 8950 is pretty outstanding for what it is, but you’re paying for it. I’m not sure you’ll need it, having the Aurender though. And there’s the rest of the equation which is, the 8950 is a feature-laden integrated amp while the A21 isn’t.

Ultimately, both are good lines from good companies. McIntosh is legendary, has more prestige and great resale value. Parasound still works like a small business with an eye decidedly on value. They’re both great to work with.

As you’ll notice, everyone has their own experiences and opinions, and they can vary pretty widely. Bottom line is, you’ll only know what works for you once you’ve experienced it.

russ69

3,203 posts

02-27-2023 at 09:11pm 

You need to slow down and explore the equipment you have and try to optimize it. 
 

Wow seriously!,, I ask if anyone has an opinion on a few amps,or heard any of these amp and speaker combos and I get stop running around the pool and slow down.Is this first grade? I have not bought a piece of gear in 4 years….if that’s all you have to offer please refrain from posting

Thanks DJmika

For taking the time to share your experiences .The information was very helpful and makes since.I was wondering the same thing about  the Klipsch and the line magnetic if more power would give that extra I was looking for.You mentioned the MA8950 bears resemblance to the C53/MC462 ..did it still seem dry and lean on top? I would eventually like to try a pair of the 1.7s out ,I know it’s a completely different animal …I heard  a pair of Maggie’s 3.6   back in the 90s hooked up to large amp and remember being  struck at how clear and life like the music sounded.I thought they had a great midrange and a lot of air on top and boy did they compress the room.I was thinking the line magnetic wouldn’t be enough power for the Maggie’s?

For Maggies I would go with the Parasound 21. May need the additional power. The new version is the 21+.  I take it the LM508 has preamp outputs for the 21. I would use the LM 505 for the other speakers.

@bobster50 

There is a pretty significant difference between the MA8950 which is a transformer coupled (Autoformer) design versus the MA252 and 352 which are direct coupled. The vast majority of tube amps are transformer coupled due to the fact that high output impedance necessitates it. However, Solid state amplifiers don't suffer the same challenge and rarely employ output transformers. To my knowledge, McIntosh is the only company currently producing them. The advantage to having an output transformer is that the design can be optimize for one consistent, predictable impedance. The different taps represent longer windings, but all speakers (taps) will see the amp's potential output, not just lower impedance options. There are downsides - a large transformer (lots of copper) in the signal path, weight, and especially cost. McIntosh produces Autoformer in house and they're good at it.

While I will stop way-short of saying that transformer coupled solid state amplifiers are inherently better than direct coupled designs, McIntosh has honed the craft which is why all of their top solid-state models employ it. And since many people love tube amps and part of what you're hearing is the quality of the output transformer, it stands to reason that Autoformer amps may share a bit in common sonically with their tube counterparts.

To my ear, recent Autoformer McIntosh amps share the quality of being somewhat smooth sounding. My MC462 has a mild bottom-up presentation, it's dead-quiet and it's utterly smooth across the entire frequency spectrum. 

So, long story short - The MA8950 doesn't possess the mildly dryish qualities I've heard from the MA252 and 352. It sounds more like the 462 to me and I think most who have listened to enough Mac gear would probably agree. 

As for tubes on "harder-to-drive speakers," there is a consensus that they can't do it, but I've been surprised in the past. The Forte III, IMO, wants current. The little Maggie 1.7, while lower in sensitivity and impedance, is different. I once drove a pair of Martin Logan Aerius i with a Canary 300B amp and was surprised by how well it worked. I also had a dealer near me who made a career of driving Maggies with tube amps. He was quite "eclectic" but also brilliant. People in the industry were hard on him, in part because he was different. But I heard a few of his systems personally and I think that if others had, they may have struck a different tone. 

OP- you might give some credence to the advice of @erik_squires and also @russ69. Both have lots of cred. They are offering you excellent advice based on decades of experience. 

You admitted the problem is probably the room.

Get the room and setup right, then play around with gear swaps.

Thanks again DJmika for the helpful information that I was looking for.

@bobster50 

To be fair to others, the room is pretty much half of what you hear. I've been in business for 20 years and in the industry for more than 30. I heard very nice gear sound bad and modest gear sound good, all depending on the room. It can be hard to "fix" a living space with treatment without impacting a room's aesthetic though. We deal with the balance between form and function in the Custom Integration business every day.

NAD is including Dirac Live in their top-of-the-line Master Series. Anthem has ARC in the STR line and Martin Logan leverages ARC in their top Hybrid ESLs. Even McIntosh has the MEN220 which borrows Lyngdorf RoomPerfect from Steinway Lyngdorf. All are high-end solutions designed to address issues with listening spaces through DSP. 

You may be dealing with a few challenges here. Room, synergy and tastes. I don't see a problem experimenting with any and all. But buying a MA8950 is an expensive "experiment" and that may be the underlying message from some of the commenters here. 

No worries! I appreciate  your help .I wasn’t  ready to run out and buy anything I was just asking opinions.I think I am going to stop here not liking the vibe from some of sound engineers that feel need to chime in on advise that was not asked for ,not even knowing what my rooms looks like.

I had the A21 power amp driving my revel salon1 speakers and it was beautiful. I took a peek under the hood and couldn’t believe how luxurious it looked for the price! That said, with the salons the a21 added some audible upper bass thickness that wasn’t obvious until I started bringing other amps home to compare. I haven’t had a chance to hear the A21+ so can’t say if the new one is the same? I took a long time to get around to McIntosh because it’s not easy to get a deal on them. They have tube, solid state and hybrid components and I expect whatever you pick will affect the sound.  I am happy with the quality and sound 
 

@bobster50 

I don't think you should let it discourage you. This is just how the world seem to be these days...  It's hard to get a read on someone's tone on here but there also seem to be folks who will say something from behind a keyboard that they may not say to you in person. I spend almost no time on Social Media for this reason but I figured I would start posting on here more. I like to help people where I can. And yes, if you leave, you'll avoid the bad apples, but also the good ones!

@bobster50 

Room treatments/problems are overrated! Let me share an interesting AGon story:

I posted on the forum for some help powering my KEF Reference 1 Metas regarding no bass output. I was utilizing the legendary Luxman 590AXII 30W Class A. The overwhelming response was that my room was the problem. The Luxman should have no problem powering the baby KEFs. I greatly appreciated the forum's help and support, but I knew that the advice didn't seem right. I brought the amp to a local dealer and A/B against higher power amps. Magically, the bass appeared!

Short story long, I ended up going off the rails and purchased a pair of McIntosh MC611s. & C2700. My bass output in the same room is easily 300% better. 

Lastly, you mentioned the "sound engineers" on the forum. I guarantee you that if you took measurements of their rooms before and after treatment, the rooms probably had better measurement results pre-treatment. It only sounds better because they justify the cost of some obscure piece of pillow foam changing the dynamics!😁 The best and most significant improvement would be to add a nice carpet and drapes if necessary. 

@jeffreyw

Shots fired! 🤣

There’s a lot to room treatment but I basically agree. It’s hard to effectively treat a bad room and also have it continue to look like a living space. Strategic absorption and diffusion can be effective but problems with bass are another story.

Also, I love that you pulled the trigger on the Mac rig! My system is similar but opposite - I stuck the larger amount of cash into the pre; C12000 and MC462. Are you still using stock tubes in the C2700? If so... I’m currently using Northern Electric 12AX7s and Mullard NOS CV4024 / 12AT7s in the line stage. I tried a bunch of 12AX7s and for my money, the Northern Electric wins out. Of note, they’re taller than any other 12AX7 I’ve used, and I have to leave the "hatch" off the tube compartment. The tubes run lukewarm at best, so I’m not overly concerned. If you don’t want to get "adventurous, I found the New Sensor Mullards and Genelex Gold Lions work well too, maybe lacking a touch of the liquid-smoothness and magic of the Norther Electric.

Also, nice to hear you got the Ref 1 Metas to sing. I’m also a KEF dealer and have heard good things. Unfortunately, I tried to bring in a pair for demo and they were backordered until forever.

Micah

@bobster50,

Just a thought maybe a McIntosh MC275

Mike

@djmika 

No offense intended, Micha!! I didn't want the OP to go down a rabbit hole only to find that synergy was the culprit. With my system, I have not considered tube rolling. I also considered your route with MC462 and C12000, but I couldn't get past the two huge blue meters of monoblocks. Also, this is my first set of monoblocks, and I am amazed by the channel separation. In the future, I would certainly consider the C12000. It must sound amazing.

@jeffreyw 

No offense taken! Wasn't aimed my direction anyway! 🤣

I had 601s while we had an active showroom. There is something to be said for those big meters. I firmly believe there is more to great sound than just what you hear. The ownership experience includes the enjoyment of the visual element as well! 

The C12000 is really good. I haven't spent extended time with the C2700 so I can't really compare the two. But it's meaningfully better than the C2500. If you every want to chat about my experiences with it, don't hesitate to drop me a line. Until then, enjoy!

Micah

Hmm I have heard the Klispch Cornwall IV (La Scalia too) on the 7200 and 8900 and neither impressed me. The combination seemed a little dull. After about an hour demo on the Cornwall IV I need a full day break from music, my ears were that tired. I demoed them at 90+ DB but I often do that with my own rig. Lower end Mac would be pass for me. 
 

now before you call me a hater I own a McIntosh MC462 which is my favorite amp to date. I also own a pair of Klipsch 8000f which I used for surrounds. I thought they played pretty well on the MC462 when I was breaking them in. The bass on the 8000f is not very textured other than that they sound ok to me for the $1000 I paid. 
 

 I don’t think the lesser model macs  will clean up your sound. The truth in the Heritage family of speakers is just fatiguing at high volumes imo.  

Thanks for your opinion James,I have a dealer close  that sells Mac and klipsch but He doesn’t have any of the smaller integrated amps to listen to.I keep hearing good things about the  mc 462 also heard some of the pass amps and integrated amps sound good with the Klipsch . The klipsch Forte 3 s can sometimes feel a little edgy on top to me at times on certain tracks.I hear the forte 4s are a little smoother but haven’t heard them.I think klipsch actually sells an upgrade kit to turn the forte 3s into 4s