Linn Bedrok LP12 Plinth Upgrade
Linn has a new plinth upgrade for the LP12. Wow, over $11,000 USD!
301 & 401 The Garrard’s were mainly sold as just decks…..no plinth. SME…. The company has stopped supplying individual models now and only sell them fitted on their SME turntables l believe. No back catalogue of spares for older stuff from the 70s is now commercially viable. It is a shame the UKs leading arm designer has now abdicated and left the building. |
Nailed it! You have very precisely described my SME plinth. My grease-bearing Garrard 301 has the SME 3009 improved fixed head shell tone arm, and the Shure V15 Type III cartridge (hyper elliptical stylus). My dad gave it to me so it has sentimental value I got given it when I was on a world business trip just after CDs came out, and just after my hifi was stolen. I bought Quad gear on that trip - pre-amp, amplifier and ESL-63 speakers - so hardly used the turn table. The on-going debates on vinyl versus digital and the rising value of Garrard decks has piqued my curiosity. What is all the fuss about? You mentioned start up speed - half a revolution - and they can stop just as quickly. I have replaced the main bearing with an oil bearing from the Classic Turntable Company. I have kept the plinth as an outer shell and dustcover, but removed the flimsy base. It is now infilled with constrained layers of MDF on IsoAccoustics OREA Bordeau pucks sitting on 50-kg of Sydney sandstone. The deck springs are bypassed at the moment, but can be used for a comparison. Thank you for the extra information! UPDATE That makes sense. My dad originally housed the Garrard in a cabinet I designed and he built. The board in the SME plinth looks factory cut to me, from veneered chipboard! Could be my next upgrade. It is a pity SME cannot supply parts for these plinths! |
Yes Richard, you have the SME Plinth System l mentioned. You could buy all the parts separately. When l bought the 401 from a friend he had the deck mounted on a hi-fi bench with just the Perspex lid. As he was an electrical engineer he was able to order me just the base and counter spring hinges to make the full system. All your descriptions confirm this…. sides progressively bigger from the base up. Four large rod spring adjusters with black knobs to level the sub-chassis in each corner. Silver trim 360 degrees around sides. Very heavy cover with counter balanced spring assembly to keep the lid up. Holes in the back for mains and RCA cables. It was a MONSTER and could creak at times (thick grease on spring bases fixed this).The sub-chassis did not bounce very much and was quite rigid. The 401 needed a really substantial plinth and this construction was the best option available. We now know solid granite or very heavy wooden bases do the job much better. Everything is as you describe. There are always some on eBay in the UK as more were sold here of course. The classic Garrard set up in the early 70s in the UK was considered to be…. Garrard 401 SME 3009 or the 3009 improved Shure V15 mkII or mkIII (or Goldring G800 or G850, but they didn’t track so well) SME Plinth System. There has always been a debate on which was the best of the two turntables. It comes down to personal choice in appearance or operational preference. Underneath there was little design difference. The 401 would clunk a lot using the twist start/stop control. The corner levers of the 301 were easier. BBC DJs would normally position the stylus half a revolution from the start of the track next to be played and the 301 was much easier to engage the motor and supposedly had quicker motor up to speed performance. The BBC STORY The 301 was the standard BBC radio turntable in the 60s and was the most loved by the pioneering DJs. The 401 was intended to replace these radio stations 301s as Garrard wanted to maintain this status of suppliers of said turntables.It backfired on Garrard as the DJs demanded that the 301s be retained and put back because the 401 was not so easy to use. The DJs preferred the controls and quicker take up speed performance of the 301. The batch of 401s l was told were re-boxed and then just chucked into a corner of a room somewhere. About 12 years ago someone was selling four mint 401s in their original boxes on eBay saying they did a BBC clearance on old gear that were ‘surplus to requirements’. I remembered all this and was able to tell the seller as to how they found their way there. I informed him of this story and he was selling each one far too cheaply (about £600 each) ……..l should have bought them all myself. UPDATE l don’t believe the SME Plinth System appeared until the 401 was in production so your model 301 was probably rehoused. SME would cut out the sub-chassis to your chosen turntable and SME arm model position if requested.
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@mylogic
I am wondering if the SME plinth I was given with my Garrard 301 is an example of the huge SME Plinth System? At first glance, it has stepped sides, a floating deck and is essentially hollow with just a flimsy hardboard base. The Garrard 301 does include six springs positioning its motor in space, and each spring is damped by a rubber tube around its middle. Garrard also intended that the 301 should be mounted on a deck which is spring mounted to a plinth. Garrard supplied the springs but not the deck, nor the plinth. My SME plinth has long corner-mounted threaded rods which sit in the springs and can be adjusted by twisting four attached knobs above the deck. The deck is damped at each corner by soft foam blocks, so lowering the deck increases the damping. Nevertheless, the springing is nowhere near as soft or as "long travel" as an LP12
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@mylogic The interesting thing that occurs to me is that in this hobby, many times folk are not aware of the failings, or shortcomings, of their systems. Only upon an exposure to what they are missing can they discover what is either a) missing from their systems portrayal or b) a solution to the issue. Unfortunately, since it is just as easy to go backwards in system development as it is to go forwards, the opportunity for doing more damage is there. For example, I have heard on many occasions, folk whose rooms are not able to develop accurate bass, or more intimacy in quiet recordings...utilize fixes that are detrimental and result in even less pleasant sound. Sometimes these very same folk realize the error and rectify it, most times they do not...and the system begins to go down a slippery slope. Easy to do. |
Dire Straits Private Investigations ‘’breaking milk bottle’’ and ‘‘intimacy’’ test with a pussy….yes there is a ‘musical’ one in there. Knopfler implies with his guitar that a cat knocks over said milk bottle. It is quite a good test because lots of people have that LP. It can be useful for example if you can hear it on head phones but not on your main speakers. You would know better speakers are required (or the opposite of course) Also a great trackability test for a cartridge. Hearing the breaking glass is not the only consideration either….it is how clear and distinctive it is in the mix. Is it only just audible or is it right there in the alleyway. Also there is a lot going on in that recording and most people just miss it. I mention this as just one test for setting up speakers to achieve all the 3 goals you described. |
I have bought my LP12 with cirkus and lingo 12 years ago. Now it features Karousel akurake Radikal 2 keel Ekos se Mutech Hayabusa and Duo Sutherland phono stage. I had to move the deck out of the wall mount and decided to try the Audiosilente mushrooms. I don’t feel particular improvements nor decrease in performance. My ears may be aging more than I thought. I love the LP12 and I can adjust the suspensions easily and without the need for skilled feddlers. I actually prefer to look after it myself. I have no particular DIY skills. It’s up to the user way of enjoying this hobby. If you are the eternally unsure person about your deck performance just go for a technics direct drive. |
@lewm While you might expect that a dead silence be portrayed by any decent table when placing the stylus into the lead in groove, you might be surprised how rare that experience is. I have heard numerous high end tables that cannot do this 'trick' even though they are set up correctly. All of my prior tables and even my LP12 with Cirkus, could not manage this. There was always a slight noise from the speakers, not complete silence.
@mylogic While I agree with you that the Dire Straits breaking milk bottle is a test, it is a very low lying test. IMO, you would have to have a pretty veiled set up to miss that part of the track. A better test would be whether your system can portray depth, intimacy and scale...which very very few can. Scale in particular is very hard to portray, usually requiring a large space and large speakers with excellent dynamic contrast. In my many years as a hobbyist, I can count on one hand systems that can portray scale, depth and intimacy...all three. Most folks think their systems can portray these things, in reality most portray ( at best) one of the three. |
Pre-groove inter-modulation. Yes that can be easily a case if a heavily modulated track is present perpendicular to where the stylus is tracking. There is some heat generated by the cutting stylus which can meld into the adjacent track….the echo effect you rightly mentioned. l am not talking about this but about a sound (nothing to do with any iner-modulation) that is totally alien to anything recorded intentionally. I am just listening funnily enough and l am hearing this ‘nub’ between every track of Quincy Jones’s soundtrack of ‘In Cold Blood’ RCA RD-7931 (1967) Another example from memory is Manfred Mann’s original soundtrack to ‘Up the Junction’ again from the 60s on Fontana label which was where l first noticed this. Strange but true….. One other thought to share…. l always tell friends to use Dire Straits ‘Love Over Gold’ album as a test record for a whole Hi-Fi system. If You can’t hear the breaking milk bottle in the ‘Private Investigations’ track, your Hi-Fi is not as ‘Hi’ as you think. If that breaking milk bottle is not there, then it is most likely the front end is just not retrieving it. |
Davey, You said you can put your stylus into the lead in groove and there is dead silence. All I am saying is that should be the case for any decent turntable at normal listening levels, because one ought not to hear bearing noise (even though bearing noise is undoubtedly present at some very low level below the signal) with any decent turntable. And of course the Linn is much better than "decent". In regard to Mylogic's subsequent comment, some LPs and some cartridges are more prone than others to pick up what some call "pre-groove echo". Pre-groove echo is often audible at a very low level when the stylus is seemingly between cuts but is really entering into the grooves for the next cut. So that could seem like you are hearing "information" between grooves. |
@lewm Obviously if the record has pressing defects or scratches etc., it will sound. I am talking about a clean pressing that does not have these issues. The bearing of the Linn ( and I think in reality, all turntables) is probably the most important aspect of the whole affair. There is where I now believe one gets the biggest benefit to the SQ. Hard to know this ( hear this?) when so many table manufacturer's are not really concentrating on this aspect. Linn is..and the results are clearly audible. |
Is it noise or is it really there? Not talking about noise from the turntable but from the mechanics of ‘cutting’ a record. Do you find it interesting to hear things between the tracks? l had never noticed there was ‘information’ buried between tracks until l bought my Logic DM100. It was definitely more obvious and there after l upgraded the arm to a Syrinx PU3 and a hyper-compliance Goldring G900IGC.
Out of interest is there anyone who has detected this phenomena? l can only describe it as a very faint subsonic ‘nub’ sound right in the middle of the few seconds gaps between tracks. It’s not on all records but more often found on 60s and 70s pressings. I can only deduce that the cutting engineer physically stopped the turntable at these points (maybe to cue tapes) leaving a short modulation when restarting the cutter. Or maybe he had to lift the cutter and drop it again when starting the next track? That’s the only explanation l can think of.
Interesting l have only noticed this more recently with much older battered ears!
AFTER THOUGHT. Could it be master tape edits (splices) if whole albums were assembled this way?
Any old cutting engineers out there? The noise is similar to the resulting splices when made to the optical soundtracks on 35mm film which l noticed during my cinema projection years. |
Noise once you lower the cartridge onto the LP surface is going to be primarily do to the quality of the pressing and any defects in the stylus shape or tracking, surely not due to the bearing assembly, which noise ought to be way below the threshold set for noise by the stylus and the vinyl. Doncha think? That said, I guess it might be possible to perceive that the noise floor is lowered independently of "groove" noise even though that latter is dominant by measurement. It's actually a complex question. |
@mylogic Your friend was 100% correct. Noise generated from the table is not beneficial. Which is one of the reasons why Linn has gone to significant effort to minimize the input from the table to the upstream components. For example, the new Karousel bearing is certainly a lot more accurate than the very good Cirkus bearing. Accurate and quiet. With my set up, I can put the stylus into the lead in groove and there is still dead silence until the music starts to play. It's a bit unnerving when you first hear this, as one thinks there must be something wrong with the system, but that S/N ratio is important..as your friend was alluding to. |
An old friend of mine, now sadly upstairs and now looking down on us kind of worshipped his Hi-Fi. He never stuck with the same brands and I was always conveniently right behind him when he was upgrading and l bought two turntables. l remember the saying he was always coming out with and on reflection a parable of sorts…. ‘’A good turntable should be seen, and not heard!’’
Please take this in good spirit……l am sure he was just talking about wow and rumble.
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Like @lewm, the AR XA was my first good table. But the arm wasn't so hot. I replaced the AR with a Thorens TD-150, which had a suspension, platter, and bearing very similar to the AR, but with a much better arm. I then got a TD-125 (with an SME 3009 mounted on it), which was nothing but trouble. I had it in the repair shop many, many times, and the electronics were never fixed. Too complicated. The Linn Sondek was a much better approach to turntable design. The basic design (including 3-pt. spring suspension) was the same as the AR and Thorens, but with superior machining and finishing (especially of the bearing).
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Damped suspension The logic bounce l referred to is excess downforce applied to the spindle while playing a record. The sub-chassis will violently bounce up and down and the cartridge will not leave the groove. Also no change in the pitch of the recording playback. The deck will recover as if nothing has happened. That is also true of footfall…..no effect on the turntable, it is quite oblivious to it. The Logic DM101 in its various forms never had damped springs. Any tweaks on that model were due to the scarcity of replacing stretched springs after hit and miss results of sourcing replacements from basic hardware stores. Often a damping tweak was tried to match the characteristic bounce if the new springs were too weak. Of the higher quality turntables circa 70s and 80s l have owned, Garrard 401, Thorens TD124 mk2, CJ Walker 55, Systemdek III and the Logic DM101, none from the start have ever had damped springs. l believe you mentioned a Garrard 401 in your system and were sourcing a new plinth?. My early series 401 (with the flush mount strobe light) was mounted in the huge ‘SME Plinth System’. The plinth base and depth was so big to accomodate the widest and deepest decks. The cover was of similar height to the plinth and designed to take the tallest 9 and 12’’ arms. It became unwieldily in my living room and absolutely dominated it. That was why l parted company with the set up in the 80s…..it was a bad move looking back now! The idea of having two turntables in a lounge back then would have been unthinkable, but now is not too much of a wierd idea. |
Not to beat a tired horse, but when I first read the word "fettler" on this thread, I had no trouble understanding its meaning, owing to our use of the term "fiddling", meaning to mess around with a complex object, and the obvious relationship to the term "fine fettle". Funnily, in American English, we generally don't use "fiddler" synonymously with fettler. That term is reserved for actual musicians who play the fiddle. The Wiki definitions are obviously biased toward American English. Mylogic, What I meant was that the DM101 just based on photos appears to have no damping for its spring suspension, which is generally needed to prevent overshoot and oscillation of the suspension. Hence, I guess, the Logic Bounce that you mention. |
Well explained definition of tweaking and tinkering. Your example, ‘l have a well-fettled LP12’ made me smile….. l expect those with one have had an equally well-fettled wallet over the years if the TT has been incrementally upgraded? Hobbies like this are nearly always a quest, and cost is but part of the journey.
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@lewm The term used in the Old Country referring to a good outcome from tweaking and tinkering is well-fettled. e.g. 'I have a well-fettled LP12.'
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AR XA… l am acquainted with that deck…. And still on some peoples top ten turntables of all time
The damping you mentioned for the DM101 was only a fix for if the springs had stretched. Normally caused if the deck was transported and the sub chassis was not screwed up (to bottom out the suspension) l know this deck like the back of my hand now. Check ‘Youtube Logic DM101 boing boing’ for the famous Logic Bounce. You may need Facebook to access it. |
The Logic turntables never really broke into the US marketplace so that’s probably why you never came across the range. The DM101 was well regarded for its natural deeper bass extension and neutral sound primarily because of its substantial plinth.. I found it not finicky and easy to match a wide variety of arms which bolted directly onto the one piece aluminium sub chassis. My DM101 mk2 electronic was the last in the series and once set up with any arm l mounted it has needed little maintenance, just oil and belts. Logic relied on Syrinx to manufacture their tonearms which was a healthy working arrangement for two small British companies. Logic eventually engineered their own in-house arms and bought in ‘branded’ cartridges (probably Goldring) with the Datum IIS being their most successful tonearm and now highly sort after. I have known people buy other decks with a Datum IIS just to get hold of the arm. Logic fell by the wayside in the late 80s with many saying they over engineered the turntables versus selling price trying to break into the market. They sold them too cheaply trying to gain a market share to survive, and by then CDs had entered the fray. |
I googled Logic. Very interesting spring-suspended TT and very reminiscent of the early AR XA turntable, which was my own first true audiophile turntable, probably in 1970-71. I suppose Logic may have crossed my path at some point, and I just forgot about it. I can say they were not marketed very vigorously in New York City or New England audio stores back then, Seems like the DM101 could be tweaked in a positive direction. Spring suspension could benefit from some damping, or so it seems. |
Yes I had a Linn once with Syrinx PU2 when I was a student. Also had a Logic DM101 for a short period around that time. The Logic was quite good for the money, but the suspension was very twitchy. The Sota Star that followed had a much more stable suspension system and was a sigiificant upgrade in sound quality to both. |
Did anyone ever compare the 80s Linn LP12 with a Logic DM101 back in the day? Five years ago l restored a 1980s Logic DM100 MK2 electronic and made no modifications at all. The turntable just plays records with no fussing or need for ‘fettling’ The plinth is so heavy and robust with a 8mm solid aluminium sub chassis. A unique three point six spring suspension (plus the centre spring for heavier arms) makes this turntable a very good buy. Set it up and just play….. l recently replaced the ‘basic’ fitted Syrinx LE1 arm with an Audio Origami rewired Syrinx PU3. The arm just bolts straight on to the aluminium sub chassis so no separate sound degrading arm board. I have decided to put away all the ‘upgradeitus’ syndrome as this turntable (for me and my opinion only) will be the one to keep.
l would love to know what others know about Logic and their plinth. It appears to me anyway that they very much nailed their plinth design 40 years ago. As far as l know this spring configuration was never adopted by any other manufacturers. |
@dover I have heard a Linn LP12 without a plinth, it did nothing for me. I do agree, the new grommets/mushrooms are also nothing special, having heard that mod as well, i wouldn’t consider them either. |
I’m not disappointed, I’ve heard the later iterations ( $60k fully loaded ) and they are indeed much improved. I’ve often thought about getting another to put my Naim Aro on, for posterity. I also liked the Pink Linn with vector drive some years ago. Try your Linn without a plinth, you can use T-slot extrusions. you might be surprised. No box is without its own inherent colourations. As an aside I can't stand the current fad of replacing the springs with grommets - definitely out of tune literally with that "mod". I hear one note bass with grommets. |
@dover Sorry to disappoint you, but the current LP12 does not fall out of tune, once it has been set up correctly, it stays that way. Linn addressed the problem years ago,
@yoyoyaya The idea that the table needs to be set up by someone who has the know how to do it correctly, is by no means a myth. The tolerances and the design has been improved immensely since you last set up the table, as evidenced by your comment. |
I used the term fettling as follows _ The Linn Sondek is of Scottish descent. Scottish dictionary defines fettling as - II. v. 1. tr. To put to rights, into good condition or working order, to mend, repair; to settle, arrange The best Linn was the 40th Anniversary model because it came with a bottle of 40 year old Highland Park scotch whisky. Perfect way to drown your sorrows when your Linn goes out of tune - again. |
Thank you. Just to explain, it wasn’t the same LP12. I sold my original turntable in a fit of madness five years ago. About two years ago I started to have a yearning for vinyl again. My dealer lent me an LP12 that had been traded in. It was essentially the same as my old turntable, except it had Urika II instead of Urika I. It sounded streets ahead of my old turntable. So eventually after much soul searching, I bought it at a reasonable price. I put the improvement down to the Urika II working so well with my Klimax DSM/3 Hub. In the light of your comments about LP12 fettlers, I do wonder if there might be more to it than that. Of course, there may same other factor in play. Funny you mention bearing oil. I was just watching a video of Linn’s Gordon Inch building a Bedrok LP12. He adds a few extra drops of oil in the Karousel to get exactly the right level. I’ll ask my dealer about the warm up time. Now I think about this, it has been most noticeable since I had Radikal and Karousel upgrades fitted. Also, that coincides with winter.
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I had never heard the word "fettler" until reading this thread. I am aware of the term "fettle", as in the term "fine fettle", which I guess means everything is copacetic for that individual or that object. Wikipedia has several disparate definitions for fettler, only one of which seems applicable to the care and feeding of an LP12. See definition #3 here. And even that definition does not specify that the thing is done well. Is fettler a term adopted by Linn explicitly to refer to a tech who is qualified to work on the LP12? If so, an inept fettler does not leave your LP12 in fine fettle. |
@newton_john Your assumption about the Linn training was my assumption too. That was drastically altered once i heard what the new ’fettler’ was able to accomplish with my table. Not that the old tech was bad, just that there were a few things that he obviously did that weren’t 100% correct. Minor detail things that clearly the new ’fettler’ got 100% correct. ( I can’t explain exactly what these were, but the results speak for themselves). Probably this is why folk in the UK seek out the likes of Peter Swain and others of his experience level. Here in the US, as I alluded to before, these ’fettlers’ are unfortunately a dying breed. Not sure if they are being replaced, but it does not seem so. That is one of the biggest aspects that concerns me going forward with the table, to be very honest.
You question why the table takes a few more sides to come into tune...that is a great question! Maybe it is something like this: My new ’fettler’ showed me that the oil level in my Karousel bearing was not quite correct, it had oil in it, but not quite enough. So, IOW ( in other words) my old ’fettler’ put in the oil, but didn’t have enough experience to know exactly how much was required. He put enough in to not do damage, but that was not quite correct. Perhaps something like this is occurring with your table? |
That’s very interesting. I always thought that anyone trained by Linn could do it as well as anyone else. The guy who looks after me now has 35 years experience. That may go some way to explain why I have enjoyed vinyl so much more recently. Maybe he learned a few tricks along the way. I put it all down to Urika II. Of course, upgrades may have been involved too. Also, I have been puzzled why the turntable takes a couple of sides or more to warm up fully. It doesn’t really sing until the third or fourth album. It was not like that before. |
@newton_john Thanks. I didn't really experience problems with Linn, I experienced problems due to the lack of local dealer support. The gent whom I went to to 'fettle' my Linn is as stated, hundreds of miles north of me, BUT he was well worth visiting as his ability to dial in the table is superior to anyone I have used before, including my old and retired 'fettler'. This aspect is one that I think is somewhat overlooked by Linn owners. There are 'fettlers' and there are 'fettlers'. I never realized how much a true expert in set up vs. a merely competent one, can extract the last bit of SQ from the LP12! Hard to know when this is the case, as I had assumed, perhaps like most folks, that the prior set up was great. The table certainly sounded very good before, but since I have had the chance to hear what the best of them can accomplish, it is somewhat eye opening! |
Yes I got mine at an estate sale did not know what is was had several hundred lp and cd with it.he had to go to a home.im sure my time is comming also.he fell over on it knocked it off and it fell apart.i just put it back together.i sent him pics of all his stuff in service and he was just happy to see it being used.it also came with old krell stuff and I knew that was good.happy listening and I understand the guru for these is in colorado.sounds like a road trip this summer in the corvette.what fun,that alone makes it worth it.enjoy life stay healthy cuz music calms the savage beast.we could have a discussion on the mesolimbic system of the brain but that would be boaring. |
I can only speak as I find. Sorry to hear you’ve experienced problems. Linn are a relatively small company and it’s a big world. It’s bound to face some challenges. Yet, I have a friend in North America who is happy with his local Linn dealer. There is at least one dealer in the UK who has LP12 customers in the US. My dealer just sent an LP12 to Africa. It’s not all bad.
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@newton_john Let me relate something to you...which may or may not be relevant to our discussion, I had a conversation with a Linn rep about a year ago, this person was in Scotland ( because at the time they had fired or dropped their US rep, preferring to rep the line in the US from the UK!!!) . I informed him that in the USA, the distances between states and cities can be vast. Unlike in the UK wherein there are a number of ’fettlers’ within a small distance, in the USA, that is many times not the case. For instance, my old ’fettler’ just retired resulting in the next guy who does this work being about 200 miles north of me...and he is in 90’s!! None of this info was known by the Linn rep. So, when you tell me they have researched their markets...perhaps re-think that statement. IOW, in other words...what you see as the Linn norm and understandable in the UK, may not apply worldwide. ;0) |
“That is exactly what I am saying. If a hobbyist is willing to pull the trigger at a price of $40K or $60K then yes, I am pretty certain that this very same hobbyists can afford a $100K. Otherwise they probably shouldn’t be pulling the trigger on either.” The $60K LP12-50 is history now and it did sell to people who’d didn’t spend $100K. It is a bold claim that a customer with £40K to spend on an LP12 is likely to suddenly decide to lash out an extra $60K on top of that. In any case, these customers are extremely rare. To say that they don’t walk into the average HiFi store every day would be a vast understatement. My dealer said that has never happened to him. Every single one of them is an individual case, so we can’t generalise about them.
“One question...and I think this is maybe where we differ: At what price do you decide that the upgrade cost of the LP12 is a bridge too far?” How long is a piece of string?
“IOW, the cost to acquire the latest and greatest Linn upgrade now puts it squarely in competition with a table that you suspect betters the platform in all ways ( maybe even in most ways)” What does IOW stand for? Not Isle of Wight, I presume. As I have said before, that puts an improved configuration of the LP12 into a new market segment. This can’t possibly mean less sales for Linn.
“My question does assume that you have knowledge of what the competition offers, something that I am unsure whether you ( maybe most UK based Linnies?), or for that matter Linn themselves, are truly cognizant of!” I am confident that most people who have bought a turntable that they are happy with don’t waste time researching hypothetical alternatives. If you’d seen Linn’s factory and met Gilad and the other people there, you’d realise that they will most definitely have researched their markets. If they didn’t do that, they would have come a cropper years or even decades ago. |
"Are you saying that someone who can afford $40K is just as likely to spend $100? I would doubt that – it is a massive jump. It remains to be seen whether the Bedrok becomes a success for Linn. However, the LP12-50 did sell."
That is exactly what I am saying. If a hobbyist is willing to pull the trigger at a price of $40K or $60K then yes, I am pretty certain that this very same hobbyists can afford a $100K for a turntable. Otherwise they probably shouldn’t be pulling the trigger on these LP12’s in the first place.
One question...and I think this is maybe where we differ: At what price do you decide that the upgrade cost of the LP12 is a bridge too far? IOW, the cost to acquire the latest and greatest Linn upgrade now puts it squarely in competition with a table that you suspect betters the platform in all ways ( maybe even in most ways) My question does assume that you have knowledge of what the competition offers, something that I am unsure whether you ( maybe most UK based Linnies?), or for that matter Linn themselves, are truly cognizant of!
As an example of this...again look at what @yoyoyaya posted above. Just one example of many. |
“@newton_john Again, your post is not really my point.” It is hard to pin down what your point is.
“I’m sure you are correct that if a LP12 Klimax owner is currently happy with his table, he won’t be selling it, and certainly not at a loss. Plus, like you mention, the Klimax LP12 is an excellent table.” So far so good.
“But for those who are looking at the upgrade path, as the expense of upgrades increases to the point where the competition looks better and better, then my point is that a consumer who is well educated on what the competition offers and on the turntable market in general, will certainly look elsewhere.” Not necessarily so. As the price of the upgrades increases, so does the performance. Surely, by adding the Bedrok to its range of products, Linn decreases the chances of a Klimax LP12 owner looking towards other brands.
“Whether that consumer will pull the trigger on an alternate option is the chance that Linn is apparently willing to take.” That is just the nature of the free market.
“Personally, and I think I have mentioned this before, at the price of the Bedrok upgrade, plus the cost I have already attributed to my Linn, I would be shopping the used market...and maybe even the new market at higher prices.” And personally, I will be sticking with my current turntable and maybe do the Utopik for Radikal upgrade when it comes. But what you and I would do is not necessarily representative of the market in general.
“I do feel that the Linn LP12 Majik has a very good appeal to the new buyer who is looking for an entry point into the high end market of tables.” Agreed. The Majik LP12 appears to be Linn’s loss-leader to pull new people into the LP12, so they have more owners to sell upgrades to in future. There’s a much larger pool of potential buyers at this level than there is for turntables as expensive as a new Klimax LP12.
“BUT, at $40K plus for the LP12 Klimax with Bedrok..or even at the $60K that is/was being asked for the LP12 50th, then as a consumer,if those prices are affordable, I would also most likely not have an affordability issue with a table that was say $100K. This brings into question a factor that I question whether Linn’s marketing arm has anticipated??” You’ve lost me here. Are you saying that someone who can afford $40K is just as likely to spend $100? I would doubt that – it is a massive jump. It remains to be seen whether the Bedrok becomes a success for Linn. However, the LP12-50 did sell. |
@newton_john Again, your post is not really my point. I’m sure you are correct that if a LP12 Klimax owner is currently happy with his table, he won’t be selling it, and certainly not at a loss. Plus, like you mention, the Klimax LP12 is an excellent table. But for those who are looking at the upgrade path, as the expense of upgrades increases to the point where the competition looks better and better, then my point is that a consumer who is well educated on what the competition offers and on the turntable market in general, will certainly look elsewhere. Whether that consumer will pull the trigger on an alternate option is the chance that Linn is apparently willing to take. Personally, and I think I have mentioned this before, at the price of the Bedrok upgrade, plus the cost I have already attributed to my Linn, I would be shopping the used market...and maybe even the new market at higher prices. I do feel that the Linn LP12 Majik has a very good appeal to the new buyer who is looking for an entry point into the high end market of tables. BUT, at $40K plus for the LP12 Klimax with Bedrok..or even at the $60K that is/was being asked for the LP12 50th, then as a consumer,if those prices are affordable, I would also most likely not have an affordability issue with a table that was say $100K. This brings into question a factor that I question whether Linn’s marketing arm has anticipated?? |
