Koetsu Rosewood Vs Rosewood Signature Vs HANA UMAMI RED advice please
@tomic601 because I never thought about it and I have auditioned, albeit in different systems, so I can’t compare the ones I mentioned. I listen to a lot of classic, rock and Spanish guitar. I need a fast-dynamic, yet warm and open, with nice definition cartridge. I have listened to a couple of "metal" bodies and they sound to cold for my taste. |
Congratulations on your new TT. I’ve installed a Kuzma CAR50 MC on a 4Point11 which had a Van den hul Colibri on it. The Kuzma is actually a very good cartridge - up there with the Colibri - I would say more resolving than a Koetsu Rosewood, unless you went for the Rosewood Signature Platinum. CAR50 is very even handed - it would be a safe option for your system - I have 2 pairs of Tannoys and know your speakers well. Owner listens to a lot of rock, blues, jazz. Ignore the CAR40, the CAR50 is in another league and better value despite the higher price. By contrast the lower priced Air tight cartridges are not as resolving as the CAR50. My Sonic Lab/Phasemation are also worth looking into for the 4Point11. The VDH cartridges can work with the Kuzma 4Point11, but they need to be adjusted by VDH for the higher mass (18g). For me the Umami is not in the same performacne level as the CAR50/Rosewood Signature Platinum. |
I can give you a little of my perspective in that I have been running Koetsus, am very familiar with Kuzma's products but cannot comment on other aspects. I have been running two different new fresh authorized stone bodies on Kuzma's original Airline arm (which has a similar, locking VTA tower off axis of pivot point or in the case of the Airline, the remaining body of the arm and rail on which the air bearing travels). Both of these cartridges use the platinum magnets and I was told by someone who has one stone body and a Rosewood Platinum (whatever it is called) that the latter performs in the same league as the stone bodies. I don't know about the lower priced versions of the Rosewood, though I certainly remember the original that came to the U.S. The stone bodies present a rich, full bodied sound with amazing bass (linear arms are not noted for bass) that is full of character if it is on the source material,, e.g. a double bass solo, drums- I listen to a lot of post-bop small combo. I did try one of the Koetsus on a 9 inch 4 Point, an arm I like very much (though much stripped down from the longer versions), and did not like how it sounded-- perhaps it needed more adjustment, but that cartridge sounded beautiful out of the box on the linear arm. Oh, I had a Steelhead-- so that was one other thing we shared at one point. Good luck. My experience with Koetsu has been very positive- not the old technicolor midrange and roll off of the originals. |
I have a Kuzma Ref 2, with a Ref 313 VTA... Perhaps not quite to 4 Point 11" level, but similar mass and an arm I'm very happy with. I was in the same price range as you, and have an MSL Hyper Eminent on the way. I bought it last week. I spoke with someone who has experience with the MSL Eminent EX (base model) and the Unami. He said the latter is more of a detailed, forward sound than the similarly priced base MSL. The gold body Hyper is actually described right on the MSL site as being a bit more forgiving. It's supposed to be very dynamic, but not the last word in detail like the higher priced Ultra Eminent EX. Please keep in mind he likes the Unami very much, and his comments were in direct comparison to the base model My Sonic. I find Dovers advice really interesting, as I have also heard great things about Phasemation. I must ask Dover, what LOW priced Air Tight cartridge are you referring to? The base model is around $8K US. (-: |
Was told Kansui/Kuzma may not be a good match. Dover said: "The VDH cartridges can work with the Kuzma 4Point11, but they need to be adjusted by VDH for the higher mass (18g)." The Kuzma arms are medium mass, aren’t they. Mine is 13 grams, and I thought that was true with the 4 Point 11". All of the posters here strike me as a seasoned, been there/done that group. I’d make a bet we all try to steer clear of the Hi-Fi sounding cartridges, and value tone with a nice fleshed out human sound. I know that’s what I crave. I was also considering Koetsu and EMT. I’ve owned and enjoyed the former, and still own and enjoy the 75. But I thought it was time to try something different with the MSL. While I’m sure their five models share a family sound, it’s my understanding that they do differ. Particularly the two gold body offerings. Again, there is a pretty good description on their website. Wayne Garcia recently reviewed the top MSL Gold model along with the Koetsu RSP. Other cartridges of interest, like Etsuru and Sumile, were simply out of my price range. I hate to pile it on, but two others options I found interesting were the Musikraft Nitro, and top line Charisma model. |
Dear @astolflor : The Rosewood Signature Platinum is out of your budget. That Hana is very good especially at its price but exist inside your budgets other alternatives with " better " performers. Here two brand new cartridges by Benz Micro and Dynavector, both excellent performers. I owned/own both: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisad9ed-benz-micro-lps-brand-new-cartridges https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisac350-dynavector-drt-xv-1s-new-cartridges and here two ZYX cartridges in as new condition. Zyx is really well regarded cartridges : https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisab75b-zyx-universe-ii-x-sb2-cartridges https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9babj-zyx-ultimate-omega-great-new-product-cartridges You can’t go wrong with either. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
@astolfor I am using the 12" TA1000 arm on the Triple X https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;image=20142 Switching back and forth between the AT-Art9xa , Hana SL and the Umami Red, there is no comparison. The Umami is stunning in its presentation and clarity of soundstage. 2X better? Possibly 3 or 4X. I love the Hana's to begin with. Don't see too many with AS tables. Good Luck! |
@audiosaurusrex
, Thanks. Are you a HANA dealer :) I am half German, so I love precision and I was able to visit the factory and see what they are doing so I decided to give it a try. @rauliruegas thank you for the links I really appreciate it. Call me pharaonic, but buying a cartridge for someone I do not know scares me too much. I did it before and the stylus look just fine, but the stone was glued over 2degs off so there was nothing I could do. I reached out to the distributor and he would not take it under warranty, although it was new. If there is anything wrong with the cartridge I want to be able to get someone to help me. $4K is a lot of money BTW how difficult are the Koetsu to align? it looks like the body hides the cantilever and it will be a pain to work with. |
@astolfor Haha I am not a Hana dealer but I am German/Polish. I find many things to like about German electronics, I own an Octave amp, RME Dac and the Triple X. My speakers though are US made Spatial M3 Sapphires which I absolutely love love! Are you in Germany or just visited there? My mother and grandparents lived in Munich and summered in Rotach/Tegernsee and have been many times but would love to visit w/Gunther and Andreas one day. |
@astolfor Yes, Koetsus are a bit harrowing to align because of the big boxy body, and they tend to ride fairly low - overhang positioning is OK but it's a little challenging to see enough of the cantilever to align it. Usually the cantilever will be well matched to the outer body edges, if you want to "trust" that (ignore the gold metal cover plate, which is often cut slightly off-center). I use a SMARTractor and yeah - sometimes I just give up and use the body as the cantilever reference. I had a Mint LP which was the best I've ever used for precise alignment, but broke it a few years ago :( To be quite honest if you use a Simple GeoDisc to adjust overhang and align the Koetsu body to the grid, 9 times out of 10 it will be 99% as good as a painstaking session from the SMARTractor or whatever. I've never had a Koetsu sound "off" from the GeoDisc, yet. |
@ghdprentice
I hear you, I am thinking on sending it to Wally Engineering, they have a cartridge analysis service for $400 and all i will have to do is to set the right VTA, VTF and Azimuth |
I have a Koetsu Rosewood Platinum, and it is very sensitive to adjustment. It sounded good out of the box, but after careful adjustment sounds positively glorious. I think that you are well advised to have it set up by a pro, but make sure that he doesn't set azimuth electronically, because that usually means matching crosstalk, and for better cartridges, that can be a serious error. There is a recent thread on this topic. If I may ask, which SoundSmith cartridge did you have, and why did you dislike it? I ask because I was considering one. Thanks in advance! |
I am a regular reader of information made available by an individual based in Germany who has a vast experience of using MC Cartridges. Koetsu, Urushi, SL, Mutec, Hana as well as many other types, all having undergone demonstrations in various Head Shell materials and regularly used in A/B comparisons on a Multi-arm Techdas TT. This person has commenced using the Brand SKYANALOG and has been working up through the range, the reports are very favorable for these MC's and comparisons to High End Cart's are showing the SKYANALOG as a worthwhile consideration, especially when the price is quite different. It could be worthwhile having a look into one of the Higher Up the range Models to see if there is an appeal to your needs. |
Speaking of the Koetsu Rosewood Platinum, has anyone else noticed that in their latest Recommended Components issue The Absolute Sound used a photo of the wrong cartridge in the summary review of the Koetsu? They also made a mistake with the top D'Agostino amplifier, showing its name and photograph and then proceeding to give a review summary of a Boulder amp. Their proofreading has never been as good as Stereophile, but that was inexcusable. |
Hey @terry9 - I have not heard the Rosewood platinum (and you have the full diamond cantilever no less) but I was led to understand that this cartridge got you a lot of what the more expensive Koetsus offered. For me, I won’t declare it an absolute in any sense, but the stone bodies compensated for weaknesses elsewhere in my system so I’m now at a point where the system is the best I've had it since I put the core components together in 2006-7. I fire it up and enjoy the sound. So many great records out there, so little time.... |
Dear @astorfor : I can see that you really don’t read the overall information in the cartridge links I posted to you, look: the ZYX ultimate Omega is posted directly by the USA exclusive distributor SoraSound. The Benz Micro and the Dynavector links were posted for a seller with an impeccable feedback after hundreds of sold cartridge operations. As I told you, any of these cartridges outperforms the Rosewood Signature. I owned the RSP and yes this is at the level of those cartridges and in some specific sound quality performance a little better and in others a little inferior but very good performer. I’m not trying to diminish the Rosewood Signature but you ask for cartridges inside your budget. All the cartridges in those links comes with a high discount over its retail price, are cartridges over 5K one of them around 9K and the owner of that ZYX has 100% satisfaction in its feedback. I don’t care at all, it’s your money but if I was you I never buy the Rosewood Signature against the other ones even the Umami is better. But that’s me. As I said good luck. R. |
Hello @whart . Good to hear from you! About the K line, I have heard several people say this as well, that the KRSP is the sweet spot. Mulveling says that the difference between KRSP and stone is not large, but that the difference between boron and diamond cantilever is the place to spend. If I have rendered his views correctly. Anyway, love the cartridge, but with the cost of rebuilding the d/c, I’m kind of thinking about finding a second stringer. Hence the question about SoundSmith. Are you sure that your stone bodies aren’t simply revealing what was already there? "Cause I don’t think that my KRSP is making up for anything - just the opposite - it doesn’t suffer error gladly. Every time my adjustment gets finer, so does the sound. Latest adjustment was a panzerholz wand for the tonearm. I hope to have my take on an air bearing design up in a few months, and then maybe I’ll be in the market for a Kuzma like yours! |
@rauliruegas, first let me apologize to all for my English, English is not my language by far, especially when it comes to HiFi. I am sorry you are assuming that I did not read your post, becasue I have read and considered every one of the posts. At no time I questioned the sellers integrity. I just don't judge people in general, much less those who I don't know, many times to a fault because I always assume good intent. As I mentioned before, I bought a cartridge that the stone was not properly aligned and could not be adjusted for and the manufacturer and distributor would not help me with the warranty because I did not buy from an authorized dealer. At the end, I thought that I had saved about ~$1800 but ended losing ~$7800 because the cartridge was deflective, at no fault from the seller because it was a manufacturing defect that could only be seen using a real microscope, and had to be disposed. The distributor gave me a significant discount in a new one, but a cartridge that I could have bought for ~$10k from an authorized dealer ended up costing me almost twice as much. At a later time I will buy one of the cartridges you suggested but from a dealer. PS: I do not believe you don't care, you responded and I appreciate your comments as I do everyone else's. I ask because I want to hear about other's perspectives and learn as much from other's experiences as I can before I make my decisions. You are correct, it is my money and my decision on what I buy; but my decisions are influenced by what I learn from asking questions, and considering other's perspectives. I might decide something entirely different from what any of the people that commented wish I would had, but that does not mean that I do not appreciate their perspective and that their perspectives have not influenced my decision. They did. If I do not like the cartridge I buy, then I will come back explain what I do not like about the specific cartridge buy another one based on what I learned and from the feedback I get from here. I will never say that one piece of equipment is not good or better, I comment on my experience which will be entirely different from others. I have read some of your posts on other threads and it looks like you know a lot and like cartridges. I hope you continue to share your experiences. |
@terry9. I had the
Sussurro mk II, and it was not a good match with my tables in my home in Spain. The highs sounded a little too crisp like in your face, in the big orchestra music it got a little overwhelmed and I could not get the right load. I needed something a little over 550 but not quite 750, one setting was too bright the other was a little too muddy(?) I played it in a Graham Phantom Elite Tonearm in a Bergmann Galder turntable, I also played it on the Odin tonearm. Now I have a couple more flexible phono stages that probably would have help the cartridge, but I trade it in for another brand. |
OP you have said what I wanted to in a far better way than I could have and English is my first language! Buy what you know, like and trust. No other person’s inflated sense of knowledge matters, its all about you and your truths! Best wishes in your search and success in your quest. I have always preferred what Koetsu's better cartridges do for music to all other cartridges I have heard or owned in my 40+ years in high-end hifi. |
Thank you Astolfor. That’s exactly the information I needed. Much appreciated. It seems that our tastes are similar. I don’t like high frequency to dominate either. To my ears, the Koetsu RSP d/c gets it just right: very clean, very pure, a joy, especially with voice. Even Barber’s Adagio for Strings is a pleasant experience, as is Arvo Paert’s Fratres (violin arrangement). |
I ended up buying the Koetsu Signature and Etsuro Erushi Bordeaux, I have the Gold and I love it so I am hoping the Bordeaux and the Rosewood will have me covered for my house in the US. I was going to buy the ZYX Ultimate Omega but I contacted SORAsound.com and I got an email at a little past midnight, telling me that if I buy right now now they would give me a new cartridge instead of a used one, waive fees and whatever else. Is this how they operate, or they woke up in the wrong side of the bed and a little upset? What difference does it make if I buy now or in a few hours? |
If you want a discount (special offer) you must act quickly, if you want to buy at retail price you can take your time. What’s wrong with that? I can’t recall any distributor who can give special prices to a stranger. Anyway, I bought my ZYX stuff long time ago, best prices, superb service, immediate reply on any email, Mehran shipped my orders before I paid :) |
I did not ask for a discount, I only asked for a quote because his site did not have a way to buy or I would have bought it without any discounts. I don't usually ask for discounts. In the rare occasion I ask for the the sellers bottom price, if I like it I buy it if not I go on somewhere else. I exchanged emails with them and everything is OK, I am glad you had a different experience. All is good. |
@mulveling, I have the WallyTractor and Analogmagik, I hope that I will be able to set it up right. like you, I am good with 90% to start with, but then I always like to fine tune after the cartridge gets run for a few long weekends of music or a couple of weeks of daily listening. if I can’t do a good job on the Koetsu, I will send it to a pro to set it up in one of the heads and put the Etusru which I know I can dial it in. Are there any trusted installers in the US? |
Congratulations on buying the Koetsu Redwood signature. For the last couple hours I have been listening to mine. It is really a wonderfully balanced and musical cartridge. It balanced detail with natural, musical sound. It really does an excellent job. My last cartridge was a Van den Hull Frog, which was good for my overly detailed, trebly old system but this one is really a wonderful balance for a high quality neutral system. |
