All, this is a fascinating discussion and most helpful to me.
I am beginning the process of building my living room system, which will be based on the Coincident dynamo and utilize Coincident Triumph Extreme II speakers. The room has a very lively acoustic, perhaps excessively so for the TEIIs.. I have promised my wife to respect her aesthetic preferences, which means the existing built in book cases will be used to house the electronics and also means the speaker wires will run into the crawl space and back up. This will require fairly long lengths. I got started on this too late to pick up a sufficient amount of 16 gauge stranded, but was able to obtain a 95 ft spool of the 14 gauge equivalent. Rob suggested the 14 g may in fact be preferred for long runs. If, in fact, Mitch's take on subdued high frequency response proves true in my case, that may actually be a good thing for me. I haven't ordered the Belden yet, and I may wait until after I get the speaker wires run and burned in to do so. If I find the presentation still to be a bit on the bright side, it may be that the belden will be just the ticket.
If I caught Volleyguy's point, this is not the first time I have seen an extended period of human effort intended to optimize something go badly adrift. What if, after years and years of research, the market has produced a group of products that are not up to the standards set by a bunch of low tech slide rule carrying cave men who are even older than me? Why can we still not, with all our smarts and technology, make vacuum tubes like they made 60 years ago? How did the entire industry plunge headlong into solid state gear? Anybody here think that the early solid state stuff sounded better than the old McIntosh and Marantz tube gear that was deemed outdated old school trash? Are there any of you who haven't spent time in a brick and mortar salon listening to uber expensive and highly reviewed stuff that didn't sound very good?
Yazaki-San, Jeff Day and Rob have forced us to do something harder than thinking outside of the box. They have forced us to think inside a box that has been buried in the attic for 50 years. Kudos! |
Rob,
I read all sorts of stuff from reviewers, modders, and designers I don't know. Some of it doesn't make sense, so I move on. Had I run across Day's blog on my own, I would have dismissed it without a second thought. You didn't. I can't and won't chase every wacko idea that shows up in the audio world, but I will listen to my golden-eared AG pals when they propose something counterintuitive. This episode teaches a lesson. |
OK, so I think i will put my 2 cents in ($200 actually) now. I needed about 100 ft to do my living room system and got going too late for the WE16. I got a 29 ft run, but another 3 that length wasn't going to happen. So, I took a chance on a 95 ft spool of WE14 (black, stranded, and tinned). I spent a couple days last week fishing wires through the built in bookcases, floor, and crawl space. Having finished the wiring, I began to set up the electronics. I have an old unmodified Oppo 93 feeding my Coincident Dynamo using a very old and cheap pair of monster cable ICs I had in my AV system. Speakers are Coincident Triumph Extreme IIs. I fired it up and got sound out of one channel, and it sounded like crap. I turned everything off and waited two days, during which time I mumbled something about being too good to be true repeatedly. Take a deep breath and get back at it! I took everything out set it all up on the floor, and ran an $800 pair of Audio Magic Liquid Air speaker wires for a while to get used to the sound of the Oppo. I put the stuff back in the book case, rewired everything, found the issue with the left channel, and fired it up again. It does not sound all that bad. Yes, there is a nasal quality and a roughness in certain treble frequencies that will have to resolve. I'm going to take Bill's council re burn in time to heart and reserve judgment until then. But assuming 100 hours of burn in works the promised magic, I think this stuff will work for me. I will need to bring a decent source downstairs to see what I really have. I have no explanation as to why the stuff sounded so awful that first day and now sounds more than respectable.
Best of all, I still have the 29 ft of the WE 16 in red, sitting in a box untouched. I plan on holding it, since my portfolio is a little short on precious metals. However, if someone wanted to trade me a pair of NOS WE 300B tubes straight up, I think we could probably work that out. :) Stay tuned. |
Rob, No apology necessary! I really think this wire is going to be fine once I have some burn in time. Even in its current state, I don't know of another wire in that price range that would be as good. And, as I said, I will need to bring another source downstairs before I will know anything for sure. The belden has shipped, so I should have that soon. That first day was pretty frustrating. I can't imagine what was going on. It sounded so bad, I've heard much better sound out of a boom box. Sounded a bit like my 1957 Chevy car radio. Now it sounds COMPLETELY different. Even with 3-4 hours, I am liking it more and more. I have no interest in returning the WE14 (or spending anymore time in the crawl space).
I wonder if Volleyguy is going through something similar? |
Al, You, my friend, are a genius! The lack of sound in one channel was due to the fact that I temporarily hooked up one leg of the left channel without stripping the insulation. There was a good reason why I did this, which completely escapes me now. I forgot to go back and strip that leg before powering up the amp. There was no short, which is my worst nightmare in dealing with unterminated stranded wire. I quickly realized I had no sound from that channel and quickly (like 10 seconds) turned off the amp to avoid operating the dynamo without a load on one side. At that point, it was the end of the day, and I was tired, sweaty, and hot. I had no idea where my multimeter was, so I figured I needed to shut things down and try again with a fresh start. Good decision.
So your second scenario appears to be the correct one. It is nice to know there was a reasonable physical explanation for what I heard, other than that Rob and Bill don't know what music sounds like. It is kind of funny, because the sound was so bad it was exactly what I would expect old low tech speaker wire to sound like. Bad enough that 5 seconds of music was enough to tell me something was very wrong. |
OK, I got about 8 hrs on the WE14s yesterday. The roughness in the treble is gone as is the nasal tonality. Even during this brief burn in, the musicality of these cables (I'm talking PRAT now) manifested itself. They are very smooth and grain free. I was VERY pleased with what I heard last night before I shut things down. I'm finding that the foundation pieces of this system, e.g., the Coincident dynamo, the WEs, and the Coincident Triumph Extreme IIs, to be a killer combo. I've got about 4.6K in those pieces. Crazy good for that much money! Since this will serve not only for living room music, but also see service as a two channel AV system, I'm thinking this would finish out very nicely with a ModWright Oppo 105.
Al identified the probable cause of the initial awful sound. Count me a WE 14 believer at this point. |
Nonoise, before i pulled the trigger on the WE 14 I seriously considered the Supra based on your previous comments. It is good that someone is using a similar design in current production cables. The NOS WE wire is going fast. |
Rob, I laughed at your statement about your wife commenting on the change in sound. For me, a similar event occurred when I got the TEIIs. I fired them up and my wife asked who was playing the piano. I knew right then the Magnepans were going to go. |
Charles, Yep! Piano is so hard to get right. She heard 26 years worth of LvB sonatas without ever having been fooled. Is it live, or is it Coincident? |
Rhanson, "All that's golden does not glitter." Giving these a try surely requires slaughtering every sacred cow in sight. Were it not for Rob's endorsement, who I know to share my sonic value system, I would have dismissed all this wire as someones pipe dream. However, since I was in the process of putting together a new system requiring long runs of wire, the attractive price in addition to Rob's endorsement compelled me to give it a try. While my experiment got off to a rough start, with only about 10 hours of burn in, I am very satisfied with this wire and have no doubt it will get better based on Bill's experience with burn in. Even if it gets no better than it is right now, it is a steal at the price. Nothing I have tried at 2x or 3x the price comes close. It will be, as you say, interesting to see how it turns out for you. |
Good review. As I read it, I thought of the analogy with video. I have movies that I have watched dozens of times, but not one of those has any special effects. They are great stories with great acting. Special effects are nice for a one off watch.
With audio, and you see this through so many posts, many of us are trying to get to the heart and soul of the music. What real benefit is imaging that goes way beyond anything I hear in live music? No, its about timbre and PRAT for me.
My living room has a very lively acoustic. If the WEs have a bit of a rolled off top end, it is not manifesting itself in this room. As for low frequency, well, I'm using monitors anyway, so no wire is going to deliver a 25 Hz C. The belden IC went in yesterday. Once all of this settles in and gets a couple weeks of playing time, I will bring a decent source downstairs and see what I really have.
Wonder if some of the uber expensive cable makers are getting a little nervous? |
Al, Thanks so much in particular for this comment.
"Regarding natural vs. artificial materials, it stands to reason that the characteristics of the insulating materials surrounding a conductor can affect the sonics of a cable in various ways. But I would be (very) hesitant to draw any general conclusions about natural vs. artificial without extensive and carefully controlled comparisons."
Folks, forgive the rant of a professional chemist and amateur philosopher. Nothing exists physically that is not made of chemicals or elements, which in turn are made of protons, neutrons, and electrons. Stated in philosophical terms, chemicals (and their constituent parts) are the material cause of all that exists, whether they be made by sentient or nonsentient efficient causes. Protons, electrons, and neutrons or their derivatives don't think. They do not know what or where they are, or how they came to be. Cotton is almost pure cellulose, which is a chemical. Cellulose does not know if its efficient cause is biosynthetic or not. It does not know or care how it came to be. It does not know if it was manufactured by people in a chemical plant or by "natural" means in a cotton plant that grows in the ground. The same is true of silk or latex rubber.
If one inherently rejects anything "artificially made," then what are you going to do for a conductor? The tin plated copper wires don't grow on trees. They are manufactured by humans in factories. The music we listen to is largely synthetic, coming into existence by the deliberate design and execution of human beings. Not many of you, I'm guessing restrict your listening to the songs of humpback whales. Nor do many of you, I think, travel by means of an all natural wooden wagon pulled by all natural mules. The outer jackets of your vacuum tubes are made of glass, not of silk.
Shall I go on? |
Rob,
The WE14 tentatively seems to be working out well, as does the Belden. I am getting about 3-5 hours a day of burn in listening to Chopin during dinner and watching movies with my beloved wife in the evening. I even ordered some opera dvds yesterday! Given that my source is a less than spectacular Oppo 93, things are sounding pretty good. I'm still doing some work on getting all the music and video streaming functionality working. Once I have about 40-50 hours of burn in, I will bring a decent source downstairs and really do an evaluation. While I won't have the luxury of an A/B with the WE 16, I should be able to make a judgment as to if the 14 generally matches the character of the 16 as all of you have described it.
As for football, I am of course most happy to wish the Giants a win. Good thing you are not a JETS JETS JETS fan, in which case I could not be so accommodating.
I will certainly be very interested in hearing about the Dynamo mods as the new caps and wire settle in. That amp in stock form is just a little treasure. I am also very interested in the single ended EL 34 pentode amp that Dan Wright is working on. It is a stunningly beautiful design, and by all accounts its music is just as beautiful as its appearance. I'm guessing it is going to be a little pricey though. |
