Lyra Kleos Repair

I have not read through entire thread yet. Kleos is my third Lyra; best yet! My understanding is that Lyra does not rebuild ; Lyra gives you the best trade in and sends you a NEW Kleos.I have surfed this thread. My answer is: Take Care around expensive anything! Especially expensive cartridges !!! Lyra Sound is Lyra Sound!

A cantilever repair is a few hundred bucks. The other few hundred/ thousand are going to the Dealer, the Importer who want new profit for an already bought cartridge. They invest a lot of time and money for that, they have to rewrite the adress and need some new stamps.
Lyra itself has the minimum but there are "rules" ...

mdp,
You had an accident and hoped that Lyra would show some appreciation for a customer and help out by cutting you a bit of a break.  They didn't and you are a bit upset.  Unlike "Mr. Mature" who says you should be a big boy, I think the cheap deal you were offered is offensive.

And to the poster above thanks for the heads up on Needledoctor.

Hi mdp,

You broke it.  Why is it a rip off if the repair is $1000 less that price of a new one?  That makes NO SENSE to get upset wth Lyra.

Again, you broke it!

Get over it and be a big boy.

If I spent 3k+ on a cartridge,  I would want the manufacturer of the cartridge to do the work, you will essentially get a new cartridge back. 

So just to keep everyone posted on my saga with my 2 cartridges and Andy Kim's butcher job. He kept saying there is nothing wrong with the cartridges so I sent 2 pics of it hooked up to the meter. One shows 7 ohms as it should and the other shows zero. He now says he doesn't trust me that I'm hiding something!!!!  In the pics you can see the leads are hooked to the meter!  Just like jpjones said earlier in the thread, the guy has zero class and will take no responsibility for his actions. 

I can only speculate as I am neither Lyra or the honorable Mr. Carr.

Analogluvr, you and I may never come to see this the same, but I don't feel anyone is being "ripped off" here. If SoundSmith or anyone else is so good, why do my ears keep picking Lyra instead??? And again, what the hell is wrong with someone setting a price based on what they wish to charge for a particular product or service? If you don't a find it a value, don't buy it! That is your  prerogative (and their's). But IMHO it is inappropriate to publicly tirade someone as a rip off.

mdb, I can't say, as I do not know that J. Carr keeps tabs per say, to field issues in this forum, yet I know (and if you explore) he has been very open and helpful here. As the article pointed out, Lyra does not"retip"(replace a stylus in the cantilever. And even if they did, as I understand it, by the very nature of the assembly, it would be a whole rebuild anyway to get the bent cantilever out,  straighten it if possible or just replace it, and reassemble and tune the whole assembly. But again, I don't know this for sure. I think where most folks here are making a big mistake is that they just don't have any concept of how complicated it is to do things right and right is what makes the  subtle differences between one cart product and another. It is not just a name, it is truly a physical thing, that produces a definitive sonic signature.

Mdb, you might try messenging J. Carr directly through A'gon (here, as I think that is still possible).

Again, wish you the best

r f sayles,  I just read the link from J. Carr.   Why hasn't he chimed in here to offer some guidance?   My cantilever is bent, not broken, and the stylus is fine.   I would have been happy to send it to them for a look and some adjusting.   It still played through both channels, but was very distorted.   Maybe that was all that was needed.  But instead, Audioquest wanted $2,775.  And I explained the situation the same to them as I just did here. 

Yes I have read his comments. What do you expect him to say?  He has to support his companies ripoff policy. To answer a far earlier question, in my case what I was quoted equals the core trade in value. I believe the op will find his quote to be the same. Another reason for this is the fact that audioquest is probably taking a cut as well. Whereas in a sound smith scenario there is no middleman. 
Also as I have mentioned earlier in the thread, why the difference in pricing between my delos and the op's kleos?  It is essentially the same job but one costs 1200$ more??!!  Basically they are ripping you for every penny they feel they can. 

Have you read J. Carr's comments?
http://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/andy-kim-needle-clinic/post?postid=702459#702459

What about van den hul?  Any experiences?

Looks like SS is the only game in town for retips or rebuilds.  Except of course the manufacturer.  Too bad Andy's work seems to be not up to snuff at this point!

Sorry.  I won my PayPal dispute against him, but it was only for what I had to pay to get my cartridges back, not the $1K in destroyed property he subsequently kept.  I can send you endless email chains of him trying to get me to pay for work I explicitly forbid from the beginning, how I don't know anything because I think the boron pipe cantilever he shattered (x2) is far superior to his replacements, etc. 

This is is the fourth time people have reported him doing different work than agreed or doing unauthorized work. The first three were private correspondence to me after I published the issues I had.  

I'd run. 

So just an update for everyone, I got my 2 cartridges back from Andy Kim at the needle clinic.  He wasn't cheaper, it was actually more expensive than Soundsmith.  He quoted me $500 USD for the Delos and $400 for the Benz for what I thought was going to be just a stylus on the Delos and a cantilever and stylus on the Benz.  I went with it anyway because of the quick turnaround.  Well I should have been more patient and gone with Soundsmith.  Firstly it looks like the Delos had a cantilever and stylus put on contrary to my instructions.  Second, one channel is not working at all now.  Thirdly, the Benz is now out of phase.  Fourthly after messing with the Benz for about 2 hours trying to get the phase right and listening, it looks like the suspension is collapsing.  I'm pretty upset to say the least.  
Andy's initial response was "it must be a problem with my system" with regards to the Delos and nothing with regards to the Benz. Then he suggested I measure the Delos with on ohmeter.  I thought I read somewhere that if you do that you can fry the coils?  Now he is saying for me to send them back and IF there is something wrong he will fix it and refund my shipping.  Trouble is I've lost all faith in the guy, what if he broke the Delos beyond repair?  I'm leaning toward trying to recoup my money and sending to Soundsmith.
What are you guys thinking would be the best route?  Heads up I have a very busy weekend so may not be to quick to respond.

Mdb, it's too bad we couldn't have J. Carr weigh in here with a proper explanation as he has been very forthright and most revealing in the past on A'gon about many things analogue and Lyra.

As I understand it, when replacing a cantilever, you wind up completely rebuilding and tuning the suspension in place, unlike "retipping" which which is merely refitting a stone. The only thing saved is the base housing and the rare earth magnets, though still of value, most of the value lies in the craftsmanship and time. A highly practiced and skilled builder, under a microscope, must rewind the moving coil (thinner than a human hair), and solder in, precisely and tune the whole assembly in place. You wind up getting a new cantilever/stylus (which in a Lyra is custom cut and polished as I understand it, not off the shelf like many, many high end carts), suspension former, hand wound coil, and the dust close out sheet. All this must be tweeked to perfection by a craftsman who understands the results, not a trainee from Walmart or a backyard mechanic. It is a tedious, precision task. 

So I think it is unfair to color this as some have, and underrate what you get for what you pay. Some have brought up the point that there are others that will make a functional facsimile of a MC cart for a hell of a lot less. This will always be the case. I would argue, if it sounded like a Lyra, but it doesn't, than buy it. (Caveat: there are a lot of nice sounding carts in the world, pick your flavor) A customer must decide for themselves what makes sense, and what satisfies their needs. I can't speak for someone's ears or decide with their wallet, but I certainly can with mine. This is a hobby or pastime of discriminating taste, and nuance, and for me, Lyra has proven a level of excellence that is rare these days, rare has a price. 

(If you can’t afford Lamborghini maintenance, perhaps, having one in the garage, and worse yet, one on the road, is a bad idea. Not being happy with the repair bill is only human. Taking it to a fiat dealer is sheer madness.)

IMHO Fiat would make the Lamborghini more reliable

Thanks, I appreciate your advice.

mdp, I think the reason for the "one" price is that Lyra, Ortofon, Benz and many others are really not repairing your cartridge's single obvious problem.  They are going to provide you with all new parts installed in your chassis (so to speak).  It is really the only way they can be sure to  provide the original Lyra sound.  Basically, you are buying a new cart.  Now we are back to our differences with those that say it is the only "correct" option.  if you want that 100% guarantee of perfect original sound then you should probably spend the money Lyra charges.  If you are willing to risk a much smaller sum, then having someone repair the cart will give you a shot at returning the cart to similar but maybe not exactly the original sound.  How much that matters to you is something only you can decide!  I personally would have Peter at SoundSmith repair the thing with a similar material cantilever and a stylus with as similar shape as the original and try it.  If unhappy, (no one seems to be by all the glowing reports).  Send it back to Lyra or resell it as is and purchase something a little less dear.  

To answer your question above,it was the Atlas and all it needed was a retip.Came back sounding as it was when new.Peter claims it's an easier fix to do both if the cantilever is out of wack.but mine was ok.Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

This is one reason I will never buy a used (slightly used..only 2 hours on it) cartridge.  A Soundsmith (et al) rebuild is not a Lyra rebuild.  The above Subaru story is excellent to know.  That's the proper way to treat a customer.  (Ayre, Vandersteen, VPI, are in the same league.)

Thanks.  I'm still trying to decide on all the options.

The thing I question is, why is there only one fee for repair?  They haven't even seen the cartridge to determine what needs to be done.  If all it need is a new cantilever, why charge me for the whole cartridge?

You guys are missing the point...the specially trained 'pixie' has to work on the cartridge and only he ( maybe a she..??, but I highly doubt it) can do this intricate and complex work. The whole reason that Lyra's are so costly ( to some) is because of the fact that Mr. Miyagi and his specially trained 'pixie' are the only ones with the skill set to do the work....or so we are lead to believe! This does NOT come cheaply guys, LOL.

analogluvr, you are mistaken. Lyra did not quote 2700 USD for a "retip". They have quoted for a "rebuild". I know this explanation will offer little to end the negative tiered though. 

I'm not rich, I get so sick of the rip offs in this hobby!!  It seems like almost everyone thinks about how much money they can suck out of you. 

That's exactly what I expected!  2700$ for a retip is sheer madness. They can bs all they want about all the other inspecting they are going to do but it is not worth quarter of that. Also why is the cost for his kleos almost double the cost of my delos. The job would be pretty much the same. They quoted my delos at 1600 USD which was more than I paid for it new. I paid 1800CAD. I will not buy another Lyra which is unfortunate because I like the sound. 
Look at vandenhul. He rebuilds his for around $300 if I'm not mistaken. How can there be such a difference?

^ Soundsmith states clearly that they will rebuild/refurbish any of their carts for 20% of the new cost.  Seems that there is at least one high end manufacturer that doesn't follow along.  
Ortofon rebuilds theirs for less than 50% of the new cost for the Cadenza line.  So there is another that is not totally bending the customer over a barrel.
  
Lyra is technically doing nothing wrong (the credit default swap fiasco was also a case of not doing something "wrong") but I don't like those business practices and choose to disagree with them and will probably vote with my dollars when it comes time to spend my money.  

When my Subaru WRX engine ate a bunch of valves at 120,00 miles, they could have said tough but instead they bent over backwards to offer either to buy back the car at a reasonable price, or give me top dollar on a trade in and give me a very sweet deal on a replacement while loaning me a car free of charge for over 2 months.  I remain a customer of Subaru.  

I have heard some fantastic SoundSmith carts and will probably lean that way with any new purchase.  Especially with the repair he did for me free of charge!

^^ Odd that you'd consider a touch of "smoothness" from a retip as compared to a stylus with thousands of hours on it as,  "It could be a reduced sense of detail and micro-dynamics, and really be a lose of acoustic space or it could just be a refocusing/rebalancing and could be most pleasing"  Perhaps it sounds new?  You are welcome over and listen for yourself.

Dear wntrmute2:  """  the way Lyra is treating this customer, I will choose to vote with my dollars and spend them elsewhere.  """

the subject here between your opinion and the r_f_sayles that as I posted is the same as mine is not about price but way deeper than that.

Now, if instead of Lyra the cartridge is a top of the line Dynavector, Clearaudio, Koetsu, Benz Micro and the like all these manufacturers gives you the same price range to rebuild their cartridges.
Lyra is not given a bad treatment to this customer or any of its customers it's just that's siemple that way, always with any cartridge manufacturer with cartridges of these kind of models.

Regards and enjoy thye music,
R.

A smoothing can be deceiving. It could be a reduced sense of detail and micro-dynamics, and really be a lose of acoustic space or it could just be a refocusing/rebalancing and could be most pleasing. So subjective, so hard to say. 

Let's not create additional confusion here. Just to be clear, a "retip" = a stylus change, and although often not apples to apples, much less of a character changer and possible performance changer than a "rebuild"= different stylus, cantilever, suspension former, and hand wound coil. The later being what our dear friend mdb is looking at funding. 

With a Lyra made/ Linn branded cart, my understanding is Lyra will not give me the trade value Linn will toward same. Oh, well. 

I do agree with you Dave that we all have to draw the line on cost at some point. I'm not so sure I feel Lyra is mistreating anyone here though. If they had implied or expressed some kind of warranty against user mishap and then fallen short of that, I could understand some resentment, but given the circumstances (as much as it pains us) I have none and would not withhold future investment because of it. 

I can, however, compare two identical carts.  Not $3,000 ones but 1,000-1,200 dollar ones and to my poor ears it is impossible to hear a difference.  Maybe the retipped one sounds slightly smoother when compared to the one that has over 2000 hours on it but I would expect that wouldn't you?  Otherwise why retip/rebuild?
Based on the way Lyra is treating this customer, I will choose to vote with my dollars and spend them elsewhere.  If I remember,  you were a little disappointed when they wouldn't give you a credit on a trade in.  
 You and many others have far better ears than I.   I respect that so will defer to your expertice.  
Good luck as well to the OP.

Dave, we’ve been down this road... We disagree my friend. I have no issue with someone making whatever choice they wish to choose about what is their property. Yet the simple fact remains that no one, has the replacement parts, nor the knowledge base, possibly even skill level, to replace and rebuild that cart as it originally was. So what you wind up with is a "bastard" at a discount price. We can argue until the sun goes down but until someone can compare an original Lyra, side by side with a "bastard" rebuild and say they are the same, they are not. Now the question becomes, what will one wind up with??? Hard to say. I truly feel for mdb or any of us facing a due bill like the one from Lyra. But the difference between me and you as well is I absolutely refuse to villainize Lyra in this situation, as they did nothing wrong. The fact that their products are expensive is a relative one. IMHO they offer exceptional performance and value and yes, they are bloody expensive! And from my experiences with Lyra I am convinced that I get what I have paid for. My last two have lasted nearly nine years a piece, with a roughly 30% trade value. Everyone has to make choices based on their own economy and sense of value, I just wish to express in this regard that although many folks (including yourself) have chosen to go the SoundSmith route, it needs to be understood that you get what you pay for, and the sonic character of your cart will not necessarily have any resemblance to the original cart that was sent in for rebuilding, nor will there be any guarantee that it’s life expectancy will be that of the original product. I wish mdb the very best in whatever path he may choose and I hope he has a splendid listening experience.

A lot of people report good experiences with him, and in the grand scheme of things I don't think the typical retip is all that difficult.  I'm just saying when things go wrong with him, they go very wrong. 

Hum,  not my experience at all nor a close friend.  

On another note.  I believe SoundSmith will retip or rebuild any of his cartridges for no more than 30% of the purchase price.  You might sell your Kleos for a few hundred bucks and combine that with what you'd spend on repairs and buy something better supported by the manufacturer.  Just my 2 cents.

analogluvr
02-01-2016 3:08am
I have a Lyra Delos that needed rebuild so I contacted audioquest. The price for rebuild was more than I paid for it new. Total ripoff. I sent to Andy at the needle clinic but have not got it back yet.

Best of luck.  Andy destroyed two of mine without a care in the world, and won't even send the broken bits back as I refuse to pay a made-up "inspection"  charge that he tacked on later because I refused to pay for unauthorized work. 

Retired = retipped

wntrmute2, I agree!

Rob and I disagree on this.  While I agree that sending it to Lyra is optimum, people have cars repaired by other than the dealer all the time.  I for instance rebuilt quite a few Masaratti engines for the machine shop I worked at.  As a matter of fact we rebuilt many BMW engines for the dealers themselves.  Not that that has any bearing on the issue at hand really.  If the OP can't or doesn't want to spend that kind of money a REASONABLE but not option is available.   I don't think the OP is asking for work gratis but reasonable customer service to insure loyalty would not be out of line.  I for one will not consider a Lyra after this.  How much business will Lyra lose from a few postings like this on on other forums?
BTW, I have a Blackbird with original stylus and one retired by Andy.  Anyone is welcome to come by and see if they can hear a difference. 
As it stands now, that Lyra is next to worthless.

If I blow up the engine, should I have to buy a new car ???????

I’m just curious if anyone in the industry commonly rebuilds a low to mid output moving coil motor and (presumably) replaces a boron cantilever, in this price range for "cost or good will" because if they do, I’m certainly not aware of it.

(If you can’t afford Lamborghini maintenance, perhaps, having one in the garage, and worse yet, one on the road, is a bad idea. Not being happy with the repair bill is only human. Taking it to a fiat dealer is sheer madness.)

Oh boy!  at that price I might just take a chance on a rebuild by Andy or Peter.  The cantilever may be able to be repaired BTW.  I had a Blackbird with a decidedly off kilter cantilever and Peter at Soundsmith repaired it for the $16.00 in shipping cost!  If you don't like the sound, just snap the cantilever off and send it to Lyra.
I just bought a Ortolan Jubilee and checked the price of a rebuild through Ortofon and it was a bit more than $1,000.  Whew, glad I went with them over the Lyra I was eyeing.  
Lyra is too full of themselves these days it seems.  Not an ounce of customer loyalty.  I have a friend with a Lyra built but not Lyra named cart and I think they offered him no support what so ever.

I wasn’t aware that the Lyra carts had gone up so much in price. Last time I checked the Kleos was like $2895.00.

$2775 is A LOT for that, I agree.

I've had 8-9 carts redone by Peter at SoundSmith and a couple done by Andy at The Needle Clinic.

http://www.sound-smith.com/services/cartridge-rebuilding-retipping

http://www.phonocartridgeretipping.com/

These were all carts that the manufacturers were no longer around, so I didn’t have another option. All of the ones I had redone by either guy came back as good is not better than the original.

But, as mentioned above, it will not be a true Lyra if Lyra doesn’t rebuild it. That’s not to say it won’t come back just as good.

The one I sent to Lyra was out of warranty, (the suspension had collapsed), but they fixed it for free and even cleaned and polished the tip and sent all new mounting hardware with it.

$2775 versus around $300, I don’t know...

I don't expect them to lose money for something I broke, it was totally my fault.  But to expect me to pay almost as much as a new cartridge for a repair job is a little hard to swallow.

I'm very sorry to hear that mdb. So, does anyone know, is $1k better than the core trade value?

mdp, thanks for posting that...I'm now far less interested in a Lyra, LOL.

I was just quoted $2,775.00 for a rebuild, which I find insulting to say the least.   That's $1,000 off retail for a new one.  

Wow!   To say I'm disappointed would be an understatement.

I'm waiting to hear back from Audioquest/Lyra before I do anything.

Sending a Lyra to ANYONE but J. Carr/Yoshinori Mishima @ Lyra is a fools errand.

Please pardon me, but these are precision, handcrafted, devices that serviced by ANYONE else, will simply not return to you, what you initially, so dearly paid for. You will not have the same sonic performance.

I’m soon to purchase my forth and fifth (mono & stereo) Lyra.

i would wish you good luck, but I don’t believe in luck. I do wish you well.

analogluvr - How can you claim that "Andy at the needle clinic" is a better deal when you haven't received your cartridge back yet?  How do you know it will perform as good as the original?

A great company. You get about 300€ discount for a new Kleos, when the "old" is fault. One big point for EMT.

Analogluvr,

Is Andy the guy in Seattle that rebuilds cartridges at a fair price?