I was in my favorite audio store yesterday talking turntables… Rega P10, MoFi MasterDeck etc, when he stated he had a Linn LP12 he was selling for a customer at $2,400 & the customer had $14K (with upgrades) into it. Intriguing, but knew nothing about Linn. After my research, people seem to love it or hate it. But it is installed in many fine audiogon systems.
I would like your thoughts and recommendations.
I have asked the following questions of the dealer:
1. Date of production
2. Upgrades that have been added
3. Power supply / tone arm
4. Condition
5. Recently serviced
I have not yet seen it, but it is there now. What other questions should I ask?
Audiophilia is a complex system. Every listener is different with different musical tastes and different gear in different environments. Taking the LP12 alone, there are a very many different permutations of components.
Like in politics, people demand simple responses to complex issues. They join cults and vote for bull in the china shop demagogues to get them. Like with getting Brexit done, you can see the appeal of just buying a Technics SL-1200 and forgetting about the turntable forever.
Yet, they can't just live and let live. It rankles them that a privileged minority might have found a better way. To justify their jealousy and anger, they resort to conspiracy theories about Linn "marketing'" built on myths and fables about Ivor forty or more years ago. Then, in the ultimate irony, they accuse the LP12 owners of being a cult.
Of course, first paragraph excluded, I'm not being entirely serious here. In reality, the LP12 is only a bloody turntable.
GHD, Linn make tube gear too? Who knew? I’ve owned a Leica M3 all my life, it seems. I doubt Linn has a corner on every phase of the reproduction chain. Good, probably.
I have experience with Zeiss and Sony. Different destination... very different destinations. Both are excellent in their own way. But in audio terms Zeiss / Sony is like Boulder / Magico and Leica more like Audio Research or CJ / Sonus Faber.
@ghdprentice, for absolute clarity, I was referring to Sony in terms of the sensors (also used b Leica) rather than Sony's cameras. But I stand by saying that the Zeiss Otus's will stand up against any 35mm lens and give top MF lenses a good run for their money as well.
My point remains… they get you to very different places. Sensors are like DAC chips in audio equipment…. They are a subcomponent of the camera and their overall performance is the result of the overall design… software and other components used to make the camera. So it depends which camera that Sony sensor is in. Zeiss is every much as good a lens as a Leica but very different in how it renders images. I have a Zeiss built for my Leica, I never use it… it produces very analytical looking photos. There are two components that differentiate Leica… the Leica lens and body. So if you contrast say Nikon D800 with a Zeiss lens, with a Leica and Leica lens you have the contrast I explained earlier.. Boulder / Magic vs Sonus Faber / Audio Research. Two very different destinations.
Since you were taking sensors… let me restate my point… a Zeiss lens on a
@mylogicSo yes, I thought that I'd chime in. For someone who doesn't own an LP12 and I'll assume have not really listened to one and its variants over the years over any real time, I am curious about the tank turret reference to the Ittok arm. From my perspective the Ittok looks pretty straight forward in design; clean, simple, well made. If that is a tank(I'm assuming the pivot) turret, then from what I see lately in top end tonearms must be ICBM missile gantries. What do you consider a good deal for the $2400 the OP is spending? I don't see any photos of what you're using in your setup. Disclosure: I own a LP12, and no, I don't get angry about negative opinions of what I like. Years ago(I wish I could find the thread), I sort of got into it with someone here: we disagreed about some of the upgrade paths for the the Linn where we had friends of ours help out in our decisions. But we figured out our disagreement(or he did), apparently my friends were not as sophisticated/good as his friends. Well there, we settled it. Now I could have been offended by that, but instead it made me kind of laugh. I was not offended but found it humorous and I left it at that.
@vitussl101 There always seem to be folk on all audio forums who have little to no experience with a Linn LP12, but who also have no issue with denigrating the table for one reason or another. I suspect it is due to a few issues that these folk have...one being jealousy of the success that the table enjoys..and two, because of racism against the owners.
Davey, What sort of racism is that? Anti-Tiefenbrun-ism? I would have thought he was British or Scottish, but the name suggests possibly German originally. Perhaps you would like to correct that sentence or else explain it better.
I bought an LP12 40 years ago, and had it for 22 years. I’ve been on several British forums for 20 plus years in which their are many Linn users, and this the first time I’ve heard any connection between Linn/LP12 and semitism.
As a Jewish person who often plays the game "Jew, not a Jew" with one of my close friends, I can say that I had no idea at all that Ivor might be Jewish, if that is what you are implying, Davey. I never thought about it one way or the other. Yet I am no fan of the LP12. I think it is a reach to connect LP12 criticism with anti-semitism. There's enough of the real thing going around already.
Ok, now this thread has gone south.
It is common in the US to blame everything on racism & thought this comment was a reference to that. I am done with this thread.
I am glad to hear that someone shares my suspicion that there may be at least a small element of anti-Semitism behind the anti Linn sentiment that abounds online, particularly in the criticism of its founder’s activities decades ago. People who don't know the UK shouldn't dismiss this lightly. Especially in my youth here in the UK, I have heard anti-Semitic remarks many times. I have kept this suspicion to myself for many years for fear that it would open a can of worms. Thanks for having the courage to say it out loud, even if it offends the sensibilities of some.
It’s a shame that you feel like that after people have genuinely tried to answer your original post. This isn't directly related to what's currently going on in the US.
I started out by saying I knew nothing about the Linn LP12, let alone its founders religion or culture.
I did a little research and can’t find your reference to racism towards Linn, although i am sure it is there. I did find that Ivor was Jewish. His family fled from Austria to Scotland in 1939 (I can only imagine).
Antisemitism is real and wrong on so many levels. But IMHO I have to agree with Lewm when he said “I think it is a reach to connect LP12 criticism with anti-semitism. There's enough of the real thing going around already.”
Regardless, my apologies for making light of something that is real to you and others.
@signaforce I don’t think anyone here is concerned about criticism of the Linn LP12 from folk who have at least a modicum of experience with the table. i certainly am not. However, as I pointed out earlier, the table and Linn and more importantly, Ivor himself, have had a history of being denigrated by folks who have zero experience with the products. This is not a political aspect, because politics is not really involved here. (well at least to the extent that there do not seem to be competitors who might gain something by naysaying, albeit that is possible...but not really what is being discussed here).
Also, your OP was perfectly understandable, and my comments to the thread have nothing to do with you personally.
We have now discussed Leica cameras, Sony cameras and now the anti-semitism against the Tiefenbrun family, back to the table and its merits...of which there are many.
I’ll try to get back on track with a summary of my thoughts on the turntable.
It is perfectly valid to suggest the LP12 might not be the best turntable option for everyone. For example, my grown up children all have ProJects because the LP12 was too expensive.
What we share is a love of vinyl records -- the choice of turntable is secondary. Some people may prefer the sound and looks of a Rega, a Technics or whatever.
Personally, I found that the LP12 had something special about its sound right from the word go. Also, its modular design enables future upgrades, if that’s the way the one is likely to go. You can be confident that Linn will be introducing more upgrades in future. The downside is that they are getting more expensive, but at least there’s a choice.
It’s all a matter of personal preference and tastes. In the UK, we are blessed with a good Linn dealer network. In other parts of the world, lack of service facilities may be a problem.
I regularly hear records on other turntables at a vinyl night in our local pub. Clearly, it does not always have to be an LP12 to enjoy vinyl.
I’ve owned an LP 12 since 1998. Over that time there have been a number of changes that I’ve made- different arm, cartridge, power supply, bearing and chassis. I find it to be an excellent turntable. Are there better? Probably. Do I care? Not one bit. This is my last turntable.
@zavato While I agree that the LP12 is an excellent table ,and I am a big fan of it, I also think that as the price increases, it begins to bump up against competition that would/should make one choose differently.
I agree @daveyfand if I have not had my LP12 all these year and I were getting into vinyl from the ground floor, I seriously question whether I would choose the LP12, not because it's bad, because there are other excellent options. But I am not about to dump my LP12 at this point!
BTW, yes, the Teifenbrun family is Jewish. With a turntable called a Sondek, a small speaker called a Katan, and kids names Gilad & Natan, a cartridge called Akiva, the clues are there.
Has the price of the LP12 really increased that much?
Yes, there have been upgrades that have added to the price, if buy them. You don’t need to though.
There’s lot of talk about it being expensive. But very little in the way of price comparisons with equivalent turntables on a fair like for like basis.
I made a comparison of a Klimax LP12 with the Technics SL-1000R. Once you take the Linn cartridge, phono stage and Machined Radikal out of equation, the LP12 is actually much cheaper.
It’s a case for the LP12 Radikal power supply that has been machined out of a solid block of aluminium. It matches other Klimax components in style. However, the considerably cheaper Standard or Akurate Radikal does exactly the same job. Linn never claimed there was any benefit to sound quality.
@newton_john If you take the LP12 Klimax and divide it into its various parts, then subtract some of these parts, you will certainly be left with a less expensive table.
For example, one can utilize a Lingo 4 instead of a Radikal, but you give up not only the better speed controller, but also the superior motor. I don’t think this becomes a fair comparison if you then say, well this table or that table is more expensive or less expensive...than this or that LP12 version?
The LP12 in its top flite form has increased in price a lot over the years, and yes it has also increased a lot in ability and quality.
When I talk about competition to the current LP12 Klimax with bedrock plinth and its price, I see a number of competitors that are now on my radar. More if we are also including a used table, which in many cases is an even better purchase. For example, one can acquire a very nice Brinkmann, or a TW Acoustics...for similar money as the full bore Linn. That option used not to be the case.
IMO, and I have stated this numerous times before, the basic table is close to as great as one can get, but it is severely let down by the arm choices that work with it, and the competition simply is not hampered in this way! Want multiple arms, nope won’t work, want an arm that has exacting and multiple adjustment options, no not offered, want an arm that is compatible with large number of cartridges...not offered, want an arm that utilizes an arm cable from the cartridge pins to the phono stage in one piece, nope..not possible etc.,
One other thing, IF ( maybe a BIG IF) Linn ever do get around to upgrading and replacing the old war horse EKOS-SE, I would suspect that their new arm would be priced so far into the stratosphere ( based on what they are asking for the Bedrok plinth) that probably just a very few would ever consider it within budget! Not ideal either, IMO.
In essence, all you’re saying is that it’s complicated.
There’s a whole range of LP12s that can be compared with lots of other turntables.
Is the LP12 going to win out in every case? Of course, it can’t.
It all depends on what the person is looking for. For example, is there synergy with what you’ve already got? That was the case with me last year.
With such a variety of components, it’s always going to be possible to find one element to criticise. Everybody has their own bete noire.
My point was that quoting the high price of a brand new top of the range LP12 with cartridge, phono stage and all the bells and whistles to argue that the LP12 is expensive is a complete non sequitur. So what. Lots of hifi is expensive.
The fact is the basic cost of the LP12 hasn’t changed as much as some people try to make out.
All Linn has done is to try to compete in a more rarefied market as well. That doesn’t really affect current owners of the LP12 who have no desire to upgrade. It’s what Linn need to do to survive and prosper. I am not sure why so many people are getting their knickers in a twist about it.
@newton_john Agreed. With the added point that the LP12 at its Klimax level with the Bedrok plinth is expensive..in relation to its competition. IOW, it is then possible to acquire a superior product for a similar, or maybe even lower price. Are there even more expensive tables that do not sound as good as the LP12 Klimax with Bedrok?I believe that is also true.
The LP12 Majik model is IMO a very good deal and a superior option to the competition, which is why i recommended it up thread. The Akurate model is also priced competitively, IMO.
Not complaining about the price of the new LP12 Klimax with Bedrok, simply pointing out that not only have Linn now placed themselves in a price level of table that the consumer now has a number of options that are possibly better value, but also they have now almost required their more sophisticated buyer to "shop around".
Sorry, I don’t know enough about other high end turntables to comment on the Bedrok LP12’s ability to compete with them.
The one thing I would say is Linn managed to sell a couple of hundred LP12-50s. That must amount to a few million pounds turnover.
Presumably, Linn have given the Bedrok careful thought. Perhaps, they think there’s enough people with Klimax LP12s who will upgrade to Bedrok to make it pay.
I must admit that if I had the money to spare, I’d at least consider Bedrok. As it is, the only way I could conceivably buy one would be second hand. Even then it is unlikely, but never say never.
I own and have owned many turntables. Despite having a recent model P3 with the outboard power supply, I am not a Rega fan. They are neither high mass, nor suspended. It was bought as an interim machine when the speed regulation went south on my SOTA and I had not yet convinced myself to spend the money for a TechDas. After the Rega I bought a base LP12, a Majik with the new bering. I had the dealer upgrade it at purchase time to a Lingo so I did not have to change the belt to play 45 rpm LPs. The arm did not cue properly so I took the table back to the dealer and went to an Ekos SE. This combination with my Lyra Etna Lambda SL or Linn Kandid is very good. I now have a TechDas Air Force Premium III S witha Triplanar U2 SE, but the Linn was really not that far behind in sound quality. Hopefully soon I will get it to my dealer and let him put the Kandid back on it. The Kandid is Lyra made and sounds like the old Helikon to me. Clear but a touch thin.
Point being, a properly configured LP12 can hold it's own with just about any table currently produced. And considering aesthetics, mine has the piano black plinth and I think it looks quite good.
@robob You say the LP12 can hold its own with just about any table produced. While I wouldn’t go that far, as I have heard some amazing tables, like the Brinkmann, the new Esoteric, and even the SAT, I have not compared them in my system. I do feel that the LP12 has some inherent weaknesses that are part of the basic design. One such weaknesses, imo, is the inability of the table to accommodate multiple arms, also the fact that the table is highly restrictive of what arms will work with the suspension.
Aesthetics wise, I would agree that the Linn is one of the better looking tables.
@newton_john The lack of choice for an arm for the LP12 platform, one that will have synergy with the old fruit box, is IMO the biggest down side of ownership of this table. So, yes, that is, as you say..my particular bugbear. Plus, the old war horse Ekos Se is way past its sale by date, again IMO.
Doesn't mean to say that I am not a fan of the LP12, just means my endearment has its limits. :o)
At present, I am enjoying vinyl so much that I can’t imagine needing any more upgrades.
Certainly not the two options that Linn are offering me, Exstatik and Bedrok. Those two would cost considerably more than I spent on acquiring and upgrading the turntable last year.
From here on in, it feels like the cost is out of all proportion to the benefits. Maybe, a replacement for the Ekos SE would change my mind, but at present I can’t see it because it would probably cost close to the Bedrok price.
Ironically, the Utopik upgrade that I might consider is not expected any time soon.
I share your opinion on the Rega... I owned one for a couple years. And agree the Linn will holds its own... on any tables remotely in the same price category. Of course, that is a very big range given the options.
@newton_john Another very good point. One that I’m not sure Linn has fully considered. The cost to benefit ratio. This ratio seems to be going further into the negative aspect in all of high end…IOW, the cost is far too great for the benefit, albeit I know this is a individual decision..and to some there is no benefit that is not worth the cost. I’m not sure how many folks on this forum will come to that conclusion, but there are certainly others that do.
At the end of the day, it comes down to a tension between how much we value the benefit to sound quality and how deep our pockets are. I have long since come to the conclusion that there’s no need to be at the cutting edge all the time. That’s just as well because I can’t afford to keep up with Linn anyway.
For just a few weeks, I was fortunate to have Linn’s top LP12, bar the cartridge that is. I am not going to lose any sleep over Bedrok knocking me off the top of the heap. I knew it was coming before I bought my turntable. Maybe, I’ll be able to pick up a second hand Bedrok in a couple of years time, when the cost benefit analysis is more favourable. I can wait.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
