Just checked our mailbox and the switchcraft RCA plugs arrived. I'll build a 2nd set of WE16ga interconnects in the next few days and burn them this time for 300 hours...LOL! before trying in my 300b amp. I'll be able to compare them to the WE 16ga interconnects that I built almost three weeks ago with no name RCA plugs.
My instincts tell me to still build these as simply as possible - not using any shielding or twisting. This way I am hearing the cable sounding as natural as possible. I think I read somewhere the less stuff you put around wires, the more open they sound. Don't know if I'm right or wrong, but that's what I'm a gonna do! Jet |
Jet,
That theory regarding wire seems intrinsically right. What dielectric material are you using? Some believe that natural materials are better sounding than the synthetics, who knows?
Charles, |
Charles, that's the beauty of this Western electric cable. I am guessing that the insulation that it was produced with is contributing to the sound that we have all fallen in love with. So I am not covering it with any dielectric. My instinct is to leave it uncovered and as natural as possible. As long as I am not getting hum or any radio frequency interference I see no reason to insulate it. |
I did read the insulation is proprietary.
As is the coating on the wire. |
I struggled with wether to shield or not. Decided to build them like the great sounding Belden we all liked. Felt the internal WE wire would simply sound better and result in a cable with the Belden sound only better!
The other reason is my 845 amp had a buzz that went away the moment I hooked up the shielded Belden cable. I did not expect that and was was pleased with the dead quite drivers! That was enough for me to know shielding can make a difference and quiet down system noise.
If the cable stays in the dull sounding stage I will then remove the shield. I will give them more burn in time first. |
Some folks have written that shielding or any material other than natural fibers like cotton or silk will ruin the sound. A gentleman on the Day blog shared this same feeling stating the WE wire sounds so good because of the natural fibers used to make the wire....nothing artificial.
The problem is the WE wire does have a layer of rubber like material over the wire and just under the cloth. This layer is not made of natural fibers.
The Belden cable is not covered in natural fibers and sounds fantastic. I think the notion that copper braiding and unnatural wire coverings negatively impact the sound is speculation at best. Seems to me, like all things audio, it just depends on the build and many other factors. No universals here. |
With you Grannyring. We are all experimenting I know nothing about the science of building IC's and most IC's do have shielding so it is natural to do that. Without shield I may be introducing all sorts of crap into my system that I cant hear. |
My current cables are unshielded and are the best sounding I've ever had up to this point. Of course how much can I attribute to that one factor? It reasonable to believe other variables are involved. I agree with the idea that there are few If any universal answers when it comes to audio and sound quality. Even with modern science and engineering at its current high level, they "still" can't reliably predict the final sound quality. We are reliant on having to actually listen to any given product. Thus the experimentation occurring with these DIY cables and the various impressions (which are overwhelmingly positive).
Charles, |
A comment from Jeff Day Blog from European collegue Siedy Abee regarding WE16ga speaker wire and cables in general; at any rate something to think about:
"I promised you to write an article about the wonderful nice sounding SPEC amp at my home. Due to the hectic time at my work and private live did not found the right time to make a start with the article. On short terms I will do. I can tell that I will put some extra news in it. My friend Piet (www.audiotweaks.nl) has been recently been blown away by the Harbeth super hl5 plus!
I was hesitating a long time to write a bit about the wonderful and truly REAL sounding Western Electric WE16GA cables. I heard them at Piets place. Mr Yazaki-san did send him some meters.
A lot of people are wondering why this cable sounds so real and humanlike. Most people believes that the secret of the cables lies in the copper-tin inner wires. This is partly true. The real secret is hidden in the outer side of the cable! This is a cable that is NOT isolated by a chemical polluted isolation mantel. The materials they use is a type of cotton that is very friendly for the sound! This material does not destroy the sound. A lot of most common used isolation stuff is degrading the sound. Most people do think that the signal goes THROUGH the cable. This is partly true. Most of the signal goes his way OUTSIDE the cable. How more natural the used isolation material (cotton or silk) is (and NON chemical polluted) how better the cable can transport the real music.
My advice is not to isolate the cable with an outer shield. This wil have a negative influence on the sound! Be sure. If you cable is picking up some hum than you can better twist in more heavily. Please twist it right handed.
I looked at your interlink, Jeff. I saw that you used some plastic tape. Please, put this of your cable and have a listen! Or change it by tape made from cotton.
Please, check also if jou twisted the cable to the RIGHT hand site. If not than do so.
Perhaps some people are amazed about the way I explain why this cable sounds so nice. In the last year I learned a lot from my friend Jan Hut about materials who have a positive influence on the sound and in opposite way how materials (plastics, teflon) can destroy the sound. When I heard an interlink made with this approach I was positively blown away.
I would say Jeff, give it a try."
So, Abee recommends no shielding. |
I wonder what Almarg thinks? |
I wonder what "twisting the cable right-handed" means (per Siedy comment above). Wouldn't this change depending on which way you were looking at the cable? |
Salectric, I thought the very same thing.
Mikirob, that poster on Jeff's site missed the fact that the WE wire does indeed have a rubber like shield in addition to the natural fibers. The rubber like material is actually on the wire before the cloth.
We need you almarg! |
Thanks, guys. Regarding twisting the cable right-handed, I suspect that the person who was quoted was vaguely thinking of what is known as the "right-hand rule", which describes the relation between the direction of the magnetic field surrounding a conductor and the direction of the current flowing in the conductor which produces that field. But I agree with Salectric and Bill, and I don't see that as having any relevance to a twisted pair interconnect. And IMO proving otherwise would require, as a minimum, comparing two cables that are identical except for which hand was used to twist them, under equal conditions of system warmup, AC line voltage and noise conditions, and cable breakin. And preferably when connecting a variety of components. I doubt anyone has done that. Regarding shielding, there are of course many variables that can affect its consequences, involving the designs of the components that are being connected as well as the characteristics of the cable. So I would second the comment by Charles in his most recent post, to the effect that listening in a given system is the only way to determine which is preferable. My instinctive guess, though, would be that more often than not a shielded cable will tend to provide results that are a bit more accurate (which is not to say that those results would necessarily be subjectively preferable). Regarding the frequently claimed tendency of unshielded cables to sound more open, I think that is likely to often be the case. Which, however, may or may not mean that the cable is behaving in a more accurate manner. If the component driving the cable has a high output impedance, and especially if the length of the cable is also long, the reduction in cable capacitance that probably results from eliminating the shield may improve high frequency extension and thereby result in a more open (and accurate) sound. But in many cases increased pickup of RFI or other high frequency noise, or possible increases in ground loop-related high frequency noise (see the next paragraph, keeping in mind that ground loop issues can result in high frequency noise as well as low frequency hum), could create the subjective impression of a more open sound, while at the same time being less true to the signal source. I've seen it said a number of times over the years that low level high frequency noise can contribute to a subjective perception of increased ambience, which makes sense to me. Also, low level noise at frequencies that are too high to hear directly can conceivably have similar consequences, by intermodulating with signal in the component circuitry and thereby affecting audible frequencies. Regarding Bill's mention of a hum that went away with his 845 amp when a shielded Belden cable was used, if the shield was connected at both ends, and assuming that an unbalanced connection was involved, my guess is that the hum had been caused by a ground loop issue between the amp and the component that was driving it. Depending on the designs of the specific components, ground loop susceptibility can be affected by the resistance of the return conductor in the cable which connects them. A shield can be expected to generally have a lower resistance than a wire of moderate gauge. Regarding natural vs. artificial materials, it stands to reason that the characteristics of the insulating materials surrounding a conductor can affect the sonics of a cable in various ways. But I would be (very) hesitant to draw any general conclusions about natural vs. artificial without extensive and carefully controlled comparisons. In any event, enjoy! Best regards, -- Al |
P.S: Regarding my comment about the hum in Bill's 845 amp, that went away with the Belden cable, I see in the 8402 datasheet that the resistance of the conductors is about 33.4 ohms/kilometer (corresponding to the stated 20 gauge wire), while the resistance of the shield is only about 9.8 ohms/km (which is equivalent to the resistance of a solid copper conductor that is between 14 and 15 gauge). Also, many interconnects have conductors that are narrower than 20 gauge. That all seems consistent with the explanation I speculated. Best regards, -- Al |
Almarg you are gold!
Jim Smith has asked Siedy Abee to clarify his remarks. Hopefully Abee will respond soon. |
Al,
Thanks for your comment/explanation. Unshielded wire and natural fiber materials fit the same category as NFB (no negative feedback). By that I mean the principle(simpler and less complex) of their use and effect seems to yield positive sonic results more often than not. However it's difficult to attribute their apparent benefits in isolation. Yes they appear to improve the sound quality when implemented but other variables are very likely in play. NFB benefit will certainly be dependent on speaker characteristics.
Bill, Jet or Sal, how about making ICs with natural material and another with synthetic dielectric and compare? I know, easy for me to say.
Charles, |
Thanks Al! Very well done. Yes, it did remove a ground loop issue that only this amp seemed to have in my system. It was indeed a 60 htz hum through the woofers! I have had this same issue with other tubes amps and love the fact that a shielded cable removes this potential nagging issue.
I agree 100% with the un-shielded cable giving the perception of more air and top end extension if you will, when perhaps it is really high frequency noise. The absence of noise is a startling thing in a stereo system and something our ears have to get used to. Very interesting point/speculation Al.
I do notice I can turn up the volume with these shielded cables with no negative impact on my tinnitus. I cannot claim the same thing for past un-shielded cables of both copper and silver variety. |
Charles, I will build a nude set of WE IC's and compare once it has fully burned it. I will use this one between my dac and preamp.
It may react differently in my system vs. another's based on Al's comments above. |
Al, Thanks so much in particular for this comment.
"Regarding natural vs. artificial materials, it stands to reason that the characteristics of the insulating materials surrounding a conductor can affect the sonics of a cable in various ways. But I would be (very) hesitant to draw any general conclusions about natural vs. artificial without extensive and carefully controlled comparisons."
Folks, forgive the rant of a professional chemist and amateur philosopher. Nothing exists physically that is not made of chemicals or elements, which in turn are made of protons, neutrons, and electrons. Stated in philosophical terms, chemicals (and their constituent parts) are the material cause of all that exists, whether they be made by sentient or nonsentient efficient causes. Protons, electrons, and neutrons or their derivatives don't think. They do not know what or where they are, or how they came to be. Cotton is almost pure cellulose, which is a chemical. Cellulose does not know if its efficient cause is biosynthetic or not. It does not know or care how it came to be. It does not know if it was manufactured by people in a chemical plant or by "natural" means in a cotton plant that grows in the ground. The same is true of silk or latex rubber.
If one inherently rejects anything "artificially made," then what are you going to do for a conductor? The tin plated copper wires don't grow on trees. They are manufactured by humans in factories. The music we listen to is largely synthetic, coming into existence by the deliberate design and execution of human beings. Not many of you, I'm guessing restrict your listening to the songs of humpback whales. Nor do many of you, I think, travel by means of an all natural wooden wagon pulled by all natural mules. The outer jackets of your vacuum tubes are made of glass, not of silk.
Shall I go on? |
Thank you Almarg
This does sound reasonable:
"un-shielded cable giving the perception of more air and top end extension".
But in this case I am hearing this openness throughout the entire frequency range. To my ears I hear a more fully developed harmonic structure from the bass thru the treble that I would argue sounds like it is simply the way these cables sound. Wouldn't it be great if we could all get togehter in the same room for some listening!!
Grannyring- looking forward to your observations once you build the second pair of IC's. This will be interesting.
This goes to Charles's suggestion: I have this idea: pull off all of the insulation from some WE16ga stranded wire and then re insulate it with cotton shoe lacing. Building WE16ga interconnects in this manner would let us find out what influence that rubber insulation has. Jet |
Great posts.
Brownsfan,
How are the WE14ga working out? Plus, can we start the football season with a Giantsfan victory?! I'll let you know soon about the Capacitor/resistor/internal wire change results. |
Rob,
The WE14 tentatively seems to be working out well, as does the Belden. I am getting about 3-5 hours a day of burn in listening to Chopin during dinner and watching movies with my beloved wife in the evening. I even ordered some opera dvds yesterday! Given that my source is a less than spectacular Oppo 93, things are sounding pretty good. I'm still doing some work on getting all the music and video streaming functionality working. Once I have about 40-50 hours of burn in, I will bring a decent source downstairs and really do an evaluation. While I won't have the luxury of an A/B with the WE 16, I should be able to make a judgment as to if the 14 generally matches the character of the 16 as all of you have described it.
As for football, I am of course most happy to wish the Giants a win. Good thing you are not a JETS JETS JETS fan, in which case I could not be so accommodating.
I will certainly be very interested in hearing about the Dynamo mods as the new caps and wire settle in. That amp in stock form is just a little treasure. I am also very interested in the single ended EL 34 pentode amp that Dan Wright is working on. It is a stunningly beautiful design, and by all accounts its music is just as beautiful as its appearance. I'm guessing it is going to be a little pricey though. |
Brownsfan,
Jets, NEVER! I'll put the Browns on my "to root for list."
That Dan Wright looks like a beautiful piece, hope it sounds great as well. I guess I'll get to hear at RMAF, if I make it. ??? Best, Rob |
Bill,
Your "rant" is no problem you raised obviously valid points of which I Have no argument with. Of course all materials are composed of fundamental particles (building blocks). The question is how and why do these various materials influence sound quality. What is happening to the signal? What is taking place and at what level, molecular ? Why does paper, cotton or silk differ from teflon or polyethylene? There are builders/designers who have compared and report definite sound characteristics of various types of materials. So Bill my only curiosity is why is it so. Like I've said before, there are always more questions than satisfying answers. No reasonable person would deny that all matter is made of essential atomic building blocks.
Charles, |
Jet & others, well the WE ICs sound stunningly beautiful today. Jet, as I read your comments about when the WE ICs are at their burn-in best, I feel your excitement and pleasure.
I am there right now. Right now as I listen. I know others have used the word real, but real is the best word. The music, the singers, all sound so real. Real real. It's as if I am hearing the songs live, not the recordings I am used to. The lyrics/words seems to extend longer with far more articulation, emotion, breath, intention....oh the vocals just seem more human and the music so much more intentional and real. I am hearing every single voice inflection in such a beautiful and human manner. Not a stereo, but humans are right here with me with the delicate nuance of every syllable so evident and real. Human.
Like you Jet, I am mesmerized by the realness of this sonic experience. No, the shield is staying on! I bet it sounds very much the same as your nude ones Jet.
This WE wire is arresting in aggregate in my system. I would sell any piece in my system before letting go of this wire. Ha! That is truth. |
As an FYI, I am at some 130 hours. I pray they stay right here:) |
I am excited for you Grannyring! It's a revelation when they turn that corner and become really expressive! |
Grannyring,
I am really happy for you! Like Jet, I hope it stays right there or gets even better. |
I haven't tried WE as interconnects yet but tonight I wired up a pair of 1M cables using VH Audio V-Twist which is a twin-lead somewhat similar to the Belden 8402 but using modern materials. It also doesn't have a shield. It should make an interesting contrast with the Belden. But I will let it break in for at least 100 hours before making any comparisons. |
Grannyring Can't wait to hear more of you're impressions and I am very courious to see if they shut down on you like they did to me after about 160-170 hours. I think that at over 250 hours my WE interconnects have finally stopped changing their sound. Keep us posted. From the tone of your post I totally get how wonderful they are sounding. |
|
Salectric
Which RCA's did you use with the VH Audio V-Twist? |
I used Switchcraft 3502AAU RCA plugs on the V-Twist so I can do an apples-to-apples comparison to a pair of Belden interconnects which has the same Switchcraft plugs. I also have another pair of Belden interconnects with WBT 0102 Ag plugs. |
Salectric - Thank you for the information. |
Doing some late night listening on monoblock SET 300b amps tonight. I have been going back and forth between the shielded WE ICs I built vs the Belden. After some extended listening it is quite clear to me the WE IC is the better IC in my system on two different amps.
To summarize the differences I would say the WE is more open, resolving and reaches higher for sure. The WE is more full bodied and vivid with a bigger stage. The WE presents music with more dynamics and improved musicality. In contrast the Belden sounds a tad closed in and dark up top.
The Belden is very quiet and I like the solidity of the sound if you will. It has a nice ease and is still a great IC.
I did build a set of WE ICs without any shield....just nude and not jacketed at all. I put them in after about 20 hours of burn in and they were way to bright. They sounded brighter than my shielded version ever sounded. I bet they end up brighter in the end. We will see. |
Thanks for the update Grannyring. I've got enough WE16ga for three interconnects so later on I should build a pair with shielding. We have folks coming over for listening and a barbecue today it will be interesting to see what they think of my nude Western electric interconnects. Jet |
In terms of shielded vs unshielded cables, if anything were ever system dependent, this is certainly a good example. Enrivorment (RFI, EMI etc.) and components of choice will determine which is the best solution for sound quality.
Charles, |
Interesting article on Jeff Day Blog "Adventures in Real Sound with Mr. Shirokazu Yazaki" explains much about why the WE16ga, where they are "coming from," history, what type sound Day and Yazaki-san are after. |
I just got my bulk Belden and should have a pair of IC's completed soon. I'm excited! I've been running a 12' pair of WE16ga for a few weeks, connected to either Sonus Faber Liuto Monitors or Magnepan MMG's. Preamp is upgraded MFA Luminescence, and amplification is provided either by MFA Tube amps or NAD C272, depending on my mood. The WE wire is not twisted but I do use small nylon ties every 16 inches or so to keep the wires tidy.
I am very pleased with these speaker cables. In my system, music sounds more "alive" - perhaps it's fair to say it's closer to "the absolute sound" on a modest scale, than any other speaker cables I've had in my various systems. The texture of most instruments is more "palpable" to me. Piano is especially enjoyable. Jazz combos are glorious. Is"palpable" is roughly analogous to "timbral"? If my semantics are not apt, kindly weigh in. :)
I've got high expectations for the Belden IC's. |
Hi Grannyring, is this the shield you bought from ebay? "10' 8 AWG Gauge 3/8" X.090" Braided Flat Grounding Strap Ground Wire Copper Tin".
I want to make sure I have the correct diameter. Is 3/8 inches enough to fit the positive and negative leads of 16g WE wire? Or is 1/2. Inch a better choice. Thank you. |
Latest WE wire project consists of simple twisted 1M pairs of WE 10awg wire in a bi-wire configuration (i.e., two pairs per side). The wires are directly connected to the amplifier board of the NC1200 Acoustic Imagery Atsahs, so there are no binding posts and no spades on the amp side. The wire enters the chassis through the former binding post holes and connects directly to the board at four separate contacts, two for positive and two for negative. The woofer and midrange/tweeter wires are discrete from each other, all the way from the board to the speaker.
Currently using Furutech Rhodium plated FP-201s at the speaker end because they use two set screws and were easy to hook up. I may reconsider and switch to unplated Cardas copper spades at the speaker.
Not sure whether it is the larger gauge WE wire, short 1M run, absence of binding posts/spades on the amp end or all of the above but the combination sounds very good, with all the sonic benefits of the WE wire reported here previously and that I have experienced with the other WE wires I have made. BTW, this is in conjunction with the two sets of Belden 8402 ICs I am using. This wire is so easy to enjoy, like a favorite cheap date. |
When I first heard the WE 16ga wire my comment was oh vintage vishay ERO Fol II Aluminum foil and Mylar caps.
Those were the vintage caps in my amps.
They were hard to replace in all ways. VERY real midrange.
I suspected Yazaki-san likes that kind of sound.
Then I went on to read about his cap of choice the Arizona Green Cactus.
Guess what paper Aluminum foil in mylar...
I will be curious to hear these. The vintage ones lacked dynamics of Duelund. Just too small. They were all tone. |
Funny the long running capacitor thread was started when I heard vintage paper Aluminum foil and Mylar caps. I had heard tube amps but not like that before!
I was just shocked at how "real" the sound was real people it was not a stereo.
One amp was left stock to see if it could be beat. (that real sound) |
It looks like Jeff prefers his Belden 9402 ICs.
http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=8022 |
I see the WE wire is available right up to 10ga.
Has anyone tried compared the various WE ga's?
It all appears the same just more strands.
Running the 16ga in two separate systems. (for testing) |
It would have been useful if Jeff Day had tried a shielded version of the WE 16 ga.
|
Mortsnets thanks for sharing. Apparently Jeff likes the Belden for their "rich smooth forgiving presentation". If a listener wants to smooth over the rough edges his preference might be Belden. This would be a listener preference. In my system the WE16ga interconnects do not hide any of the rough edges of but at the same time does not sound overly bright. So WE at this point is my preference. I have well over 300 hours on them at this point. Jet |
Maxima9, I agree. I plan on building a shielded version. Currently I am running unshielded. WE16ga is so interesting sounding to me that I want to learn as much as possible before drawing any firm conclusions. Incidentally I don't necessarily agree that Belden sound forgiving at least I don't hear them that way in my system. But the WE16 IC never sounded polite to me and before they were broken in there was times that they sounded aggressive. WE16 IC are so far musical force and very expressive in my system. |
I would also add that I don't want my system to sound forgiving. Once again a listener preference. |
Jet, look at Jeff Day's blog/thread on the WE IC's as there is a link to "Take Five Audio" for Belden braided tube shielding. They offer various sizes. I used 1/4-1/3 inch as 1/2 inch would be too big. It does expand a little. Hard to work with this stuff. I soldered a 14 gauge solid core copper wire to the tip of the twisted runs and carefully pulled the twisted cable through the braided tubing. Only way to really do it.
I then covered the braid with heat shrink tubing as the braid is conductive as you know. I then covered the braid with cloth.
This was somewhat difficult and time consuming for me.
Yes, the shieded WE version is in between the nude WE cable and Belden in terms of sonic personality. I found it not quite as forgiving as the Belden and not quite as "bright" as the nude. Good middle ground for me anyway. |
