Been through the high end maelstrom for over 30 years and although I have enjoyed the ride, I desperately want to find speakers that exude dynamics, tone and presence. I want to be transported to the Village Vanguard where The John Coltrane Quartet are performing any night I desire. I want to feel the timbre of his sax 🎷. When I close my eyes I want to be enveloped by the atmosphere of the space and awash with the impact and emotion being expressed by the musicians. I don’t want to hear what the engineers hear after they mix a recording...I want to be in the studio when the tracks are being laid down! So far, Tannoy Heritage Arden have come to my attention, Klipsch Cornwall IV’s, JBL S4700’s or perhaps Spatial Audio X3’s? Help
@dave_b : Good that you like Coltrane there, this is not the issue. I already told you that I don't care about you like because no one can argue against it. Again that's not the issue.
Now, you have subs and that fact makes so easy to test about and then you can have an idea of what not only me but the ones that knows are talking about. I gave you a list of manufacturers on the issue ask them but more important than that: test it , you almost have all what you need for. Is up to you.
No one can talk on that issue if have not first hand experiences. You are not stupid gentleman as other persons that posted in your thread.
Again, just test it. You can't lost nothing and can have excellent rewards to share to audio community.
Again, Raul is using an Appeal to Authority logical fallacy, and again fails to explain why this relates to the woofer of the Cornwall in particular. Both quotes don't really say anything about this particular driver.
Its well-known that crossovers help reduce IMD and Doppler Effect distortions in loudspeakers. Both the quotes Raul has used to far to try to make the Klipsch look bad are educational, but Klipsch has a crossover too and for the same reason.
Raul, If you want to find a way to criticize this speaker, perhaps look at seeing if there are any measurements that show breakup of that woofer within its passband. Use something that actually relates to the speaker rather than innuendo.
Sure Raul...that’s why Coltrane sounds so freaking great in my den!! BTW, why aren’t you listening more to your most excellent system dude? Listen on bro 😎
@dave_b : "
I knew that! ". So you are wrong exactly as him because the CW woofer handled frequency from around 35hz to 800hz frequenciesand develops high IMD no matters what that can be fixed using a subwoofers where both CW and subs crossover 80-100hz. You already know the instruments including human voice that are inside that frequency range and its reponse are modulated but the woofer low frequency.
"" Practical example s of Intermodulation Distortion (IMD) measurements
Intermodulation distortion can also be
used effectively to evaluate crossover
designs. If a transducer is excited with
a fixed low frequency test tone, for
example near resonance to cause large
diaphragm excursions, and another
test tone that sweeps up in frequency,
the resulting distortion will indicate
both amplitude modulation distortion
and Doppler frequency modulation distortion. The Doppler phenomena in
loudspeakers occurs when a high frequency source is shifted by a low frequency.
Look at the IM distortion for the fullrange loudspeaker with its single driver
trying to reproduce the entire frequency Fig. 21a Harmonic Distortion components are attenuated by filter networks while 3rd
range (Fig. 22). There is a lot of 2nd
order difference frequency components remain the same level as the excitation frequencies,
order IM distortion. This is quite audi- fi andf2 (assuming 100% distortion)
12
ble in the midfrequency range. If a
chamber music duet with a cello and a
flute is played through a single driver,
the driver might cause the high frequencies of the flute signal to be modulated by the low frequencies of the cello
signal. ""
That CW woofer is just terrible even that you said " low distortions ".
This appears to be a classic example of an Appeal to Authority, which is a logical fallacy. Anytime a logical fallacy is used, the result is false by definition.
While the topic he quotes is correct, it is unrelated tRaul's conclusion; the woofer in the Cornwall is of course crossed over. This prevents the Doppler Effect and distortion components this driver would make (which would otherwise show up at higher frequencies); instead the midrange horn is doing that job. Put another way, the woofer is not a 'fullrange loudspeaker' as described in the quote.
Dear @dave_b This is a high-ligth of measured works made by Bruel&Kjeuer about sound/distortions. Unfortunatelly the ggraphics can't be seen here but the expert explanation speaks by it self:
"" Practical example s of Intermodulation Distortion (IMD) measurements
Intermodulation distortion can also be
used effectively to evaluate crossover
designs. If a transducer is excited with
a fixed low frequency test tone, for
example near resonance to cause large
diaphragm excursions, and another
test tone that sweeps up in frequency,
the resulting distortion will indicate
both amplitude modulation distortion
and Doppler frequency modulation distortion. The Doppler phenomena in
loudspeakers occurs when a high frequency source is shifted by a low frequency.
Look at the IM distortion for the fullrange loudspeaker with its single driver
trying to reproduce the entire frequency Fig. 21a Harmonic Distortion components are attenuated by filter networks while 3rd
range (Fig. 22). There is a lot of 2nd
order difference frequency components remain the same level as the excitation frequencies,
order IM distortion. This is quite audi- fi andf2 (assuming 100% distortion)
12
ble in the midfrequency range. If a
chamber music duet with a cello and a
flute is played through a single driver,
the driver might cause the high frequencies of the flute signal to be modulated by the low frequencies of the cello
signal. ""
That CW woofer is just terrible even that you said " low distortions ".
You can say what you will about horns and compression drivers, and I know they aren't for everyone. But don't go spouting off about high levels of distortion with this tried and true design. If you want to diss a horn speaker you need to shake a different tree than that.
@jtcf Thanks! I love the old school retro vibe look, smell and feel as much as the sound. It’s really difficult to get full bodied dynamic sound with low distortion and great clarity in a speaker system these days. Soundstage is huge, which was a big surprise to me, given that they are large boxes. In an imperfect world, the Cornwall’s can offer a sweet warm embrace for my audio soul whenever I need it...and I need it a lot!
So I’m now Delta Bravo? How very...military of you 😅. The 4429’s were a revelation for me in what a horn based box speaker could deliver. The B&W’s were a last gasp at the crazy high end neurotica segment of audio dreams...but where the Cornwall’s better the JBL’s are in terms of scale, clarity and wide deep soundstaging. They are just more alive and present sounding! Both are highly recommended 👍
Delta Bravo, while your flight plan is sound, you need to adjust your angle of descent. The Cornwalls "are in another league completely than the JBL 4429s?"
Really?
Sorry man, I'm not buying what you're selling. I think it's great that you're deliriously happy (for now) with the Cornwalls but you proclaimed that you were deliriously happy when you bought your "endgame" JBLs too.
Personally I like both speakers but would reverse the order of preference.
Hey, I hope you've found your "final pair." But given your fickle history, I don't believe for one moment that you have.
I like VTL, Quicksilver, Music Reference, The Carver 275, Decware, Line Magnetic. My current amp is a NOSvalves VRD ST-45. But I have a Raven Audio Osprey on order that might unseat it.
Of all the tube amps I have owned there have only been three that I couldn't get rid of fast enough.
VAC PA 100/100 Sonic Frontiers Power 2 Cary SLI-80
@Ozzy62, I've never owned a BAT product, but have owned VAC, Leben, ARC, Mastersound, Joule (pre). What are some of your favorites (as we wait to see if this unit gets the boot)?
I've owned two BAT preamps and a friend had a BAT SS amp for years. That said, BAT would NOT be my first choice today. Or even second. But I bet that integrated would sound pretty good and give dave a taste of tubes. But there are far better tube amps for far less money IMHO.
I'd at least try to make it work. Unless the hum is unbearable, I could put up with it at least long enough to compare it to the Krell.
Rocky losses 23 times before coming the champion a you put it back in box first day? People on this site help and maybe you just don’t want spend on amp and it easy to do send it back. Daniel son got hit in face by Johnny and still would try to make amp to hear work with speaker. You need Mr myogi you take back out and fix amp.
You really shouldn't talk about ignorance Raul. Don't look down on others thinking that their opinions and experience are of less value than yours. And while your holding yourself in such high regard, at least learn to spell so that we down here can understand your proclamations. And by the way, even Townshend says that supertweeter placement on top of the speakers is fine.
Dear @mijostyn @cliff12 : Both of you are rigth and Mijos I don’t know if millercarbon is reffering in his post to you, me or some one else but if he reffered to you then he is wrong for say the least.
"" The low frequency -3dB point of the first order crossover is set at 20Khz ""
that’s came from Townshend site and been a first order crossover is the main culprit of what you posted about that 6khz frequiency response but as critical of that fact is that that supertweeter can’t be at the rigth distance from the speaker tweeter. Something to take in count too is that the ribbon driver design in the ST has a way different frequency dispersion than horns.
But it’s useless for both of you posting in this thread when it’s surrounded by some pseudo MUSIC lovers and pseudo audiophiles that unfortunatelly have very low knowledge levels. At least it’s what they showed and follow showing.
Go figure that at the other frequency extreme ( bass range ) is a Rel sub working ( in the wrong way. ) from around 30hz so the 60hz harmonics is listening at the same time that 60hz main speaker frequencies ! ! !
Unfortumnatelly too that some are swiming in the stupidity sea and for what I can see never will go out of that sea.
However, 3 weeks ago, I finally bought a set of the Townshend ribbon
supertweeters, and I have to say that they are as good as I had heard
that they are.
Always good to hear from experienced audiophiles who actually listen and know what they're talking about. Thanks!
Not a bad idea dave_b. I would never buy a Townshend product for the same reason I would never buy a Walker product. Their marketing is insulting and most of their products are totally worthless if used as directed. Adding supertweeters to loudspeakers is a matter of taste not accuracy. These tweeters run down to 6 kHz and will be very audible. This might make some people think they are getting more detail but what they are really getting is a brighter more confused treble. Unless you can get the super tweeter within 1/2" of the tweeter in the loudspeaker they will be perceived as two separate drivers. Can you tell if there is only one trumpet playing vs two? You want the speaker to speak in one voice. You will notice that in line source speakers using dynamic drivers like Bob Carver's Ultimate Line Source the tweeters are stacked in a line very close together. In this way the are forming a single line source. With an add on tweeter you will always hear it as a separate source and it will always sound...artificial. Experiments we did way back with Decca ribbon tweeters bore this out and we stopped selling them as add-ons.
daveb, I actually tried a bought an inexpensive set of planar magnetic supertweeters to augment my speakers last year, and found them to be disappointing. The ones that I bought sounded sort of "dry". However, 3 weeks ago, I finally bought a set of the Townshend ribbon supertweeters, and I have to say that they are as good as I had heard that they are.
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