Looking for really fine cables at really low price

Bill (Brownsfan), was the lack of sound in one channel on that first day caused by either a short or an open in the connections between the amplifier and that speaker? If so, it is very conceivable that the poor sound in the other channel resulted from effects of that short or open on the performance of the amp.

In the case of a short, for obvious reasons. In the case of an open, running a tube amp having an output transformer, such as the Dynamo, with no load on one channel could have resulted in large voltage spikes in the output stage of that channel due to "inductive kickback" from the transformer (Google "inductive kickback" for further info), those spikes conceivably having coupled to some extent into the amplifier's circuitry for the other channel.

Best regards,
-- Al

09-05-15: Mikirob
It is astounding to me that the about $15,000 Tara Labs speaker cable can be compared to the about $80 WE16ga speaker cable in the same breath, with the WE16ga comparing so close, so favorably, to most if not all the vaunted speaker wires; and perhaps the WE betters those vaunted wires in certain categories such as musicality, if not in overall performance. At any rate it is close, neck and neck.

Rob, for my thoughts on why a high degree of correlation between cable performance and cable price should not be expected, see my posts here and here, and in the links provided therein.

While the findings you and the others have reported about the WE and Belden cables are certainly a wonderful and valuable discovery, IMO they are not at all surprising.

Enjoy! Best regards,
-- Al

Thanks, guys. Regarding twisting the cable right-handed, I suspect that the person who was quoted was vaguely thinking of what is known as the "right-hand rule", which describes the relation between the direction of the magnetic field surrounding a conductor and the direction of the current flowing in the conductor which produces that field. But I agree with Salectric and Bill, and I don't see that as having any relevance to a twisted pair interconnect. And IMO proving otherwise would require, as a minimum, comparing two cables that are identical except for which hand was used to twist them, under equal conditions of system warmup, AC line voltage and noise conditions, and cable breakin. And preferably when connecting a variety of components. I doubt anyone has done that.

Regarding shielding, there are of course many variables that can affect its consequences, involving the designs of the components that are being connected as well as the characteristics of the cable. So I would second the comment by Charles in his most recent post, to the effect that listening in a given system is the only way to determine which is preferable. My instinctive guess, though, would be that more often than not a shielded cable will tend to provide results that are a bit more accurate (which is not to say that those results would necessarily be subjectively preferable).

Regarding the frequently claimed tendency of unshielded cables to sound more open, I think that is likely to often be the case. Which, however, may or may not mean that the cable is behaving in a more accurate manner. If the component driving the cable has a high output impedance, and especially if the length of the cable is also long, the reduction in cable capacitance that probably results from eliminating the shield may improve high frequency extension and thereby result in a more open (and accurate) sound. But in many cases increased pickup of RFI or other high frequency noise, or possible increases in ground loop-related high frequency noise (see the next paragraph, keeping in mind that ground loop issues can result in high frequency noise as well as low frequency hum), could create the subjective impression of a more open sound, while at the same time being less true to the signal source. I've seen it said a number of times over the years that low level high frequency noise can contribute to a subjective perception of increased ambience, which makes sense to me. Also, low level noise at frequencies that are too high to hear directly can conceivably have similar consequences, by intermodulating with signal in the component circuitry and thereby affecting audible frequencies.

Regarding Bill's mention of a hum that went away with his 845 amp when a shielded Belden cable was used, if the shield was connected at both ends, and assuming that an unbalanced connection was involved, my guess is that the hum had been caused by a ground loop issue between the amp and the component that was driving it. Depending on the designs of the specific components, ground loop susceptibility can be affected by the resistance of the return conductor in the cable which connects them. A shield can be expected to generally have a lower resistance than a wire of moderate gauge.

Regarding natural vs. artificial materials, it stands to reason that the characteristics of the insulating materials surrounding a conductor can affect the sonics of a cable in various ways. But I would be (very) hesitant to draw any general conclusions about natural vs. artificial without extensive and carefully controlled comparisons.

In any event, enjoy! Best regards,
-- Al

P.S: Regarding my comment about the hum in Bill's 845 amp, that went away with the Belden cable, I see in the 8402 datasheet that the resistance of the conductors is about 33.4 ohms/kilometer (corresponding to the stated 20 gauge wire), while the resistance of the shield is only about 9.8 ohms/km (which is equivalent to the resistance of a solid copper conductor that is between 14 and 15 gauge). Also, many interconnects have conductors that are narrower than 20 gauge. That all seems consistent with the explanation I speculated.

Best regards,
-- Al

Regarding use of the Belden 8402 as a digital cable, keep in mind that its "characteristic impedance" is specified as 52 ohms, which will result in a considerable mismatch to the impedances of the digital components it would be used with. I would expect that to result in its sonic performance in digital applications varying considerably from system to system, and in some cases even among different lengths of the cable when connecting the same components.

In any event, glad to read of so many positive experiences with the Belden and WE cables. And it all reinforces the points several of us have made in past threads about the weak correlation that can be expected between cable performance and cable price.

Best regards,
-- Al

07-09-15: Metman
I have a straight run from speakers to amp - no braiding or twisting and it sounds pretty damn good. Will I realize an additional benefit twisting the + and - around each other from speaker to amp?

The main effect of twisting + and - together will be to reduce inductance. (Also, as Mitch2 noted above, there might be some reduction in sensitivity to stray magnetic fields, although his reference was to a star quad configuration which takes that a step further. The consequences of magnetic field/RFI-EMI sensitivity, if any, will be dependent on the design of the particular amplifier, as well as on the characteristics of whatever stray fields may be present in the particular setup). Reducing inductance will reduce the impedance of the cable in the upper treble region (and above). The likelihood of that being audibly significant will depend on the impedance of your speakers in the upper treble region (the lower that impedance, the greater the likelihood of a difference), and on the length of the cable (the longer the cable, the greater the likelihood of a difference, since cable inductance is proportional to length, everything else being equal).

The impedance of many dynamic (box-type) speakers rises significantly in the upper treble region, which reduces the criticality of inductance, although many other such speakers have impedances which remain relatively flat in that region. The impedance of most electrostatic speakers decreases to low values in the upper treble region, which increases the criticality of inductance.

Further complicating the issue, of course, is that in many systems and for many listeners cable behavior that is non-neutral may be subjectively preferable. Meaning in this case a softening of the upper treble that may result from inductance being higher rather than lower.

The bottom line, as is often the case in audio: It all depends :-)

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al

07-19-15: Tbg
John421, all copper cables would be more conductive, especially if the ends are not soldered on.

It is true that the conductivity of tin is roughly about 6 or 7 times lower than the conductivity of copper. However, to provide a quantitative perspective on that difference in the context of the WE speaker wire, and assuming (as I suspect) that the layer of tin comprises just a small fraction of the cross-sectional area of each strand of the wire, consider that the difference in conductivity and hence resistance between that wire and a hypothetical similar wire made of all copper would be vastly overshadowed if the copper/tin combo were simply made one gauge size larger.

And in many cases the conductivity and resistance of a speaker cable of reasonable gauge won't matter anyway, especially if speaker impedance is not particularly low and cable length is not particularly long.

07-19-15: John421
Would todays tin/copper cables have the same affect as the Western Electric style cables?

Sorry, but I have no idea. And I doubt that anyone else can say with any kind of certainty, unless they have compared the WE with a variety of modern tin/copper cables, and with a variety of speakers and amplifiers.

Regards,
-- Al

Hi Bill,

In the analog domain 52 ohms vs. 75 ohms is, as you appear to be saying, an insignificant difference. However when it comes to digital signals, the effects which come into play at the very high frequencies which are present to a significant degree in their risetimes and falltimes (those terms referring to the transition times of a digital signal between its two voltage states, which in the case of digital audio signals involve significant frequency components extending to tens and perhaps hundreds of MHz) 52 ohms vs. 75 ohms is a considerable mismatch. The reason being that at those frequencies "RF transmission line effects" come into play. Which result, in the case of a significant impedance mismatch, in signal reflections bouncing back and forth between the connected components, causing some degree of distortion of the waveform as received by the destination component.

Whether that waveform distortion will result in sound that is subjectively better, worse, or the same than if the impedance mismatch did not exist will depend on a great many complex and essentially unpredictable variables involving the technical characteristics of the signal, the cable, the length of the cable, both of the connected components, and (from a subjective standpoint, at least) the rest of the system.

My point is simply that such a mismatch can be expected to cause the sonic performance of the cable to be inconsistent and not very predictable among different systems, and very conceivably also among different cable lengths.

In any event, enjoy! Best regards,
-- Al

signature8  12-07-2015 2:55pmI am trying to make balanced XLR interconnects with WE 16 gage wire. Do I really need a shield like the real XLR cables have, the one you can buy from Take Five Audio, or I can use regular wire as third wire (shield). What is the purpose of the shield, does it carry any audio signal or it is like a ground connection on a power cable. Let me know please. Thanks.

If both components are designed in an ideal manner the shield will not carry signal current.  However that will often not be the case, as it depends on whether the components connect pin 1 of their XLR connectors to their circuit ground or to their chassis, and on the impedance through which the components connect their circuit grounds and chassis to each other.

Also, whether the pin 1's of the XLR connectors at each end of the cable are interconnected via a shield or a plain wire will affect noise pickup, susceptibility to ground loop issues, and the capacitance of the cable.

In general, constructing the cable in the conventional manner (a twisted pair of conductors surrounded by a shield) figures to stand the greatest chance of being optimal.

Regards,
-- Al
 

P.S:  Also see the post by Mitch2 on page 11 of this thread, dated 9-15-2015, 7:15 p.m.

Regards,
-- Al