Looking for really fine cables at really low price

I wish the folks posting about the organic, natural, live sound qualities described by Mr. Yazaki-san could have attended the Capital Audio Fest in Rockville, Md. last weekend. A local dealer DejaVu Audio had a room with speakers using vintage Western Electric drivers and horns and it was driven by custom electronics built with WE and other vintage parts. The sound would have knocked you over! It was truly organic and natural sounding especially with the acoustic jazz that was playing each time I was in the room. Wire makes a difference, no question about that, but speakers and electronics with the same type of qualities make an even greater difference.

Here's a more complete description of the DejaVu room at CAF.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ymisc&1439067662&openflup&11&4#11

Jet, I can relate to your experience with the Kondo interconnect. In my case, my normal cable for phono-to-linestage is an Ocellia Silver Reference. I have compared it many times to several cables that use Belsen 8402 that are wired up with all sorts of RCA plugs some with the ground shield connected and some not. The Ocellia is superior in many ways including inner detail, smoothness in tonal balance, extension in the frequency extremes, and size of soundstage. BUT the best of the Beldens has such a lively, dynamic sound that it ends up being more fun to listen to. I would not want to be without either one since I can swap one or the other in depending on my mood.

I am withholding comments on the WE 16g wires since my wires were not fully broken in when I tried them a while back. I have a set of WE 16g wires breaking in on my video system so I should be able to try them again soon. I am hoping they may find a home as the internal wiring for my high-efficiency speakers, but in order to do that they will need to displace the 12g silver-coated copper Mil-Spec wires that I am using now. The 12g Mil-Spec has beaten all others so far including Neotech silver and Neotech copper.

I have heard Supra speaker cables in a dealer's demo system which used Western Electric horns and drivers. The system sounded great. I can't say how much the Supras were contributing to what I heard but they were certainly part of it.

Following the lead of Jetrexpro, I too am not ready to make any final judgments on the WE or Belden wires. And I agree that a final judgment on these cables must take into account not only one's position in the "neutral/accurate" vs. "rich/musical/PRAT" debate but also the other gear used with the cables. In my case, my high efficiency vintage speakers are already warm, rich and dynamic; they are very smooth (no horn shout) but the top end is slightly soft and tapers off in the extreme highs. If I use other gear with the same characteristics, the colorations become too extreme. At the same time, I don't want my cables (or amplifiers or any other gear) to interfere with or detract from any of the special qualities the speakers have in the first place. So cable selection is a bit of a tightrope walk.

Jet, have you considered trying finer gauge WE cable for interconnects instead of the 16g?

No conclusions on WE yet. Even though my initial reactions were not all that favorable, I bought some more WE 16g "just in case" and those are the wires I am breaking in right now on my video setup. These are older WE cables supposedly from the 1950s with terminations on each end. They certainly look like they were used so perhaps they won't need as much breakin as the NOS wire.

Did you happen to see the comments on AA recently by Victor Khomenko (designer of Lamm electronics) regarding breakin generally? His posts were later deleted but they essentially said that the whole notion of breakin is just psychological; it's a matter of the listener getting used to the new sound. He also said something along these lines---people who claim that parts change with breakin never say the sound gets worse, it only gets better, which was evidently to support his view that the changes are all in the listener's mind. I was seriously tempted to call him on this since I can think of a number of things that change for the worse when they breakin fully. Anyway, in my experience, breakin is very real and I can't understand how someone like Victor who is obviously very talented and able to design good sounding amplifiers does not hear the changes in breakin.

My "new" WE 16g wires (the ones from the 1980s or so) started out as bright and thin, but after a few hours, maybe 5 or 6, became very warm in the lower mids and bass and rather dark and closed in on top. I haven't used them since.

The older WE 16g wires that I am breaking in right now will have a lot more hours on them before I try them in the hifi system. As I said before, I am hoping I can use them as internal wiring for my speakers. Right now I have 12g silver-coated copper stranded Mil-Spec wire for the internal wiring, and it sounds very good in that application. However, I would prefer a less massive, more flexible wire, and the WE wires certainly meet that requirement. Sonically we will have to see.

Mikirob, it would help if you listed the equipment in your system. This would give some context to your comments. Perhaps you did this earlier in the thread; it's hard to keep track of all the details in a long thread. That's why many of us have posted our system details as a Virtual System.

As for citing Jeff Day or Yazaki or any one else for that matter, I agree with Nonoise; it adds little weight. Each of us has our own sonic priorities, our own tastes in music and our own tastes in equipment. The only opinion that matters is our own informed opinion after trying the cables in our own system. In that regard, the Belden and WE wire are no different from any other cable. The difference is that they are so inexpensive that nearly everyone can afford to try them, unlike most commercial cables. The fact that people who have tried them reach some different conclusions doesn't mean that anyone is wrong. We simply have different reactions to the cables in our own system. You can find the same thing with most uber-expensive cables. For example, Nordost Valhala cables received mostly rave reviews when they came out with everybody noting the speed and detail. But a few noted they were lean, bright and fatiguing. The lack of agreement did not mean either side was wrong.

Incidentally the one time I did follow a reviewer's advice on cables was when I bought Sablon Panatela interconnects based on Jeff Day's very enthusiastic review. I quickly concluded their sound was not what I wanted in my system. Fortunately Sablon had a 30 day satisfaction guarantee so I was able to return them, but my point is that Jeff's conclusion that the Beldens sound better than the Panatelas didn't carry much water for me.

Mikirob, if YOU had read this thread more carefully, you would know that I am not the one who compared cables to Tara Labs or Siltech. I was quoting the reviewer in Positive Feedback. I have never heard either brand at least not in my system.

Thank you for describing your system, both what you have and what you are thinking of getting. I do wish you well in your audio endeavors.

With that I think I will return to my usual lurker status and let you folks continue with your fun.

I wonder what "twisting the cable right-handed" means (per Siedy comment above). Wouldn't this change depending on which way you were looking at the cable?

I haven't tried WE as interconnects yet but tonight I wired up a pair of 1M cables using VH Audio V-Twist which is a twin-lead somewhat similar to the Belden 8402 but using modern materials. It also doesn't have a shield. It should make an interesting contrast with the Belden. But I will let it break in for at least 100 hours before making any comparisons.

I used Switchcraft 3502AAU RCA plugs on the V-Twist so I can do an apples-to-apples comparison to a pair of Belden interconnects which has the same Switchcraft plugs. I also have another pair of Belden interconnects with WBT 0102 Ag plugs.

Ps,

You may be recalling a comment I made on Jeff Day's blog with tips on assembling the Belden cables. See my comment #7 at the link below. It's dated April 18, 2015. Hard to believe it's been that long.

http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=7325#comments

In re-reading those older posts on Jeff's blog, I noticed that the RCA plugs recommended by Mr. Yazaki-san were actually Canare F-10 plugs. The Switchcraft plugs that came with Jeff's cables were recommended by Jonathan Halpern, not by Yazaki-san. See post #10 at the link.

http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=7325#comments

Maxima95, the V-Twist only has 60 hours so it's too early to draw conclusions, but so far I like it. A lot! I will report back in another week or two.

Maxima, I haven't forgotten! I was away for a while so the V-Twist cables are still a way from being fully broken in. I now have a little over 250 hours on them but Chris VH says they need 400 to 500 hours before settling down. Apparently this is due to the Teflon spacer tubes in the cable. I now have them running 24/7 and I plan to continue this until they are at least over 400.

For now I will say they certainly have a lot of potential. They have excellent speed, detail and soundstaging. I had some quibbles about the midrange but I am optimistic that will fall in line especially in light of how things have improved over the lsst 100 hours or so.

I am still using the Switchcraft RCA plugs so I can do a fair apples-to-apples comparison to my Beldens. Assuming that comparison works out in favor of the V-Twist (which I am pretty sure will be the case), I will then try the WBT 0102 copper plugs recommended by Chris VH.

I will report back in another 10 days or so. I promise!

Another reviewer's take on the WE 16g speaker wire and Belden interconnects can be found here:

http://positive-feedback.com/high-fidelity/spec-real-sound-processor-rsp-901ex-loudspeaker-filter-2/

Here are his conclusions:

I compared them to my reference cables: Siltech Royal Signature Series Double Crown Empress IC and Tara Labs Omega Onyx speaker cable. It didn't take me much time to realize that my cables offered significantly better performance. Belden and WE could not compete in terms of resolution, selectivity and they also limited frequency range on both ends (treble and bass). There is a slight emphasis on a mid-bass, and it is not equally well defined. What I found interesting about these cables was that they both acted the same way, like they came from the same manufacturer.

So it is not a universal rule that every "vintage" product sound better than those from current production. If I understood Mr Yazaki correctly he did not claim that these were the best cables he knew, but rather that with these two he found sound features he was after. So apart from comparing their sound with the sound of cables from current production, I wanted to find out what it was exactly they offered, that made them one of the kind for Mr Yazaki.

And again—when I asked the right question it didn't take me long to find an answer. Both cables offered amazingly rich, "mature" midrange—so incredibly good that the only comparison I could think of were the best amplifiers with Western Electric 300B triodes on board. Please notice—it is not about THE BEST SOUND in general, but THE BEST SOUND OF THAT KIND. The one that many of us could live with happily ever after. Sound is remarkably palpable, it is presented close to the listener, it is immersively rich. It's been a while since I heard such an incredibly rich sound here. Mr Yazaki wrote about how "organic" his system sounded like with these cables and now I knew what he meant—it was absolutely remarkable. These cables offer a wonderfully coherent presentation with properly balanced proportion between basic sound and harmonics. They are also phase coherent which results in fantastic spacing effects. Both IC and speaker cable are remarkable, not the best ones there are, but the only ones of their kind.

This is a progress report on the V-Twist wire. The V-Twist is a new DIY interconnect cable designed and distributed by Chris VenHaus of VH Audio. It is a twin lead cable where each conductor is a high purity 24 gauge solid copper wire with Teflon insulation. There is no shielding. A full description is at the link below. The cable presently sells for $15 per foot or $30 per foot for a stereo pair.

http://www.vhaudio.com/v-twist-cu24.html

The V-Twist and Belden 8402 share the same basic cable geometry in that they are both twin lead designs, but whereas the Belden uses old school materials the V-Twist is modern all the way. One consequence of this is an extremely long break in time. Chris says 400 to 600 hours is required---the cable reaches about 90% of its potential in 400 hours and the remaining finishing touches fall into place during the next couple hundred.

I initially wired the V-Twist with Switchcraft 3502AAU RCA plugs so I could do a fair comparison with my Belden 8402 cables that use the same plugs. Chris recommends WBT 0102 Cu plugs for best performance.

My V-Twist cables now have 440 hours so they are over the 90% mark. I will spare you the details of how the sound changed during this time. Suffice it to say the sound changes rather significantly so hold off on making any judgments until they have at least the 400 minimum.

I compared my 1M V-Twist cables to several other interconnects as the link between my phono preamp and linestage. The other cables on hand for a direct comparison were: Belden with Switchcraft plugs, Belden with WBT 0102Ag plugs, Ocellia Silver Reference and Wireworld Eclipse II.

In a nutshell, the V-Twist wire has excellent inner detail, a smooth extended tonal balance, excellent dynamics, and a neutral perspective in terms of soundstaging. The specific qualities are affected quite a bit by the RCA plugs used. For example, the Switchcraft 3502AAU plugs have an inherently warm tonal balance, slightly rolled off treble, soft leading edges on transients, pretty good detail, and a somewhat upfront perspective. With the Switchcraft plugs, that is how the V-Twist sounds. Unfortunately the softness annoys me so I moved the WBT 0102Ag plugs from one pair of my Belden cables to the V-Twist. This made for some very interesting changes. Basically the V-Twist with silver WBTs is fast, clean and detailed, with full extension in the treble, and the softness is gone, but the V-Twist now sounds somewhat lightweight; the bass is not as weighty as it was with the Switchcrafts and there is a hint of "plastic" colorations in the midrange especially. Perhaps I need to use the copper WBT plugs as Chris recommends, or perhaps both the V-Twist and WBT plugs need more hours. (The WBTs have about 150 hours on them.) I plan to run the V-Twist/WBTs for another week or so with signal 24/7 and see how it sounds then. If it still has some issues, I will consider getting a set of copper WBTs.

From what I have heard so far, the V-Twist clearly has much potential. To my ears it is in a very different league than the Belden 8402.

For those wanting to try the Duelund wire as interconnect, I suggest waiting until the new small gauge Duelund wire is available early next year.  It should have greater potential than the 16g.  

I have posted a few times that my experiences with WE wire as speaker cable were not successful.  I reached the same conclusion with the Duelund 16g wires.  While the Duelund is clearly better than the WE, it still falls short of what I consider acceptable in terms of resolution, tonal balance and micro-dynamics.  

I decided to give the Duelund a final chance by trying it with Furutech spades rather than with bare ends.  If this causes me to change my opinion on the Duelund, I will post a follow-up comment.  I just ordered the spades so I will take me a couple weeks.

Rob, you're right, I have been the minority view throughout.  But I find it interesting that my complaints about the WE16 are now acknowledged as the areas where the Duelund improved on the WE.  The majority apparently didn't hear these limitations until they heard the Duelunds.  

My opinion has been the same all along: the WE and Duelund are great values but they are not world-beaters as some people claim.  And my opinion is based on what I hear with my own ears, not what some other hobbyist says on his blog.  Magazine reviewers, ezine writers and bloggers serve a function in that they can introduce others to products they might not hear about otherwise, but when it comes to drawing conclusions about how something sounds I only trust my own ears.

Granny, my speaker cable is a Wireworld Eclipse, the original version that dates back to the 1990s.  I have tried many other cables over the years but I always return to the Eclipse.

I realize this is off-topic but for those who might be interested in trying different resistors in their tube electronics, I highly recommend the new Audio Note Silver tantalum resistors.  They are only available as 2 watt and so may not be suitable for all applications.  

I have gradually been converting my electronics over to use the AN Silvers in most critical spots, and I have been very pleased with the improved sound quality each time.  The Silvers have greater resolving power, better micro-dynamics and better transparency than the resistors they replaced which include older style Audio Note Tantalums, Mills wirewounds and others.  Unfortunately they take a long time to break in, 100 hours or more.  Both PartsConnexion in Canada and Hifi Collective in UK carry the full range of Audio Note resistors.