LinLai WE 300B or the LinLai Global Elite Permaloy 300B tubes ?
I presently am using Sophia Electric 300B mesh-plates and find them to sound good in general. I originally used the Sophia Royal Princess 300B's and really loved the sound, however in my experience, reliability was really poor and for the price, it wasn't any fun trying to get replacements. I'm getting ready to order new 300B's however would like to know if any of you have had experience with their WE 300B or their flagship Elite Permaloy 300B. Thanks... John
@gsm18439, Interesting how your Takatsuki to KR audio 300b experience parallels my Takatsuki to EML. As much As I enjoyed and respect the Takasuki there was no looking back once I got the EML XLS. And as you note with your KR I did gain in dynamic performance (Even though the Takasuki itself dynamic). The high End eastern European 300b is just built in a heavy duty manner. Charles
A couple of quick thoughts. I also had unacceptable tube life from the first generation Elrog 300Bs, but sonically they were a cut above every other tube I tried in my Frankenstein amps, including Black Treasures and the EML XLS. I did not evaluate the Taks in my amps. I do think that it is time to acknowledge that Thomas has addressed these issues, although testimony from a user who has found the new Elrogs to be reliable in the Coincident amps would certainly be welcome. I've moved on from 300B's, but had I not, I would give the new Elrogs a try. They are that good!
In watching many threads and forums over the years the only 300B tubes that don't seem to have durability issues are the EML, WE and Shuguang Black Treasure. Don't recall ever seeing a single failure of any. I'd say Psvane has a pretty good track record, heard about a few failures, all in early hours. In that case I'd suggest Psvane reliability is subject to tube retailer. I'd expect LinLai to be similar to Psvane. The rest seem pretty close in reliability. I'd like to see new Elrog durability proven.
As to my own experience over about twenty years with wide variety of tubes, signal, rectifier and power, the only failures I've experienced were KR and Fullmusic 845 tubes, Chinese with exception of Fullmusic, and NOS tubes from all over have been just fine.
Thank you to Charles and other's input. And Charles, thanks for more in depth impressions of EML.
I don't want to hijack thread, but for Charles, and anyone else using Coincident Statement pre. I got the MK II upgrade along with further upgrade of Amtrans rotary selector, well worth it!
@sns, I've had my Coincident Statement Line Stage since 2009 and it has been an absolute joy for 12 years! I was unaware of a rotary (Assuming volume control?) upgrade. Charles
@sns, I believe that if you were to take a chance on the Elrog you'd really like them, beautiful sound. No audio product receives 100% agreement when it comes to listening impressions and preferences. @brownsfan finds Elrog superior to the EML XLS , I do not. Different ? Yes but not better as each has its respective strengths. We both are seasoned listeners with discriminating taste (Fair to say I believe). In other words we know what we like, simple as that. Bottom line, you can not go wrong with either genuinely fine 300b tube. Charles
Reliability and durability are an important consideration in my tube purchases. At this point EML front runner, Liquidsound's review of LinLai will have major bearing on ultimate choice. As he previously mentioned, and I experienced with LInLai 101 tube, build quality appears to be superior to Psvane, does this result in greater reliability, durability than Psvane? And then sound qualities matter a great deal.
MkII standard upgrade includes Nichicon Muse cap replacement of stock Rubycons in mine, volume transformer upgrades and rotary selector, yes volume selector upgrade. Above and beyond, I custom ordered Amtrans volume selectors, far superior to the standard upgrade volume selector. I know because I was going to diy the volume selectors, standard volume control upgrade still pretty cheapo Chinese part, Amtrans is jeweler standard build quality, unmatched precision (Chinese $6 each, Amtrans $108 each). Result of upgrades is bit more natural timbre (NIchicon vs Rubycon) and sound stage precision the MkI can't quite reach, solidity and depth of center stage so much improved, result more dimensional imaging.
@sns, Thank you for the additional insight regarding the MK II upgrades compared to my original version. More natural sounding? That’s quite something as what I admire most about this Coincident Statement line stage is its pure and natural character (So pleasingly life like). Well anything (Certainly audio components) can be improved I guess😊. Charles
+1 on Telefunken ECC83. Sounds better than Gold Lion in my amp - more detail. For power tubes, I was using Valve Art 300B's and then found Shuguang Black Treasure at parts connexion for half price. They both sound good, with the BT sounding more refined and better bass. At DIY audio, where I purchased my Elekit TU8600, they speak highly of the LinLai Cossor WE300B. BTW I love the TU8600 - best sounding amp I've ever owned.
@sns , Thanks for the details on your experience in upgrading the CSL preamp to MK II. I've been considering this upgrade since it was first announced, and contacted Israel who didn't give much detail on what sort of improvements one might expect. Did you buy the Amtrans and send it to Israel, or did he order it for you and do the installation. I love my CSL and consider it my destination preamp, so I'd happily part with it for a while to upgrade it.
Certainly, Mki version doesn't have problem with timbre, its just that with Nichicon Muse vs. Rubycon just a bit more, when you hear you'll know. The greatest upgrade is the more precise sound staging, imaging. Can't recall if he or I brought up the Amtrans, I had seen them at Partsonnexion, and having seen the stock cheap Chinese volume selector in mine up close and personal I did speak to this directly. He responded the Amtrans would be big upgrade, I didn't even care to ask him about nature of upgrade, or any of MkII upgrades in order to mitigate expectation bias. Anyway I ended up purchasing Amtrans through Israel. I will say the upgraded volume transformers are what you're spending your money on here, I imagine Amtrans add precison to some degree. The cheapo Chinese selectors are real junk plastic and metal, Amtrans precision parts! Once you touch and see them you don't want anything less. I believe the only place you can get Cossor versions of LinLai is ebay, they aren't intended for US market, not sold at LinLai factory official US website. Which means they are lesser quality if what LinLai themselves claim, which is they only send their best tubes to North America, all marked only as LinLai, no Cossor.
@sns, I was aware of the MK II upgrade when introduced a couple of years ago. I had no interest at the time due to my complete satisfaction with my MK I original model. I could see where an improvement of the volume control transformers could make a difference. The capacitors you refer to, are these in the power supply chassis?
Interesting comment about the stock vs Amtrans volume control knobs. I used to chat with Israel occasionally but it has been quite awhile ago. I may have to get in touch again. I plan to keep the Statement line stage forever (LOL) so may strongly consider the MK II upgrade. Thanks again for the insight/feedback. Charles
Two caps in PS, two in signal chassis. As for improved timbre, I'd suggest some or most of that improvement comes from both volume transformers and Amtrans volume selector, although having used Muse caps in prior mods in other equipment I can assure they are a very natural sounding electrolytic cap. Both VS and VT in signal path, have bearing on timbre or coloration of the entire pre. I'd also suggest the Amtrans is superior here to cheap Chinese upgrade (stock Chinese volume selector even cheaper than upgrade) unit here, much better metallurgy and no dialectic. Amtrans precise volume tracking is likely responsible for much of the improved sound staging and imaging I'm hearing, doubt the Chinese unit can replicate this. I did mention this particular aspect of improved performance to Israel, he concurred, much of this improvement due to Amtrans.
@sns, Yes I'm definitely getting the message that the Amtrans volume control is a worthwhile acquisition. What specific selector knob should be ordered? Does it come directly from Amtrans ? I have a local tech who could make the swap.
Is this a pretty straightforward job or are there issues to be aware of? Now I'm curious about the volume control transformers and what options are viable. upgrades. I really don't want to ship the 2 chassis unit to Canada 😊. I'd be happy with this these 2 modifications. Charles
@sns, Okay I see (Your earlier post above) that Amtrans is available through the Parts ConneXion . What specific part number/model? Thanks my friend. Charles
BTW. . .back to the discussion about 300b tubes. . . Recognizing that there is some rebranding, I count 23 manufacturers of 300b tubes, each with as many as 4 different varieties.
Thanks Gary. It's been some years ago but I think I purchased my Takatsuki tubes through them. Yes, guilty of straying off topic but @sns was providing some highly appreciated information and perspective. Charles
Charles,I originally was going to diy the Amtrans, wiring of MKI volume transformer different than MKII, so not so straightforward. Israel did send me wiring illustration for Amtrans to MkI trans. Ultimately decided I wanted the upgraded transformers, so sent to Israel.
The proper Amtrans are the single gang switches at Partsconnexion, the other they show is stereo switch. I can't give you any info about the transformers, I'd have to tear apart quite a bit to possibly get part number and manufacturer, may be proprietary part as well. If you decide to not diy, perhaps you could send control chassis only, save some shipping cost.
As for going off topic, yes, sorry, The problem is Audiogon no longer allows private email.
@sns, I'm going to email Israel. Ideally I'd like him to ship me the transformers (Amtrans volume control from PartsconneXtion or Amtrans directly) and I'll have them installed locally. Will see how it goes. 12 years I've owned the Statement Line Stage and Frankenstein mono blocks. They're permanent residents in my home😊. Charles
OK... I almost left this discussion as it seemed to take on a new life on amps, preamps, upgrades and the like. However, I guess sometimes things go that way naturally... In my opinion, it's better to start a new thread so others can tie-in to that and comment/learn. That said... I have about 250-hours on the LinLai Permaloy 300-B's and they have opened up nicely. While they sounded good right out of the box, They seemed a bit edgy in the treble area to start out. Now, they have in a word, blossomed... The treble has smoothed and is not edgy yet retains great accuracy. No sibilance. I have always liked my First-Watt SIT-2 solid-state amp for it's terrific detail, triode-like sound and BIG expansive soundstage. It's my most-favorite solid-state amp. I had most of that in the past with the Sophia Princess mesh-plates except for the expansive soundstage, and while the Sophia Royal Princess was a definite cut above the Princess's in all respects, the LinLai now surpasses them. The LinLai's now match my First-Watt SIT-2 for that big soundstage. I like it ! Also the LinLai's have a great realistic sounding mid-range which in my opinion is where the rubber-meets-the-road so to speak. One other area I've discovered with the LinLai's that I'm having trouble describing is the music definitely has more "body". There seems to be more weight or "heft" to the music over-all and not just in the bass-area. Another nice quality. One other thing I've done is checked the bias after about an hour of warm-up every time I've done my listening and at first, I was adjusting, re-checking and fine-tuning. Now in the last several times I've checked, it appears to be spot-on. I always reference the line-voltage when doing bias adjustment as I adjust based on nominal voltage. Luckily, where I am in Florida, I've seen the line-voltage vary between 118V and 121V with it setting at 120V most of the time no matter what time of day. That in my opinion is good... I know listening is a subjective experience and with each piece of equipment/component, your "individual mileage may vary", so to speak, however with my SET-up, this is what I'm hearing. I don't know how much more these tubes will change with more hours, however I like what I'm hearing, so far... More-to-come...
Appreciate the review. Funny, but I could almost repeat word for word my impressions of LinLai Elite mesh plate 101d. Could it be there is a 'house' sound for LinLai Elite.
I'm now much closer to pulling the trigger on Elite 300, the only remaining question, what about durability? It would be nice if LinLai as a new player in high end tube market offered a two year warranty. I can only offer my Linlai 101 has well over 500 hours, so far so good, just had them tested the other day. For what its worth, I periodically have all my various output tubes tested (three different amps and two preamp). Pays off not having failure that may take out various components. I can say all the Shuguang, Psvane and this single Linlai have always checked out, no failures.
Thanks Guys for enjoying the impressions I've found with the LinLai Permaloy 300-B's. I'll do another impressions review after I get more than 250-hours on them (like at the 500-hour mark) to let you all know how they sound in my system. Now I'm in a quandary ! Do I go for the LinLai WE replacement 300-B's or go for the U.S. WE 300-B's ? The U.S. ones are notably more expensive, however they do have a 5-year warranty on mfg. defect only. So if one fails, or I guess doesn't meet "spec" they may replace it. By the way, Sophia only does a 1-year warranty (at least the last time I bought) if you pay the higher price. Perhaps I'll wait a little while longer to see how these Permaloy's sound and last. I want to get some of these expensive 300-B tubes before I retire and I'm on a fixed income ! ! ! By the way, I had thought of purchasing a good tube-tester, so I can keep an eye on my power-tubes. I may first ask my local audio group if anyone there has one...
@sns, I honestly believe that you’d be happy with the Lanlai Elite 300b. In regard to tube testing I had my EML XLS tested last week. This pair was purchased new in early (JAN/FEB) 2013 and have been used heavily in my Coincident Frankenstein 300b SET.
@liquidsound, my friend has an Amplitrex tube tester. Reference scale for transconductance/gm is 90-100= "test like new" 80-89 = "Great" per this particular machine.
My two EMLs tested 83 and 85 respectively. Impressive I thought after over 8 years of heavy usage. Lots of tube life remaining. Not inexpensive tubes but they last quite a while and have superb sound quality. Charles
The Amplitrex is a terrific tester. For my purposes, the best thing about it is that it is idiot proof. You select the tube type to be tested from a menu, the machine tells you which socket to use, it warms up the tube and then begins the testing. The testing is done at full power , which is the best way to detect weakness. The tester displays real values, not just some arbitrary scale, and also shows the specified value for a new tube to compare the value. The displayed values include emission, transconductance, and noise. The machine also provides—“good,” “bad,” etc.— evaluations. If you hook it up to your computer, it will also trace the tube.
I like my tester a lot. There is no looking up and setting values on the tester, as is the case with something like the TV-7, so this cuts down on mistakes. I’ve noticed that it is a hard grader—tubes that test extremely strong on a TV-7 may not grade as well with the Amplitrex.
. " I’ve noticed that it is a hard grader—tubes that test extremely strong on a TV-7 may not grade as well with the Amplitrex."
Yes, agree with that assessment. My EML XLS pair tested very well but this was not the case for my 12 year old 6EM7 that originally came with my amplifier. One was poor and the other just okay. I will replace them with a new pair. It's been 12 years so no surprise. Charles
I would like to add a few comments here as well. I have to agree with Charles's assessment of the Emission Labs 300BXLS as I have had a pair for 3 years now that have been used extensively and have never so much as given a glitch. They also sound absolutely sublime, and in the testing of many different 300B tubes, I find them to be the best of the lot in terms of the true 300B sound. I liked them so much that I purchased another pair to use in both a push-pull and PSET amplifier. I also have some of the newer generations of the Elrogs (after Thomas Mayer took over) and they were sent to be in trade from a customer. He has been using them both in a push pull 300B amplifier for 3 years, and I have now been using them for about 2 months (and putting lots of hours on them). They have so far proven to be reliable. If this is the same across all Elrog's current manufacturing, I cannot say, but I wanted to give my personal experience here. I am also very curious about LinLai's tubes and have read (not very much) but what is out there- and it's been nothing but praise.
@aricaudio, Your comments in regard to the Elrog 300b is definitely good to know. I believe that Thomas Mayer really has solve the previous issues with this tube (Actually the entire line up of their tubes) and they have proven reliable since his taking ownership 5 years ago. I say this because I no longer read or hear about tube failure since his arrival and company control.
Aric I strongly suspect that the Lanlai is at least as reliable as the Psvane and quite possibly more so, of course time will tell. I plan to buy a pair of their 101D Elite tubes in the near future. I’ve had a very good long run using the Psvane W.E.Replica 101D and the Lanlai may be even better.
I’m not surprised by your experience with the EML XLS . It’s often categorized as a "modern" sound 300b due to excellent frequency extension at both ends of the spectrum and clarity/transparency. Yet at the same time IMHO they retain an organic character and full bodied tonality. If EML made the 101D I’d swoop it up in a heartbeat.
Nonetheless I do have very high expectations for the Lanlai Elite 101D. Charles
It appears Psvane has new Acme 300B tube out, looks like punched plate vs solid plate for other Acme, priced about $200 more than original Acme. Can't find much info out there about this tube, anyone heard it or have more info? @liquidsound, any further developments on LinLai tubes? I'm getting very close to pulling trigger on 300B purchase. Coming down to EML XLS, Linlai Elite or one of the Acme iterations.
Just received 16 WE 300B tubes for my Canary Audio Grand Reference Mono Amps. Waiting for further directions from Canary before installing them. I hope they sound WAY better than the Golden Lion.
@liquidsound, I hope you have a full recovery and zero lingering after effects.
@willgolf,well that's quite the investment but that amplifier deserves top tier tubes. I'd be surprised if you do not notice a substantial improvement with the Western Electric 300bs. Charles
@liquidsound, hopefully you have full recovery. Covid is real and needs to be taken seriously. Recently discovered thread over at whats best forum mostly in regard to Psvane Acme series of tubes, some recent posts popping up about LinLai Elite series. http://https//www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/psvane-acme-series-new-flagship-series.26395/ This makes me leery about purchase of Psvane Acme 300B, even though I've never had an issue with various Psvane series of 845 tubes in two amps. Does this portend issues with LInLai as some Psvane engineers/principals moved from Psvane to LInLai? And its not just the Chinese tubes with issues, I've read plenty of durability issues with tubes from various countries/manufacturers. The EML XLS looks more and more like my 300B choice. My consistent and long term observations of modern tube failures is extremely troubling. It seems the tube industry and amp industry are not settled on some set of standardization. Tube manufacturers blame amp manufacturers for running tubes too hard, exceeding maximum dissipation rates. But then I've seen voltage measurements that show amps with tube failures are running within safe dissipation voltages. And then, why don't I recall seeing a single EML XLS 300B failure? I don't spend my hard earned money on the lottery, tubes seem much like lottery. I understand tube manufacturers not wanting to warranty their tubes for longer periods as no assurance all amp manufacturers design with proper dissipation specs, and/or possible amps going out of spec over time. But I would like to see tube manufacturers add a conditional period of warranty past standard warranty. If tube fails during conditional period, amp could be taken to agreed upon tech and measured for dissipation voltage, if within spec tube manufacturer honors warranty. In thread I linked to above, some Acme tubes are red plating when run within dissipation specs, Psvane claims this is normal. I find this highly problematic!
@calloway, I hope that the new production Western Electric 300b works out fine in your superb Chalice Audio PSET amplifiers.
Tube reliability is a real consideration. I was leaning toward buying the Lanlai Elite 101D. After a conversation with my Coincident Line stage builder (Israel Blume) I’ve changed my mind. He no longer sells the Lanlai due to consecutive failures/issues with 4 pairs that had to be returned.
I’m just going to get another pair of the Psvane W.E Replica 101D that served me well for about 6 years or so. The Lanlai Elite 101D could indeed sound sensational but I don’t feel the need to risk potential reliable problems. The W.E. Replica are more than good enough. The near bulletproof EML experience has spoiled me. Charles
@charles1dad , Yeah, Israel trashed my Linlai 101, he seemed to not know of them when I initially spoke to him, only added he doesn't like mesh plate tubes. He also told me my particular pair were bad, I had them tested on Amplitrex tester after getting back linestage from him, they were in fact not bad. Israel telling stories, likely including mine as failed pair. And yeah, I'd agree the Psvane WE are plenty good, Linlai is just another flavor, I go back and forth.
Power tubes for amps seem to be the vast majority of tube reliability issues. I've been running tube amps and preamps since around 2000, only tube failures I've experienced were KR845 and TJ Fullmusic 845 in Art Audio amp. Not worried so much about pre tubes or drivers in amps.
Thanks to all for recovery wishes ! I don't wish this crap on anyone ! I'm just now crawling out of this tough 11-days of profound fatigue, 100+ temp, achiness, cough and loss of smell/taste ! First morning with no temperature !
Just a quick note about reliability - I've never had a problem with my lowly JJ 300Bs. I've been running them about 10 months. I know they're not considered a top-tier tube, sound-wise. I guess I should consider myself lucky that I can be satisfied with them, since I've never had a chance to compare them to anything else.
At the risk of further complicating the issue: while both Takatsuki and EAT comfortably beat my TJ Full Music meshplates, in my Wavac EC300b there is a strong effect dependent on the recifier tube used. While the EATs prefer to be driven by Tungsol KT66s, the Takatsukis love to be driven by the cryo version of Svetlana Winged Cs. I have experimented with a large range of other 6L6GCs such as JAN Philips 7581-as, Shuguang coke bottles, Tungsols et al but the above combinations win out. The EAT/KT66 combo has better dynamic range for the price of slightly harsher sound, the Takatsuki/Winged Cs major on resolution and timbre for the price of somewhat lesser ooomph. In the world of tubes, trial and error is indispensible
@antigrunge, you're not complicating it at all, sound quality of these tubes has to always be taken in context of entire system. What may sound great in one system may not in another. Even with the reliability factor, context matters, one amp may run tube much harder than another. In post I linked to, most of the amps with tube failures were Line Magnetic. Does Line Magnetic run the tubes harder than others? This is the reason I can't seem to move on 300B tube, reports of reliability and sound quality may or may not apply to my setup. I just know the decision close at hand, heard my Shuguang black treasure with so many variables and evolving system resolution, they are somewhat lacking in natural timbre, everything else really pretty good.
@antigrunge2. "In the world of tubes, trial and error is indispensible"
@sns "@antigrunge, you’re not complicating it at all, sound quality of these tubes has to always be taken in context of entire system. What may sound great in one system may not in another. Even with the reliability factor, context matters, one amp may run tube much harder than another."
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