Looking for really fine cables at really low price

Grannyring,
Any further update on your digital DIY. Inquiring minds want to know...Rob

Regarding use of the Belden 8402 as a digital cable, keep in mind that its "characteristic impedance" is specified as 52 ohms, which will result in a considerable mismatch to the impedances of the digital components it would be used with. I would expect that to result in its sonic performance in digital applications varying considerably from system to system, and in some cases even among different lengths of the cable when connecting the same components.

In any event, glad to read of so many positive experiences with the Belden and WE cables. And it all reinforces the points several of us have made in past threads about the weak correlation that can be expected between cable performance and cable price.

Best regards,
-- Al

Al, help me with your last post. My current Sablon is 75 ohm and this sounds better thus far. 52 ohm vs 75? Not much difference and you seem to be saying it is a poor match!

Meant to say the Belden sounds better.....

Well, RCA connectors do not conform to the "strict" 75 ohm adherence that we read about as being so important in digital. We also read to never use twisted wire as a digital cable, but my Sablon is twisted wire, not coax, and it sounded far better then the true coax cables I had tried before.

I guess there are several camps of thought regarding digital cable builds and what is ideal. I let my ears tell me, but it is somewhat confusing that the math would suggest to not use twisted wire or 50 ohm, but the ears say otherwise? Help?

Hi Bill,

In the analog domain 52 ohms vs. 75 ohms is, as you appear to be saying, an insignificant difference. However when it comes to digital signals, the effects which come into play at the very high frequencies which are present to a significant degree in their risetimes and falltimes (those terms referring to the transition times of a digital signal between its two voltage states, which in the case of digital audio signals involve significant frequency components extending to tens and perhaps hundreds of MHz) 52 ohms vs. 75 ohms is a considerable mismatch. The reason being that at those frequencies "RF transmission line effects" come into play. Which result, in the case of a significant impedance mismatch, in signal reflections bouncing back and forth between the connected components, causing some degree of distortion of the waveform as received by the destination component.

Whether that waveform distortion will result in sound that is subjectively better, worse, or the same than if the impedance mismatch did not exist will depend on a great many complex and essentially unpredictable variables involving the technical characteristics of the signal, the cable, the length of the cable, both of the connected components, and (from a subjective standpoint, at least) the rest of the system.

My point is simply that such a mismatch can be expected to cause the sonic performance of the cable to be inconsistent and not very predictable among different systems, and very conceivably also among different cable lengths.

In any event, enjoy! Best regards,
-- Al

Well said Al and the explaination was perfect! I will compare the 52 ohm Belden to the 75 ohm Sablon once the Belden has more time on it.

I did notice a slight loss of detail initially and perhaps this is the reason. I had assumed it was due to lack of burn in, but we will see.

My initial thoughts on belden i/cs . Keep in mind they have about 20 hrs in my system I have no burner. When the first installed I found them completely different from other interconnects that I currently use such as Straight wire, Chord, JPS labs, Acrolink or Increcable. I is hare many of the findings of Jetrexpro in the bass and a bit bright using it between preamp and amplifier. Then I had found in the post that it is the gold rca that is recommended. I should have read Jeff blog , I have the nickle rca which is probably contributing to brightness. However I moved the belden to my cd to pre and my Acrolink from pre to amp and it is ABSOLUTELY THE BEST my system has ever sounded . I will probably wait to 100 hrs and then order the belden with gold rca,s and maybe some gold rca,s to replace the nickle on my current ic,s. Note The belden cables have improved with just 20 hrs and should continue with more time .

To add,tonality, dynamics, soundstaging, imaging, balance and above all musicality all have taken a leap foward. A realistic and natural presentation like I have not had before . My cd based system sounds like analog. Well recorded disc puts the performance in the room in a way that is making me smile and enjoy very much. Also I played some disc that normally sit idle due to not so great recording or transfer to digital, now have become enjoyable to listen and it sounds like music. For the price of this combination of cables I think it's an outstanding bargain. Looking forward to see how much better this becomes with full break in.

Grannyring when you said
"I now have two runs per pole of the WE wire. I twisted them and put a nice black Tech Flex netting over them."
Did you place 2 wires in 4 pieces of Tech Flex or 4 wire in 2 pieces of Techflex ?
Thanks

Sorry Richard as I just saw this after reading your Agon email. All 4 wires are in one Tech flex netting per side. I twisted two positive WE runs and then separately twisted two negative WE runs. I then twisted the double runs and placed in Tech Flex netting. The final twisting of the two double runs was not tight at all, but just enough to keep the entire cable together.

A perfect description.
Thank you Grannyring.

Well Al, Rob and others here is an update on the Belden as a digital cable. After 124 hours of burn in the Belden is very good. The Sablon and Belden are very, very close in my particular rig. I would say the Sablon has a tad more upper end air...just a tad. I would say the Belden is more natural and organic sounding with a larger stage. It seems to be a tad more natural sounding and inviting if you will. So yes the Belden makes a great digital cable after full burn in. It sounds muddy and a little closed in and dull at first. Give it time and you will be pleased. At $30 you you be very, very pleased.

My system is very revealing and my Raal tweeters seem to be a good match with the Belden cable. Your system may yield a different result. I like it a lot.

Some may like the Sablon better in my system as it really depends on your sonic preference. Both are very good for sure. I suppose in Aphile terms and on great recordings Sablon is the winner. There is just something about the Belden that works for me across a wider array of recordings.

Grannyring I made interconnects out of WE16ga speaker wire today. A quick listen sounds like we would all expect. Very natural tone. More in about a week :)

Great. I am very interested in this!

I am just curious what is the difference from the Western Electric 16 and 14 ga?

Jet, let me know your build recipe please. Did you shield etc....

Grannyring, I kept it simple for now. No shield and very small low mass RCA plugs that I have laying around. I cleaned with 99% alcohol both the plugs and the stripped WE wire before using flux to do the solder work.

The 16 is just proven, tested and recommended. The 14 may be fine, but it is new territory. The 16 is special as used in the above posts! I have it everywhere now. Inside speakers, crossovers, and all electronics.

I do have a friend that tried the solid core and then tried the stranded we are all talking about. He liked the solid core, but preferred the stranded. The stranded 16 is just proven, tested and works across a myriad of different systems.

I see why you are asking about the 14 gauge as it seems he is out of the 16 to purchase by the foot. I understand the stranded 14 is the very same wire and outer wrap.....just thicker gauge. Don't know if it will sound any different.

These are all supposed to be 30 awg tinned copper wires with the aggregate gauge determined by how many wires are bundled together. From what I can find in a quick search, I believe this is C11000, also known as Electrolytic Tough Pitch (ETP) copper wire, which is coated with tin and then a type of thermoplastic insulation/dieletric. The cotton is over the plastic so it is not really part of the dielectric like the cotton on Jupiter Condenser wire, which is directly over the copper wire. I believe the cotton on the WE wire is a covering for durability (and maybe to reduce static build-up?).

Here is a document that may address some of the construction characteristics but requires some speculation as to how the vintage wire was made;AIW Wire Construction Guide

From what I can find, I believe a major supplier of the Western Electric (WE) wire was American Insulated Wire Company (AIW) in Pawtucket, Rhode Island, U.S.A. Here is what the factory looks like today...AIW Factory

The 16 awg wire seems to be the most common size discussed in these posts for audio purposes, at least recently, but I found posts from several years ago where Benjamin Zwickel of Mojo Audio was constructing and selling power cables made with WE wire, and his clients were very impressed when his cords bested incumbents costing many times more. Ben found that the larger gauge wire sounded even better in his power cords, which is interesting but not surprising since virtually every major cable maker goes up in conductor size for their higher-priced speaker cables.

The pair of speaker cables I made use four 16awg wires and four 14awg wires to each speaker with the two sets of four wires twisted together and then cross-connected, which reduces inductance...a good thing in power cables and speaker cables. Therefore, I have the benefit of the 16awg wire (but double the size) going to my MF/HF drivers and the benefit of the much larger pair of 14awg wires going to my LF drivers (for an aggregate of 11awg to the LF of each speaker). In a week or two, I will post what I think of cables made from the 10awg wire since I have some of that on the way. I plan to run four wires per speaker to the LF (for an aggregate 7awg per pole) and only two each to the MF/HF for 10awg per pole.

I like the sound of these speaker cables, but it is different from my other cables that use many individually insulated OCC wires (also in a shotgun, bi-wire configuration) resulting in an aggregate 11 awg going to MF/HF and also to LF. In short, I find the sound of the WE speaker cables to be a little thick (some might say dense), focused on the midrange where they provide a nice tonality, but also good-sounding in the LF or bass, where they have good body but without the bloat some cables allow. In the high frequencies, I find them a touch shelved-down, and maybe even rolled-off, but primarily shelved-down, meaning the HF, while fully present, seems to have lower output compared to the lower frequencies. This sound recalls earlier days when our speakers had large drivers and our systems were musical but not so detailed. I believe that is the attraction...it is nice to be reminded that perfection is not a prerequisite for enjoyment.

Mitch

All this wire talk got me to test my Duelund 2.0 vs. standard 12 ga Linn wire.

The shelved down talk is about right.

The harmonic structure is MUCH better preserved with the Duelund. Which I always attributed to stranded copper chopping up the sound. Duelund solid silver does not.

But WE is stranded although only 25 strands (for 16ga)

Mitch2,
Thanks for the info.

I thought it would be useful to again post Jeff Day's "Listening Bias" as this is pretty much Yazaki-san's bias as well as mine and some "kindred spirits" here on Audiogon. I think this type of "listening" provides a more realistic, or closer to "real sound" as Yazaki-san likes to call it. Not the typical audiophile listening. One man's "thick" is another man's full, weighty, more real and lifelike sound. Definitely not thin like so many audiophile systems which always reminds me of a nasal human voice.

Timbral Listening ala Jeff Day:

Thought it might be handy for those following my writing at Positive Feedback Online to know what my listening biases are to aid you in interpreting and decoding my reviews. Just to alert you, my listening perspective is somewhat of a minority opinion in the Hi-Fi community of North America, but will be more familiar to those listeners in Turkey, Africa, and Japan, who tend to be more familiar with timbral ways of listening. My hierarchy of importance is aligned more closely to how well a Hi-Fi rig plays the musical content of recordings (I know, it’s a heretical concept), rather than how it ‘sounds’ in the more traditional audiophile ‘sonic’ sense.

As a result of my being drawn towards the musical content of recordings, I tend to be a bit more of a timbral listener than is typical for a lot of Westerners, meaning that the reproduction of the textures, colors, and tones & overtones in the music are really important to me. To this end I look for timbral realism at the band level (the band’s signature ‘sound’) and at the individual instrument level (the unique ‘voices’ of instruments). I want them to sound recognizably like themselves in tone and texture, so that their full tone color can develop, which I think helps lend a feeling of beauty and expressiveness to the music. I like the melody (the tune you ‘whistle while you work’), harmony (treble & bass accompaniments to the melody) and rhythm (the steady beat that determines the tempo) to have a life-like flow and connectedness in how the musicians interact—just like in real life. I want dynamics (variations in loudness) to evoke that which I hear in life for an emotional connection to the melody and rhythm. For loudness I like my music playback to be similar to live loudness levels, which for the kind of music I listen to the most, jazz, usually means 80 dB or louder. Finally, I want tempo portrayed so that both the mood and speed of the music are conveyed through it, just like it is with music in real life.

I consider the sonic performance of a Hi-Fi rig on the non-musical artifacts of the recording process to be of value, but of less importance to me than the performance on the musical content of recordings (as above). So things like transparency (being able to ‘see’ into the recording), soundstage (the three dimensions of the recorded space in width, height and depth), soundspace (the acoustic ‘space’ of the soundstage), and imaging (the feeling of solidity and localization of instruments & musicians on the soundstage) are important to me, but they are not my primary focus – the musical content is.

So I like my cake (the musical content of recordings) with a little frosting (the sonic artifacts of the recording process) for a balanced taste treat. Too much frosting and not enough cake puts me off. So that’s me, and you might be different, but at least now you know how.

Mitch2,
I believe the WE16ga, along with the Belden 8402 in combo with WE does all of the above and brings the listener closer to "real sound." It is natural, whole, organic, more like what one hear in the flesh. Best, Rob, YMMV.

Mikirob

The question is why?

I can not say for sure why my Duelund Silver 2.0 sounds good. I can speculate.

Stranded wire sounds all chopped up. The high freq suffers the least. So one might think stranded wire has more "air"

The harmonic structure is very well preserved in solid silver. (better than WE?)

No idea!

The question is why is WE wire so good? The tin? If so you have opened a can of worms? 25 strands? Much less strands than standard tiny stranded wire.

If less strands is better why not one solid? (copper or silver)

Volleyguy1
Do yourself a favor and go to Jeff Day Blog at jeffsplace.me and read his change in his Dueland Cast to the Western Electric 16ga to his Tannoy Westminster Royals...read the rest of his material WE wire his Macs, Garrard 301, and his other stuff. Extremely informative. In case you don't know Jeff formerly reviewed for 6 Moons and currently for Positive Feedback. Most important read all about Shirokazu Yazaki-san, the designer of the SS SPEC Real Sound amplifier reviewed in Positive Feedback by Jeff Day. Yazaki-San was gracious enough to turn all of us on to the WE 16ga speaker cable and Belden 8402 interconnect; Yazaki-San is a master 300B builder/designer with vast knowledge. He was kind to share his information and has made many folks happy by turning us on to these wires. Many of us have dumped multiple thousan dollar speaker cables and interconnect for the WE and Belden and are ecstatic that we did. Best, Rob

There is certainly something about this wire since so many like it. However, those of us with resolving systems mostly find that, when compared to other good wire, the WE wire doesn't offer the same level of resolution. This doesn't surprise me since we are comparing stranded, tinned, TPC to OCC, silver ribbon (in the case of Dueland) and other well-designed wire. I am surprised it is good enough to consider allowing it to remain in our systems. I have to admit, the midrange has very good timbre and depth and the bass is better than with my reference wire, because the WE provides full-bodied, powerful bass (like my reference) but with out the excessive bloom that can lead to boominess on some material.

I am not a cable fanatic, and the 1% difference in conductivity between TPC and OCC is not likely enough to be audible, but I am surprised how listenable this tinned and stranded wire with plastic dielectric sounds in my system. I suspect there is a combination of things going on and, in this case, maybe two wrongs end up making things sound right.

I am going to construct the Belden ICs, and then another set of speaker cables using the WE 10awg wire I am going to receive this week, and then I am going to go back to my original project and construct another set of speaker cables using Jupiter copper in cotton wire. I have one set of the Jupiter SCs that sound great but they were constructed for my NC1200 monos that I finally decided to sell, so I need a longer set for my stereo amp that I plan on keeping. I am glad I will be able to choose from several offerings that all sound good but none of which cost a ridiculous amount of money.

I know this is all about the WE 16ga wire but I've added to the conversation about the Supra Ply 3.4W speaker wire (which is also tinned stranded copper) and I'm experiencing nothing of the sort being described here as to the too dense midrange and rolled off or shelved highs.

What highs I do have are no longer piercing or etched and lack the air that I thought was natural but now feel is much more accurate. They are articulate and go on in the realm of decay and ambience but no longer shine and shimmer at the expense of body and weight.

As good as the WE 16ga wire is, maybe the Supra is better as it simply gets out of the way of the music and seems, to my ears, to leave no fingerprints.

All the best,
Nonoise

Nonoise,
All your descriptors of the Supra 3.4 apply to the WE16ga. The 16ga is NOT too dense midrange or rolled off and shelved highs. Not in my system, Grannyring, Jeff Day, Yazaki-san, and all the others that are wiping out the remaining WE16ga wire. You read, I believe, the Day blog, his readers' responses, The Decware blog respondents, and so forth. Mitch 2 is the second person making this type of comment out of multiple hundreds...I'm glad I got this wire, most folks like me have sold multiple thousand dollar speaker cables and interconnects for this musical WE16ga and Belden 8402 interconnect. What was brought to the table was inexpensive stuff that competes well or bests many of the high priced offerings. More than a few folks selling PS Audio, Sablon, their silver, and so on and do forth. As the cliche on Agon goes, YMMV. As a musician Resolution doesn't mean much to me in the context of "listener bias" as above. But the WE has excellent resolution, transparency, timbre, texture, tone color, and connection to the music in a natural organic way, including all the other audiophile virtues. Best, good listening, Rob

Another point to note, Mitch2, this is not an apple to apple comparison. If you have a too thick midrange perhaps it is because of the way you constructed the wiring? Most of us have followed the Yazaki-san, Jeff Day simplicity route...with bare wire all WE16ga, single run per pole. No mixing of various gage as you have done. Best, Rob

Mikirob

I have been reading Jeff's site on and off for a few years. Remember he went all Duelund crossover after I (and many others) did, went vintage amp after I was there. I had talked to Duelund on this thread about them making autoformers which I suspected could be a weak link. I do not yet have ( I wish Autoformer!) so when Jeff later got a Duelund made Autoformer he of course really had my attention! Then the Silver CAST caps as well.

So yes I consider his tastes will no doubt be similar. Jeff is even looking at a set of Klipschorns so then I will have direct comparison.

I am not at all questioning Jeff, you, Grannyring or Yazaki-san.

I am only asking why? on the WE?

I am sure the wire does sound great!

Plus what it means. Tin! People go to great cost for silver when tin coated wire will do?

This is a pretty big deal!

It's good to know that this can all be from using a double run version. It reminds me of the same effect that a shotgun set of Clear Day speaker cable had to the regular set.

All the best,
Nonoise

Mikirob, you may be right about the construction, although I doubt it because the wires I have connecting my mid and high frequencies are the WE 16 awg from tajacobs. Doubling the runs and cross-connecting lowers inductance but in my experience does not change the wire's intrinsic sonic characteristics.

That said, even though I do not find this WE wire to be perfect, I still like the sound of the wire very much and the fact it is going head-to-head with wire I have settled on after 20+ years of trying different wires means it is special indeed. Nothing in this hobby is perfect and every component, wire, speaker, etc. is going to have strengths and weaknesses, plus they are going to synergize differently with each other.

It is interesting that Ben Zwickel from Mojo Audio, who was very successful at making and selling power cords from NOS WE wire, had this to say about speaker cables made from the wire we are using, in a post from 2010;

"The WE speaker wire is about the same. I used it for years with full range speakers but it too is not wide bandwidth and tends to sound a bit cloudy with a rolled off top end.

It can be a good cure for "digititus."

I do not find it to be "cloudy" or to have an overly narrow bandwidth but I do find it to be midrange-focused with a touch of warmth/thickness/density that can be seductive compared to cables that display ultra high resolution and clarity through the midrange. At the high end, in a direct comparison, I hear clarity and extension from my multiple small gauge, solid core, individually insulated, OCC wires that I do not hear from the WE wire. However, the WE wire does sound natural in the high frequencies, but just a little less pure and sweet at the very high end. I do not hear specific limitations in the bass and, with my speakers and in my room, the WE wire actually improves on a bit of excessive bloom on certain recordings. Overall, at least so far, what I hear leans in the same direction of what Ben reported in 2010, but not as far off-center.

My system is as resolving as any. I still say to use 16 gauge period. I cannot confirm what some are hearing, but keeping it simple is best and proven. All other combinations are new and trial and error. The 16 gauge is as resolving as any cable in my system. In fact more so than many expensive silver and copper cables I have owned from Kimber, MG Audio, Sablon Audio etc...

System synergy is always important and may well be the difference in some systems.

I need to also say the WE wire is the opposite of rolled off and thick in my system....completely opposite. Too much wire may in fact lead to this phenomenon in a particular system. The 16 gauge wire is shockingly clean and real sounding delivering more resolution then my system has ever experienced.

I have had friends try all kinds of the WE wire and not follow the proven recipe. Solid core, thicker gauge, silk cover etc... When they finally tried the stranded 16, they stayed with it.

Rob and I post here to try and help others with this wonderful find. Yes, I get frustrated when folks try something else not proven. This is one time to not over think and just enjoy.

I am not saying don't experiment, but start off with the proven and then go for it!

The Belden cable is certainly more subdued in the highs compared to the extended WE. Some will certainly find the Belden a tad soft in the highs.

All, this is a fascinating discussion and most helpful to me.

I am beginning the process of building my living room system, which will be based on the Coincident dynamo and utilize Coincident Triumph Extreme II speakers. The room has a very lively acoustic, perhaps excessively so for the TEIIs.. I have promised my wife to respect her aesthetic preferences, which means the existing built in book cases will be used to house the electronics and also means the speaker wires will run into the crawl space and back up. This will require fairly long lengths. I got started on this too late to pick up a sufficient amount of 16 gauge stranded, but was able to obtain a 95 ft spool of the 14 gauge equivalent. Rob suggested the 14 g may in fact be preferred for long runs. If, in fact, Mitch's take on subdued high frequency response proves true in my case, that may actually be a good thing for me. I haven't ordered the Belden yet, and I may wait until after I get the speaker wires run and burned in to do so. If I find the presentation still to be a bit on the bright side, it may be that the belden will be just the ticket.

If I caught Volleyguy's point, this is not the first time I have seen an extended period of human effort intended to optimize something go badly adrift. What if, after years and years of research, the market has produced a group of products that are not up to the standards set by a bunch of low tech slide rule carrying cave men who are even older than me? Why can we still not, with all our smarts and technology, make vacuum tubes like they made 60 years ago? How did the entire industry plunge headlong into solid state gear? Anybody here think that the early solid state stuff sounded better than the old McIntosh and Marantz tube gear that was deemed outdated old school trash? Are there any of you who haven't spent time in a brick and mortar salon listening to uber expensive and highly reviewed stuff that didn't sound very good?

Yazaki-San, Jeff Day and Rob have forced us to do something harder than thinking outside of the box. They have forced us to think inside a box that has been buried in the attic for 50 years. Kudos!

Thank you Grannyring and Brownsfan,
For articulating this subject in such a precise, clear, well-organized manner; I need to echo your statements and also confirm that in my system the WE16ga is as resolving or more so than the many high $$$$ cables I have used. Like Grannyring stated, "the WE wire is the opposite of rolled off." The WE16ga presents the musical content in a natural organic manner, no glare, minimal recording artifacts.

Once more for the record, the true credit for bringing the WE and Belden 8402 to our attention is Shirokazu Yazaki-san an extraordinary designer of the SPEC Real Sound amplifier via Jeff Day Blog at jeffsplace.me.

Reading the Jeff Day Blog thoroughly was a revelation for me because I
finally understood while reading about Day's McIntosh MC30 and Garrard 301 restoration process what was missing all these years. As Yazaki-san stated, "Real Sound". I realized that Jeff Day's "Listening Bias," timbral listening was my listening bias, was Yazaki-san's listening bias, was likely Brownsfan's listening bias, was likely Grannyring's listening bias, Charles1Dad's listening bias and legions of other "kindred spirits" listening bias, which is more like real sound and how humans hear music. Our musical needs are not being met by the the Audio industry as a whole. We keep attempting with our $$$$ to satisfy a musical sweet tooth that is not being met.

So, for me it is "Back to the Future" combining the best of the vintage with the new. The sad part is that so much good stuff like the WE16ga is almost totally gone, hopefully there are hidden stocks out there somewhere. This is the best all-around speaker wire I have heard so far. Best, Rob

Rob,
I read all sorts of stuff from reviewers, modders, and designers I don't know. Some of it doesn't make sense, so I move on. Had I run across Day's blog on my own, I would have dismissed it without a second thought. You didn't. I can't and won't chase every wacko idea that shows up in the audio world, but I will listen to my golden-eared AG pals when they propose something counterintuitive. This episode teaches a lesson.

Volleyguy1,
I understand. It is a big deal. My belief is that the Audio industry has taken a number of paths, not always for the better to serve the music. Once in a while counterintuitive just works. When I go and put up for sale my Goertz 99.999 pure silver multi thousand dollar speaker cables for example, I know concretely now that a pair of stranded tinned copper cables actually beat them up top to bottom for about eighty (80) bucks, or whup-up on any Kimber speaker cable I have ever owned. I'm not knocking any of these other cables or company. They are good! To my ears and my listening bias the WE is better still; at a much lower cost. best, Rob

Thanks, Brownsfan,
I learned a long time ago that if film Reviewer A likes a movie I will likely hate it. If Reviewer B likes a movie, so too, likely will I. Same scenario in the audio world; and most everything can be taken with "a grain of salt" to use a hackneyed phrase. As you and most people here know nothing in this hobby is universally true. Every room, every ear is unique. Sometimes you make a leap of faith and hope for the best. In the case of the WE and Belden it is working out for most of us; and thank G-d it wasn't another multi-thousand dollar leap of faith.

One other note,
I too, like Brownsfan, truly thankful for the many Golden Ear Audiogon members who point us in a worthwhile direction that helps us enjoy the music. Where else can you find an Almarg who is so kind and generous with his knowledge and expertise, same for a number of Audio Industry professionals such as Atmasphere, who set aside their bias to sell product to give us an inside perspective and share knowledge for no financial gain. Same for some brick and mortar folks like John Rutan, or a reviewer like Tim Smith and the many others who remain unnamed but greatly appreciated. Best, Rob

Rob and Bill (Brownsfan),
I agree with you regarding the direction of current High End audio sensibilities. Something has gotten off track along the way, the prevalent idea of "neutrality and accuracy" is the goal. The use of these terms suggest a worthy destination and objective. One problem however is the resulting sound quality this has led to. I'm just not buying into it, I want natural or "Real" as Yazaki would describe it. If this puts me in the minority, then so be it.

This will lead to a different group of listeners seeking an alternative path for sonic and musical truthfulness. It's very satisfying to know that there are products available that fulfill this quest.
Charles,

On the Western Electric WE 16ga

I was reading the coating (on the wire) is proprietary and so is the Rubber coating?

Someone who did not care for it in the freq extremes said the midrange was AMAZING. (had to do caps as so did they)

It was designed for telephone use?

Trying to understand the science of why this wire is so good. (to many)

Charles, All,
Yes, current High End audio sensibilities went off the tracks a long time ago, especially for folks who are "Timbral Listeners"; and I firmly believe this is the way the vast majority of folks hear music. This notion of "neutrality and accuracy" as you mentioned above is a misnomer. Seriously, what is this notion of "neutrality?" Whatever it is the High End hasn't captured it yet; and can't capture it. A neutral sound doesn't exist. A violin exists. A violin isn't neutral. It sounds like a violin. What we can capture is a "Representation" of a violin that sounds like a violin. That representation requires all of the qualities in "Timbral Listening." Not some ridiculous, implausible notion of neutrality to mean not too much Yin or Yang? As in the story of the Thee Bears it's Just Right! No, to hear the violin, or any instrument "just right" requires all the attributes of timbral Listening as defined in Jeff Day, Yazaki-san, "Listening Bias." The current Audiophile terminology and value system is misguided. Ask yourself, spending more enjoying it less? What am I missing? Likely the emotion and intent of musicians is not coming through to you. To me, in all my reading of reviews "neutral" really was a code word for: cool, thin sounding, uber transparent, detailed, extended, usually lacking emotion or warmth, or other Timbral listening attributes of "real music." The High End concept of "accuracy" is another misnomer. Playback of recorded material is never accurate. Again, the best that the recording and playback industries can possibly do is give you, the listener, a fair "representation" of the recorded material; and they often do a bad job somewhere along the chain (weakest link anyone). A violin is a violin is a violin. Accurate is live, you are there. No recording artifacts. There is no glare, there is no too bright, it doesn't lack presence, it is always musical, it has emotion, you can feel the intent of the musicians, it is always in scale, the timbre is accurate, the tone is accurate, the harmonic overtone is accurate. Music without the full qualities of "Timbral Listening" is the opposite of accurate. Best, Rob

Vollyguy1,
I will not be able to explain the science to you, or anyone else; but to my way of thinking what matters is that somehow between science and fiat the universe of atoms conspired to arrange themselves in such a way via the WE16ga to deliver excellent musicality incorporating most all values that are significant and meaningful to me as a "Timbral Listener" in search of "Real Sound" from a playback system. I trust my own ears and environment. The WE 16g does it for me. YMMV. Best, Rob

I have some WE coming so I hope MMMV does not apply.

In following Jeff's suspect not. If he gets those Khorns we could end up exactly the same!

If you have some WE coming consider yourself lucky.

Jeff's friend Ron said, “Nobody is going to believe what we’re hearing from your Westminsters with this Western Electric internal wiring,” said Ron, “it’s hard to put into words how good it sounds.” Ron is the owner of the Klipschorns, which he internal wired with the WE.