I'm in that camp - getting cables off the floor works, and to my ears, it's fairly easy to hear the difference. I don't want to debate whether it does or doesn't. I would just like to add some observations for those who have experienced the same. After trying numerous types of "lifters" I settled on some acrylic ones. The porcelain insulators - regardless of coatings - impose a sonic signature on the system. Because they provide an overall improvement, the change they make to tonal balance may or may not benefit your system. Most of the wood risers I tried did the same - improvement, but with an added signature. The acrylics seemed to provide all of the advantages without re-tuning the system. (I have not tried the Shunyata's)
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First of all, lifters absolutely work: I've lifted cables - initially with jewel boxes and edges of books, and worked up to Shunyata's 2nd generation lifters. My room is acoustically great, electricity is great, and the setup is also excellent, so I can hear the 'little things' that some scoff at, most likely because they haven't addressed completely the room, and the electricity, but it's still there to be heard. Depending on what type of music you play, you'll hear it to a clearer degree. Processed music? Won't hear that much. Mercurys, old Deccas, RCA Living Stereo and some other top labels? You should be hearing it if your system's set up right. As to the lifters at Music Direct: they have a 60-day return policy, so this is a win-win for the person considering them. Don't listen to the conjecture of those who 'know things' yet have no experience with the actual genre in question. That's called The Blind Leading The Blind. Try it out yourself. That's called common sense. |
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/1159#&gid=1&pid=7 I made 13 wood lifters for about $15. Used a chop saw, sander and a little stain. |
Geoffkait has just noted many of the reasons why one should give little to no credibility to, or be bothered by, any alleged or imagined audio playback issues caused by tiny amounts of vibration (seismic of simply vibes of bewildered astonishment aimed your way by others) making its way into your home gear heap. Well done. |
I tend to resist generalizations or conclusions since the effectiveness of cables raisers *in a given system* depends on a number of variables: (1) local weather/humidity and amount of static electricity present; (2) amount of local seismic and structural vibration; and (3) which particular cable raisers are employed, e.g, suspended by fishing line from the ceiling, etc. You can also throw in (4) the listening skill and ability of the listener while you’re at it as well as (5) how well integrated the test system is, including whether it’s in absolute polarity, in phase and (6) whether the software used in the test is in Correct or Reverse polarity and (7) if it has been overly compressed. |
Human brains are great, but our ears are terrible. Just look at how much money many of us have spent on getting the best sound from a sliver of diamond scratching across a record, not to mention interpreting a bunch of difital data that is smushed together to make an analog vibration. Many animal would probably laugh at our pathetic hearing if the understood this. |
Funny thing is, I used a crown class d pro amp to good effect until a few months ago. Guess what? That system sounded better with vibration control on the rack, turntable, preamp and speakers. Pro audio gear can show improvements in performance when vibration control (and cabling) is well applied. Pro audio in a performance venue setting shows these improvements less clearly or not at all often because of the high volume often used as well as the large spaces of many venues. Hopefully a noisy crowd too! |
Good post Wolf. Teo claims there is information but cites nothing. His understanding of electronics and acoustics is dubious, and would likely be nil if his sentences could be translated into English. The nice thing is that placebophiles can play with cardboard tubes for little expense and hence low risk of consumer fraud. |
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Some of the biggest audio corporations in the world have demonstrated the usefulness of equipment and cable isolation, from any given vibration. Pioneer used to have this little test bed that had the equipment in what was essentially, an anechoic chamber and isolated from physically borne low frequencies as well. And then a separate identical system, non isolated. Both in the same space, both could be heard one after the other. The differences, sonically, were dramatic. However, many to most don’t realize these effects among all the other sources of noise in their systems. This can be multiplied by their mental position on such things, and possibly even tied to their inability to hear such things. That inability, both mental and or hearing related, may be a stubborn insistence and not really hearing related. The skill of such may be in them, but possibly blocked by emotional positions on such complex scenarios, as emotions are a primary filter that is designed from the ground up--- to defeat logic, and enact primal function as priority override... It can also be a scenario complicated by not being able to mount up the mentality required to commit to making a long chain of repeated single cause aAnalyses of this complex equation. Many things can be at play. These billion dollar plus corporations, like that of Pioneer’s work in this area... do indeed follow these formulae to get to this ’better sound’, but this equipment rarely makes it out of places like Japan, which is many times - their origin point. The products that do reach for the best, in Japan, are Japan release only. Just one example of where and how this scenario exists. The end result is that people, in North America, for example.... don’t see generally the evidence of these major bits of research in vibration isolation, and some people henceforth feel..somehow.. that this is an irrelevant or idiotic endeavor. The reality is that there is plenty of evidence and some can’t piece it together. Railing against such things does not make the railing true, it’s just ranting and railing, nothing more. The brooding and implied pressure of a fluffing might -- attempting to make right. One has to commit to enough single cause analysis and system noise elimination, to get to the point that things like cable risers do make a noticeable change. Whether the change is efficacious or not, and worth the expense of the given components involved, is up to the user. A user who’s hearing mechanism is individual and individually built. Common to us all ... but in neurological refinement - unique. |
pops Don’t cables vibrate when hooked up to a vibrating speaker? Am I missing something :>) You're not missing something, Pops. But the vibrations of the speaker cabinet are not good for the sound, either, any more than airborne or seismic/structureborne vibrations. The only good vibration is a dead vibration. It's too bad Tekna Sonic dampers for speaker cabinets aren't still available. Hey, wait a second!! I just realized I sell a damper for speaker cabinets, transformers, CD transports, etc. Maybe the SR HFTs would be just the ticket for those stubborn little speaker cable connectors....hmmmmm. |
Don’t cables get dusty anyway? I use my trusty dust brush vacuum attachment that sucks very bit of dust off of any cable it approaches, depositing it in a basement bin where I can extract it later and knit a sweater out of it. The last thing I need when vacuuming around my cables is having to put back a pile of tiny cable trestles or duck around fishing wire suspended from the ceiling, unless it's being used for actual fishing (unlikely). |
The world is full of natural vibration that fortunately has so little effect on the performance of sound gear as to be irrelevant to the enjoyment of music. That reality is likely NOT over geoffokait's head, but his head is so encumbered by imagined audio demons it seems likely he can't grasp that concept, or he's simply afraid this could impact his "magic bag 'o crystals" business. |
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Cables, if they’re in the same room as the speakers, will vibrate anyway…lifted or not, unless maybe they’re completely encased in venting ducts packed with spring loaded mattress foam (I’m selling those for $1,552 a linear inch). I won’t put little bridges under my cables because I think it’s simply another lame pseudo tweak, and vibration to a normal degree (earthquakes, nearby mortar explosions, and starting an unmuffled motorcycle near your rig all would qualify as "abnormal" vibration) does’t bother anything except the anal retentive brains of those who firmly think it does…do you realize there are cables in your speaker boxes being subjected to massive amounts of allegedly dangerous vibration? Those poor little defenseless wires saying "Hep me…hep me"... |
Hercules, yes. While out for my morning walk, he was the first thing to come to mind. Just notch out a space for the cable at the top of the world and you’re set. Or, if classical music is your thing, busts of Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, etc. can hold those cables high with their period coifed hair. Heck, you can even use garden gnomes. All the best, Nonoise |
Nobody said do the cable lifters before room treatments or isolation or anything else. The devils in the details. A lot of seemingly preposterous or insignificant tweaks add up to a big deal. It all comes down to where youngest off and what you’re trying to accomplish. I realize a lot of folks here are satisfied with where they are and have taken a break from the action. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Obviously cable lifter, like fuses and such are for audiophiles who wish to go behind the usual ho hum. By as far as cable lifters being controversial, I beg to differ. They're not. If anyone things cable lifters are controversial just wait till something that's really controversial comes along. (Oh, it's coming!) Then you'll be begging for mercy. |
I personally believe there are certainly more important things to focus on to realize system improvements than 100.00 fuses and keeping cables off the ground. I have witnessed some philes directing too much attention on factors that realize less benefit than other tweaks that IMO would be more beneficial. Room treatments, speaker placement vibration isolation would be among them. In my experience, at the recommendation of my dealer as recommended emphatically by the speaker cable, ic manufacturer a physicist BTW for whatever it's worth, just do it says he. I did and clearly noted greater clarity it wasn't a leap of faith to hear this . Quite simple, out of wood to match my equipment rack. Didn't cost me anything but time. Enjoyed your comments teoaudio. |
I made about 13 cable lifters for about $15. I used some clear 1 x 3 boards cut into 4 inch sections. Three are used for each lifter and I held then in place with 2 GRK 1 1/2 inch panel screws that have a built in washer. These are similar to the ones on the Michael Green Audio site. A little sanding and stain and you have a cheap alternative to expensive lifters. |
Zar .. Common thread here. "Nay sayers" and proponents. 1 major distinction in the diagnostic is whether you have a system of sufficient finesse or sonics to distinguish the benefit. Personally I recognized the science for the benefit (by way of 1/4" static zaps) but I chose to experiment w/the wooden 2x4" model on carpet .. works great! Is 4" to high or to low? Got wooden floors? maybe entirely different. All I know some aspects sounded better with the cables lifted and oriented with some thought to signal paths. NaySayers quoting science simply are ill informed about the simple electro dynamics of carpet static (again wood floors not tried). Proponents often forget that while "tweaks" make a difference, we often forget that the person we may be responding to is trying to milk the most out of an Optimus?Radio Shack receiver & speakers (vs a BAT/Essence super system). BUT the enthusiasm/pursuit for better musical enjoyment is no different .. as I journeyed thru Sylvania, Pioneer, Vector Research, SAE, VSP Labs, Counterpoint etc, each step had more critical signal paths that respond to delicate changes in signal. Those changes (along with alittle wine, a great recording) and badabada bing you got a great listening session that leaves you smiling inside. |
@2channel8 - exactly. I think there are many products that could very well do what they claim, but seemingly exorbitant prices make many people sceptical and many outright hostile. My solution is to DIY and, if I notice an improvement, then I MAY consider a commercially available product. @randy-11 - why? Why do you spend so much time knocking products and making absolute claims about things that you don't seem to actually understand? Insulation on cable increases capacitance, which stores and releases a charge. It's not a stretch theoretically that this stored and released charge in a signal cable could mess with the time alignment of the signal, thereby 'smearing' it. And it's equally plausible that anything the wire insulation is in contact with could further affect the capacitance of the cable. While these effects would be incredibly small, there's no reason to assume that no one could hear them. Also, if indeed there was no scientific basis for something, that doesn't immediately imply that it is impossible. Data suggesting something doesn't work, however, would be a valid reason to suggest something doesn't work. Right now though, you come across as an anti tweak fundamentalist. I'm curious if you've tried cable elevators or if this is just another thing that you've decided can't possibly work and must save us from. I wonder, is it tweaks you have issues with, or it is it the high prices that disgust you, tainting the product in your mind? |
2channel8, I just popped back to see where this silly thread has gone and think you might have the most insightful post of all. High anxiety and OCD runs rampant in society, with sellers guilting folks into buying products of little or no utility. It is nowhere worse than among audio-fools. The "fuse-heads" have got the syndrome to a greater degree than most others. I think for some folks, the propensity for self-delusion is rather unbridled. At any rate, I like the way you think. |
I also agree that if one hears an improvement, who am I to interfere. However, what does incense me is charging $389 for 3 little blocks holding a rubber band: https://shunyata-uk.com/product/accessories/df-ss-cable-elevator/ That is simply predatory! They probably cost closer to $10 each to bring to market. The same goes for $100 fuses. I don't think you could spend $50 mass producing a fuse if you made the filament out of metal harvested from meteorites. Does someone who pays $2,000 for a pair of 1 meter ICs really think that the manufacturer is only asking for a fair profit based on his cost? Or that it's the biggest impact they can make for that amount? (Or if anyone deserves to be that self-indulgent while others are hungry.) Equally guilty, if not more so, are the retailers who sell them to us, along with real, quality products. They serve to legitimize this standard of wastefulness and convince us that if we don't buy in, we are simply not advanced enough in the hobby. Get anything you want for your system, just don't pay ridiculous prices and contribute to audiophile-inflation, please. |