Looking for really fine cables at really low price
I have been listening to excellent sounding Exemplar exception cables for the last several weeks. While my HFCables are better they are also much more expensive than the below $500 cables.
They offer an excellent sound stage, dynamics, and top to bottom quality sound. Not only are they inexpensive but they are very portable and easy to install.
Grannyring, My WE 16ga maintained smoothness throughout the break-in, yet kept getting better with time in regard to detail and imaging. They are especially a good match with the Belden 8402. With this combo in my system I get the superb imaging and detail, with as you describe, smoothness, absolutely no glare or electronic signature. Very relaxed, but dynamic with great tone, texture, scale and other positive attributes mentioned in the Day Blog. They are relaxed, but capture it all top to bottom in an extremely engaging, pleasing way.
I should also mention the wire is no longer too tame or mellow. It is very dynamic and resolved after break-in. As alive and resolved as my past set of expensive and nice pure silver cables.
I have some on the way from tajacobs and look forward to hearing the comparison with cables I have around here. Have any of you conditioned them on an Auidodharma Cable Cooker? I am thinking I will maybe cook them for about 5 days before putting them in my system.
On Jeff Days's blog site it shows his cables being "cooked" on a device as part of his break in process. I, myself, enjoy the many and varied twists and turns a cable takes. Just when I think it's reached it's potential, I always love it when I'm 'disappointed' by yet another level of improvement. :-)
My Supras are nothing short of amazing and I truly hope all of you enjoy the same level of satisfaction with your WE 16ga cables.
On another note, I read a review of Triode Wire Labs power cords and the maker, Peter Grzybowski, uses wire designed by Western Electirc decades ago for use in theater amp applications including 300B amps and Westrex recording equipment. It seems Western Electric was on to something and companies like Supra did their due diligence in designing their line.
Mitch2, Jeff Day cooked his cables on the Audioharma Cable Cooker. Day thought eight (8) hours was enough, more not necessary, he explains on his blog which you should read. Grannyring links above. Best, Rob
Nonoise, Thanks for the info on Triode Wire Labs power cable. I suspect you are absolutely right, both Supra and TWL did their homework and their internal wire could possibly be the old WE stuff of various gage. I am planning to make a bunch of changes to my various systems (3 currently). Since hearing the Bekden 8402 and Western Electric stranded tinned copper I'm extremely Jazzed and inspired. So much so, that I'm going to change my internal wiring on my Coincident Dynamo/speakers in my office system. Going to be a busy summer, fall. Over time I will likely change most of my power cords to Triode Wire Labs.
If I was going to start a cable company I would locate all the NOS Western Electric stranded tin copper wire I could find worldwide of various gage and build speaker cables, power cords with it. I suspect places like Sweden, other places have tons of this wire warehoused.
Mikirob, Looks like you have lots to look forward to. Luckily, my Clearwave Duet 6 monitors are already internally wired with Supra tinned, stranded copper wire so there is some kind of continuity in place now doing it's magic. From the amp to the crossovers, and on to the speaker drivers, the wire is all the same. I couldn't ask for more as the wire's contribution to the voicing is about constant as it can be. That might have a lot to do with it.
Whether it's the 'absolute truth', I wouldn't dare say but it's the best I've heard in my room. Like I've already stated, everything is so open, clean, clear, relaxed and yet dynamic and extended with not a hint of glare or harshness. It's still digital in nature but not like what I'm used to hearing. To say it's more like analogue would be a reach, but not a great reach as it tends to the smoothness of analogue but retains the better qualities of digital.
I have more wire here I am going to try a double run on each leg to compare to one. Simple to do and I am now quite familiar with the sound of just one run.
This wire does become quite a bit more lively in the top end after 50 hours or so of burn in. I actually liked the initial more mellow highs better. They are still quite good however. Wonder if more gauge on the bass will help give more bottom end to match the mids and highs livlyness. No doubt more hours have changed the wire in the upper mids and highs.
I think in combo with the Belden 8402, in my system, the initial more mellow highs that you heard remain a constant. If I switch in the Silnote Reference (silver/gold/copper) also a excellent interconnect, it does become a bit more lively, but not better. The Belden/WE combo gets it all with an extended top end, but with a more natural flow and manner. Your descriptor, "relaxed" is apropos. I'm very interested in your experiment to try a double run.
Granny, I liked your thought to try a simple twisted pair but wanted more wire than 16 awg so I decided to also try some of the larger 14 awg that Teresa (tajacobs) is selling. The individual strand size is the same as with the smaller 16 awg wire. Theoretically, the quad run of 16 awg should perform better due to the star quad geometry I plan to use, the smaller individual wire gauge (e.g., 16 vs. 14 awg should have less skin effect, if you believe in that at audio frequencies) and the larger aggregate size (13 vs. 14 awg) but the differences are small so, you never know.
Hi Grannyring, with speaker cables and power cords, low inductance and low resistance are considered good. Heavier gauge wire reduces resistance and effective geometry can reduce inductance. A star-quad geometry is considered to lower inductance compared to a twisted pair and may also offer benefits by reducing the amount of stray magnetic field pickup.
I first heard about star-quad geometry from Jon Risch and Chris VenHaus (before he started VH Audio) over on Audio Asylum years ago. The geometry consists of twisting four wires together in an even twist that is tight enough to maintain shape when bent in normal use, but not so tight as to over-stress the conductors. The "star" part comes when you cross-connect the wires. In other words, connect one pair of wires that are opposite (not next to) each other for the positive polarity and the other opposite pair for the negative side. Chris VenHaus uses this geometry for his well-regarded Flavor 4 DIY power cable as illustrated by his star-quad DIY bulk power cable.
I believe braiding can have a similar effect in lowering inductance and is successfully used by Kimber, HomeGrown Audio, and most spectacularly by Jena Labs. Back in the early days of these websites, many folks successfully braided CAT 5 cable to make speaker cables. The multiple small gauge solid core braided wires is a theme used by Chris VenHaus in his well-regarded Chela cable and by HomeGrown Audio in their top-of-the-line X-32 silver speaker cables. I believe Jena's wire is stranded, as is Kimber's. Unfortunately, I have little experience with braiding cables.
I have a straight run from speakers to amp - no braiding or twisting and it sounds pretty damn good. Will I realize an additional benefit twisting the + and - around each other from speaker to amp?
It's questionable, to me. My Supras run parallel to each other with nary a twist and with barely any separation between them but then, they were designed that way.
I realize it's a completely different make of cable but it's similar in concept so maybe it's not necessary.
I now have two runs per pole of the WE wire. I twisted them and put a nice black Tech Flex netting over them. I found one run to sound very good. With burn in however they were a little, just a little , too tilted up in the highs after 50 hours or so. My system is very resolving however so any small change is quickly revealed.
I found two runs provided more base weight and improved overall body and tonal balance. I will report back after the second set has burned in for 50 hours. Thus far a nice improvement in my system vs. just one run of the WE wire.
Grannyring - I bi-wire with the WE 16ga and have experienced a similar change in the sound - perhaps not to the degree you have. I did a loose twist every few inches or so.
Did you twist to achieve the doubling of the wires, and then twist both of the doubled bundles?
07-09-15: Metman I have a straight run from speakers to amp - no braiding or twisting and it sounds pretty damn good. Will I realize an additional benefit twisting the + and - around each other from speaker to amp?
The main effect of twisting + and - together will be to reduce inductance. (Also, as Mitch2 noted above, there might be some reduction in sensitivity to stray magnetic fields, although his reference was to a star quad configuration which takes that a step further. The consequences of magnetic field/RFI-EMI sensitivity, if any, will be dependent on the design of the particular amplifier, as well as on the characteristics of whatever stray fields may be present in the particular setup). Reducing inductance will reduce the impedance of the cable in the upper treble region (and above). The likelihood of that being audibly significant will depend on the impedance of your speakers in the upper treble region (the lower that impedance, the greater the likelihood of a difference), and on the length of the cable (the longer the cable, the greater the likelihood of a difference, since cable inductance is proportional to length, everything else being equal).
The impedance of many dynamic (box-type) speakers rises significantly in the upper treble region, which reduces the criticality of inductance, although many other such speakers have impedances which remain relatively flat in that region. The impedance of most electrostatic speakers decreases to low values in the upper treble region, which increases the criticality of inductance.
Further complicating the issue, of course, is that in many systems and for many listeners cable behavior that is non-neutral may be subjectively preferable. Meaning in this case a softening of the upper treble that may result from inductance being higher rather than lower.
The bottom line, as is often the case in audio: It all depends :-)
Maxima95, that is exactly what I did. The improvement is slight and huge. I do like it better however with two runs. Very direct sounding wire and quite lively.
Experimenting is fun since all systems are different and even sound different to different ears (too much difference?). I just had to crow about my Supras (since they are part of this thread) and how they continually break in and please me to no end.
Intentionally, I didn't listen to all of my favorites and decided to wait until I'd achieve somewhat complete break in. One CD is the soundtrack to 'Game of Thrones'. Period sound with period instruments (or made to sound like). Delicious on the micro level and stupendous on the macro.
I've never heard tympani pound and resonate like this before (and this is a favorite of mine). The inflections by the musicians on the quieter end of the spectrum come through (not so) loud and clear. It's that ability to sift and sort out the delicacies and nuances, timing and tempo, which furthers the enjoyment.
Again, there is no digital bombast of etch and harshness. The only thing different are my ICs (which have more than enough hours to be considered broken in) and these Supra cables. These Supras seem to have opened up that "bottleneck" and released a torrent of musical information but not at the expense of anything natural, anything of ease. Pacing and timing seem almost analogue.
I just hope that you who are experiencing the WE 16ga wires are 'hearing' what I'm hearing.
I tried to wait until I had more hours on the cables before commenting too elaborate now have between 50-100 hours on them. Overall I'm very happy with them but did experience a little brightness in the upper registers but that seemed to have passed and it really only occured on CDs that were a bit bright to begin with. There's a big improvement in all other phases and for the money there are just stupid good. For me what really makes this hobby enjoyable is finding something as inexpensive as these cables are and having them make as big a difference as they do
Metman, Are you using the WE/Belden in combo or something else for interconnect? I'm curious since there seems to be a real synergy between the two. In my system, never bright, really gorgeous tone, upper register of violins spot on, brass likewise.
Metman, Mikirob is spot on. You must get the Belden ICs in combo with the WE as they are magic together and any hint of that brightness is gone. I agree 100% with your comments on the WE16, but when the IC was added all was perfect.
You all peaked my interest with this stuff so I have purchased the wire but I will not be able to make the cables for a few weeks.
I plan to bi-wire by making a star-quad run of the WE 16awg (13 awg aggregate) to connect my MF/HF drivers and a star-quad run of the WE 14awg (11awg aggregate) to connect my LF drivers.
I also have the Belden 8402 coming to make balanced cables using either Vampire or Furutech connectors that I have here. I will probably connect the shield at the source end only and run a separate spiraled ground wire around the outside of the casing.
I will let you know what I hear when it is all done.
The Cable Company was advertising Shun Mook Power Cables using, what else, Western Electric wire for about $1,000-$1,500, comparing them to other $5,000 cables for sound quality.
John421, if you go with something like I have (Supra 3.4W speaker cables), make sure you give them a good 100 hours to break in. Mine were great at 20, even better at 50 and so much better at 100. This applies to all cables (IMHO).
I saw an ad here recently for a pair of Supra 3.4S with only 50 hours on them and if the seller only knew what was in store for him, he would have kept them and then decided if he wanted to keep them or not.
From what I gather here on this thread, it's the formulae of tinned copper stranded wire that works so well, regardless of whether it's NOS or some current brand. As long as it's high quality copper, it shouldn't matter. The technical differences will arise in strand count, gauge, and amp to speaker pairing (that's another whole can of worms). :-)
07-19-15: Tbg John421, all copper cables would be more conductive, especially if the ends are not soldered on.
It is true that the conductivity of tin is roughly about 6 or 7 times lower than the conductivity of copper. However, to provide a quantitative perspective on that difference in the context of the WE speaker wire, and assuming (as I suspect) that the layer of tin comprises just a small fraction of the cross-sectional area of each strand of the wire, consider that the difference in conductivity and hence resistance between that wire and a hypothetical similar wire made of all copper would be vastly overshadowed if the copper/tin combo were simply made one gauge size larger.
And in many cases the conductivity and resistance of a speaker cable of reasonable gauge won't matter anyway, especially if speaker impedance is not particularly low and cable length is not particularly long.
07-19-15: John421 Would todays tin/copper cables have the same affect as the Western Electric style cables?
Sorry, but I have no idea. And I doubt that anyone else can say with any kind of certainty, unless they have compared the WE with a variety of modern tin/copper cables, and with a variety of speakers and amplifiers.
Steakster - My experience with the speaker cables (I have not doubled them yet) and IC results in a "Yes" to both of your questions. Though these changes are noticeable, they are not significant and, IMO, did not alter the character of the 2 types of wires.
IMO, a more noticeable change for the 16 GA came when I went from copper/gold bananas (amp end only) to no connectors.
Re: the IC's, I am going to make a set with the shield connected at the source end only for a comparison.
The Belden wire starts off bright and within just 20 hours becomes natural sounding and quite nice to listen to. Don't let the initial brightness disturb you. It greatly concerned me at first, but quickly went away. The difference is pretty big on the Belden and far less so with the WE wire.
I've assembled IC's as well as speaker cables. I purchased some surplus 12 awg, 18 awg, and 20 awg which were modest monetary investments and which yielded great results. YMMV
64 ft of WE 16 gauge arrived last Wednesday. Love the smell of vintage components!! I made an 8ft bi wire set since my Audio Note AN-Es use bi wire configuration. Bare wire, not terminated per Grannyring's direction. They have been burning in for the last 5 days in my 2nd system in the back room. Will put them in today and see what's up - Jet.
Wow the Western Electric 16 gauge speaker cable sounds great! After two days of listening I hear tonality richness and depth at least equal to my Audio Note Lexus but the presentation is quite a bit more clean and direct. This is suprising to me that the cable can be so clean and direct sounding but still have such richness and depth. I was hearing a bit of hi frequency emphasis yesterday but not today. Grannyring, correct, I have enough of this cable to double up or do a single run bi wire. Meaning four 8 ft. runs to each speaker. Nice sounds for sure. It doesn't hurt that the transformer wire is in direct contact with the speaker cable. I only have 24 hours burn in on the Belden so I won't make any firm judgments yet, but a quick listen tonight was disappointing. Not even close to the Kondo interconnects so I'll leave them burning in for a few more days.
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