Klipsch K Horns (the new AK6)

I once heard a pair of K Horns in a very large room and was totally blown away by the sound. The bass drum was making my heart hurt with less than 10wpc.  It is a sound I never forgot.  

If you ever hear a pair of Khorns in an appropriate room being driven by good amplification and a good front end, you will realize that most people that poo poo them have an axe to grind. They are capable of world class sound if you have any sensibility at all about you.

Oz

Man, so much anger and bitterness over a piece of equipment built for a hobby we supposedly love.


I have never heard a Klipsch speaker in any environment, but am surprised and hopeful for this company and their continued production of the Heritage line. I realize the web and thus this forum, is a worldwide venture, but to see an American company building 50+ year old designs the size and weight of the Khorn or Cornwall in America is respectable when we're collectively b!tch!n@ about job losses to overseas production. While the price may be steep for some/most, the manufacturing location and lower number of units sold (compared to Best Buy inventory), seems reasonable in a hobby where people drop four figures on copper wire sprinkled with fairy dust.


I've read the Stereophile review and like some have posted, am surprised by the described bass deficiencies. For a cabinet of that size, with a 15" driver in a loaded cabinet, I'd expect bass to be the last item of concern. I wonder what would happen if Klipsch pushed the design a little further into the future by incorporating something like a Hypex amp with DSP to drive the lower cabinet. As a fan of larger drivers, I'd still love to hear a pair in their current configuration. Kudos to Klipsch for keeping these speakers alive and their builders/designers employed.

Actually I agree with you regarding dynamic drivers with horns or electrostats. One of the worst offenders  I have heard to date are the Sanders speakers. No doubt people should buy what they like but the Khorns to me have always been significant underachievers. 

jsautter, I can, w/o question, improve upon some of the flaws, inherent in the new Khorns, as I have, and many other Klipsch devotees, have learned to do. Nothing, cannot be improved upon, be realistic.....

It is all about trade offs and compromise, which I hear in EVERY design, at EVERY price......If I am not mistaken, George owns a version of ML Monoliths ( likely modified to the tilt, knowing George ), which I have much familiarity with. Just as I do not like many horn hybrids, because of that " discontinuity " between the horns and the woofer boxes, I also hear this in the Monolith, this lack of coherence, if you will. I would never come on here, and bad mouth the design, as it makes trade offs, and I know it can be enjoyed by many. I respect many listeners here, and elsewhere, because if they find a system they are happy with, that, is all that matters. I might not agree, that the system this other person finds so enjoyable, fits my specific criteria as a listener ( as I say all of the time, it is personal and individualistic ). It is childish and meaningless, to make snarl comments as Georgie seems to do, and he does it often, and everywhere. But, it is humorous, the majority of the time, this back and forth, with nothing ever changing. Enjoy ! MrD. 

The only way to improve on some of the Khorn flaws is to redesign the speaker. I know of no serious enthusiast that uses DSP. This doesnt mean that these people dont exist, I just dont know any. I dont believe for a moment that DSP doesnt have a significant downside. As George points out  why would you  put so much expense into Khorns when more viable options exist which are better than the Khorns in the areas in which this speaker excels? I think that you guys are hanging on too tightly. 

jsman,
I would love to hear them. I must be really special. What amp are you driving them with?

@mijostyn,
That is exactly what I have done a few years back!!! Tri amped and using the Xilica 4080 DSP to control everything, best sound I have ever heard from my Khorns!!! BTW they are also upgraded with 2" wooden tractrix flared horns and 2" BMS 4593 ND mid drivers and Fostex 91A tweeters.....

No idea, no mater how much extra $$$$$$ anyone throws at them with correction electronics, you not going to be able to correct all those flaws, you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. 

No George, The K horn has certain advantages the big one being efficiency which is the major reason it became so popular in the first place. It does have problems that have been insurmountable for decades but now they are not. So, why not try and correct them and see what you get? Many digital electronics leave absolutely no fingerprint on the signal and once you are in the digital domain you can do all sorts of stuff without any distortion, none. I can go in and out of 24/192 all day long and you will never hear the difference. You can not have the best subwoofer system without a digital cross over. You can not make your speaker image pristinely or accurately control your systems frequency response without full range digital room control. Without the ability to manipulate your system digitally you are in the stone age. Most of the recordings you are listening are either digital or were modified digitally. Any vinyl re release of an old analog recording that magically has no tape hiss, how do you think that happened? So if I use that tech to make an old speaker that magically plays loud as hell with a 300B amp image correctly what is the big deal.
This hobby is supposed to be fun and it is always fun to consider possibilities. That is how we advance the art.
 I’m starting to sound like Socrates.

Mijostyn why would I want to throw all that expense and musicality saping electronics into a speaker trying to correct it,s flaws, that at 15k it should have. Now that,s being totally i*****c !

Reminds me of some other speakers I owned for years and loved. Tannoy’s.  They also don’t measure well which is why they spec the frequency response at -6 DB. 
 Measurements definitely don’t tell the whole story. And as far as Bass goes quality means a lot and horn loaded bass is definitely better quality then ported.  If I was buying a pair of these I would go into it knowing that I had to add subs crossed over at around 60 or 80 Hz, preferably horn loaded. 
 In fact at this point in the game I really wouldn’t run any speakers without subs. 

d2girls Klipsch makes alot of lo-fi these days but they still make some stellar sounding speakers.  Many great companies are offering lower priced products. 

George, and I suppose you have triamped K horns with digital cross overs and phase correction. Please do not make comments on stuff you know absolutely ZERO about. 
I use room correction and digital cross overs (on subs) on very large ESLs. I even run my ARC phono amp through a Benchmark ADC as every thing is done in the digital domain. No body has ever described my system as sterile. Not once. The most common comment from non audiophiles is, "it's like being at a live concert!"  Since the amps are not visible, they are under the speakers in my shop most audiophiles ask if I am using Tube Amps. One would not believe that the turntables were digitized. I had to turn the gain down on the Benchmark to prove it to him. His conceptualization of digitized music changed permanently that day.

Cheers,
Mike  

onhwy61, mr_m - bingo..

"The loudspeaker requires corner loading for proper use, yet the Stereophile measurement were made outdoors."

For a K-horn THAT makes no sense. IMO.

The loudspeaker requires corner loading for proper use, yet the Stereophile measurement were made outdoors.  I don't imagine the frequency response graphs represent what the loudspeakers would sound like in actual use.

Thanks for the link to that article George. I enjoyed it.
Mrdecibel, I too am happy with what I have - a few different amps and a pair of vintage Klipschorns that have been in the family for 40 years and situated in a room with double brick walls and corners.

Although retired from the industry, I still visit, now and then, audiophiles in their homes, as the word has spread of my background. A comment made above, that the new Khorns are not for serious music listeners, is hogwash. Some of the " happiest " people I meet ( happy with their systems ), are people with Heritage speakers. When I visit folks with Vandys, Thiels, Maggies, ML, ( and others ), they never seem to be happy with their systems, and they do not know why. Many of these folks have been to my place, and truly loved what they heard. An I to assume, the folks in the Asian markets, are not serious listeners. Go on line, and do some research. Horns, horns and more horns, many of them Heritage. As I have said many times, horns ( Klipsch ) are not for everyone. Same with tubes, ss, and it goes on, and on. Discovering what you like in a reproduction system, is foremost, number one, and building upon that, is second. I made my choice. I am a happy listener, as serious as anyone else, and I never question my speaker choice, as many others, in fact, do. Let us all be a " music family ", get along, and learn from one another, rather than bash each other for what we feel sounds good. I recently purchased the live, double cd set by Steve Winwood, who I am a fan ( it was used by a reviewer recently ), and I cannot imagine my system sounding more satisfying, or engaging, as it currently does. I am not suggesting it cannot be improved upon, as I have been around the block hundreds of times, but, I listen, and listen, and listen some more, never once feeling, what can I do, to make it better, unlike the many folks whose homes I visit, never happy, never content, with what they have. I feel my loudspeakers are a primary reason I an enthralled, daily. 50 years, and still, enthralled. Hope you all have a great day, and, Enjoy ! MrD.

While I can sympathize with many of the aspects (i.e.: flaws) pointed out in the thorough measurement section by John Atkinson on the K-horn AK6’s, below quoted paragraph in particular is instrumental I believe in exposing a bias for non-horns that fails to acknowledge limitations inherent to this speaker principle as well:

I wasn’t too surprised by the Klipschorn’s limited low-frequency extension despite its size. I was reminded of the impact Acoustic Research’s first loudspeaker, with its relatively small sealed enclosure and "acoustic suspension" woofer, made in the mid-1950s. "My measurements showed that my little prototype had better bass and less distortion than anything on the market, yet it was one quarter the size," wrote AR’s founder, Edgar Villchur, adding "I thought, ’This has got to be the future of loudspeakers.’" (footnote 3) It was.

I’m sure Mr. Villchur was invested in promoting an invention of his that catered to a majority of buyers to whom looks and size was a primary concern - including most current audiophiles, it would seem - while at the same time claiming superiority in sound reproduction from his miniature design. In other words, he’d like to have his cake and eat it too - and so Mr. Atkinson in his consent - but you don’t shave off size down to a quarter followed by a massive lowering of sensitivity involving plain physics without compromise - end of story. Giving critique in this case of the K-horn is only fair when it’s worth pointing out, but notably Mr. Villchur in his praise of what became the AR1 "listens" to his measurements only; perhaps it’s worth reading through the last paragraph of Mr. Dudley’s review conclusion:

I found in the Klipschorn AK6 an imperfect loudspeaker that satisfied many of my long-standing longings and a couple I didn’t know I had—for amazing sound way off-axis, and for big, beautiful pieces of old-school audio art in my listening room. The AK6 also seems to offer exceptional value: for the technology, woodworking, and sheer size it offers, $14,998 for a pair of these is a steal. No one with a taste for realistic playback, and especially no one with a taste for low-power amps and high-sensitivity speakers, should miss a chance to hear these.

To reiterate: ".. a steal." Surely there’s something to treasure with these speakers at a calling price of $15k/pair, but you wouldn’t notice it focusing blindly on Mr. Atkinson’s measurements and comments nor the parrot squeaks or the ardent disciples of his in this thread (or simply K-horn/Klipsch Heritage haters). Lastly the K-horns in their latest incarnation aren’t solely representative of horn speakers. It’s called listening, folks, with your ears, and knowing there’s compromise in any venture.

My Heresy III "Capitol Records" edition (meaningless relative to other Heresy IIIs other than the "special" ebony finish that looks like dark purple) pair are built like little tanks, and if you knock on the sides you get nothing more than a bruised knuckle.

In my initial opinion, the new Klipsch Heritage line seems/feels cheaper than the old stuff.  Things feel more veneery or plasticy than the older stuff and definitely not premier multi-thousand $$$ quality finishes.  If you knock on the sides of the Forte iii, you still get a hollow sound showing there's little to no engineering done on the interior of the box, yet you're paying for it.

Maybe this doesn't really affect the sound, fine, but it doesn't feel like a premium product and I'm a klipsch fanboy.

George, behave yourself. No one mentioned class D amplification in this thread....:-)

but it would take a lot of amps, an electronic crossover and DSP.

What happens with all that then is "sterility" with what seem to me, no harmonic decay, too much electronics digital and analog between the source and the speakers, I’ve heard it so many times with DEQX type manipulated systems, "lifeless sterile music" a bit like what class-d does.

Cheers George

You have to put this speaker in context. Back in 1960 the most powerful amps all tubes was 90 watts. In order to get realistic volume levels you had to resort to something like the K horn and back then they were the ultimate speaker and they stood alone on that pedestal for almost a decade, long enough to permanently imprint themselves in the minds of all audiophiles alive at the time. We all dreamed of getting K horns not to mention they are handsome loudspeakers and fit nicely into many rooms. In this day they are not the speaker for serious listeners. Humans are very sensitive to phase and volume. It is how we locate danger. The phase aberrations in the K horn prevent it from imaging correctly. I would love to correct all that and see what you wind up with. Like I said above I bet it would be one fine speaker especially for low power tube guys but it would take a lot of amps, an electronic crossover and DSP.   

I'd be very surprised if anyone would buy these relatively gigantic speakers for 15 grand, and after moving the furniture around in their ballroom or airplane hanger would sit there and say, "these suck." I'd bet these buyers know what's what with The Big Klipsch and like the things regardless of the "measurements." A big pile of wood...cool...and I don't even care what they sound like as I simply like the fact that they exist as a current thing.

all george did was comment on the horrible measurements of this loudspeaker. it seems like its the klipsh defense brigade who are here in full force waving their colors who are the emotional ones here. George just stated facts, straight and simple.

You’ve got it for $15k they measure miserably, I even owned Klipsch’s, the "defence brigade" are very vocal about their big boxes, that to me just SHOUT!!, save for the Forte as I mentioned were to me their more "musical" one.

Cheers George

all george did was comment on the horrible measurements of this loudspeaker. it seems like its the klipsh defense brigade who are here in full force waving their colors who are the emotional ones here. George just stated facts, straight and simple.

So this is where all the angry people hang out?
Cool!

georgehifi,
No I'm not you mother, but she should have made sure that you studied your grammar.
Just a few posts earlier, mrdecibel also noted your frequent criticism of horns. You may have liked some in the past but you don't like them now, and you take every opportunity to criticize them. Who do you think you're kidding? Sorry Georgie, I'm not going away. 

Because theyre -6db at 40hz and with a 220lb speaker with huge bass bin you'd expect fullrange bass.

I was surprised in Art Dudley's response to the K-horns as "not having enough bass output." When I had heard them at a dealership the last thing I would say about them is they are bass deficient. If anything they sounded a bit mid bass ripe. But not annoyingly so. As for the comments about the JBL's, they sound ok, but If I were into a pair of horn style speakers, I would take an ancient pair of Altec Model 19's over those JBL's. Restored of course. For what it's worth, I'm 65 years old, been in this hobby for 50 years and have very trained ears. IMO. My high frequency limits are about 14k. Anything above that, bats and dogs should worry.....

Yep if I had the right space I would value owning these and do what it takes to nurse them to perfection. 

Forget the specs, measurements, etc., etc., etc. To this 59 year old, they are, without peer, THE coolest looking speaker ever. If I had the corners, they’d be in my house. It’s unfortunate that the review used what I think is black ash for the photos. Ok then, back to the sniping.

Roy Delgado, the fellow who worked along side PWK, and the guy now running things engineering wise over at Klipsch, has stated many times in articles, that he would keep the original Heritage designs intact, as they are wonderful designs, and still, as jsautter has stated above, successful sellers after all of this time. Also, to keep the legacy of PWK going. I never found any 2-3 wpc amp, to drive any of these models, properly. Definitely got volume out of them, but nothing to write home about. I know George is not a fan of Klipsch, nor horns for that matter, but I think that is fine, because variety, and individuality, is what this hobby is all about.  Have a great day, everyone, and, Enjoy ! MrD.

No surprise that georgehifi started a thread trashing them. He's a well known horn hater.

Really!!! shows just how much you know, I owned and lived with pairs of La Scala's, Heresy's and a pair of Forte's, the Forte's to me were the most honest and musical. 

By the way George, you should learn when to use "their" and they're".

What are you now my mother, go away you silly little man.

I wonder if some of you would respond as aggressively if someone insulted a member of your family or kicked your dog. I find it really funny that you take negative comments about your equipment so personally. 

I too doubt the new Khorns will measure much different than the older models and most likely wont sound much different either. Why would Klipsch abandon or radically change a design which has been successful and is so ardently defended?

 

I have heard many products that measure horribly, but sound excellent, and many products that measure extremely well, but did not sound favorable, to me. I just turned 65, and every birthday, I treat myself to a visit with my audiologist, as well as conducting my own testing. I am not the emotional one, but do defend my positions often. I have never accused someone as being 1/2 deaf, as you have, nor, made the claim that my hearing is better than others, as you have, on these pages. This tells me, and others, quite a bit about you. The fact that you do not hear a coherence issue with your speakers, does not mean they do not exist. I do not believe, you know what to listen for, when it comes to coherence, and audio products, in general. It takes years of experience, trial and error, and an educated ear, to develop these skills. More importantly, it takes a lot of time, to figure out what goes with what, to achieve the system that makes someone happy. You are not there yet, as you posts indicate. Time to grow up, and, relax. You are a very angry, hostile, uptight gal, which you once admitted to, and you even stated you were working on it. Enjoy ! MrD.

I want to remind everyone of something I read somewhere on audiogon about high-end systems and $100k speakers.  They STILL don't sound anything like the real instrument, band, voice, orchestra, hall, room, etc.  It's all manufactured colored sound.  It's only a matter of which color you like best.

I could remind folks, that JA also indicated that the cabinet resonances he measured, would likely not be audible with music playing, although, I believe, they can still be improved. Most wood bodied musical instruments vibrate, just to be clear. d2girls, I have heard your speakers, and, imo, they are not better than " my " Lascalas, I can assure you. Specifically, coherence wise, in the region where the woofers and horns, intersect. And again, you heard a pair of the new Khorns, to make this comment ? YMMV. Enjoy ! MrD.

If I am not mistaken, in the 1st paragraph of JA's measurements, he states that he took the measurements, while the Khorn was on a dolly, in AD's driveway. Not that it matters. JA owns a pair of Altec 19s, and feels they are wonderful, if you read many of his columns. They are not even a full range horn, as an early example of a horn hybrid. An excellent speaker, but does have many flaws as well. As I write here, I cannot help but think, the tremendous influence PWK has had, not just at the Klipsch company, but with so many other horn manufacturers who are using folded horn designs. Those of you who know me from my posts, know I go way back with Klipsch, as a fanboy, and modifier. They are easy to modify, and with these modifications, the inherent flaws can be eliminated. I have not seen, nor heard, a speaker product, at all price ranges, that could not benefit from a modification or two, to bring it's sq performance to a higher level ( and not just speakers ). My 1st introduction to Khorns, was at the home of a music teacher / choral director of mine, and I was blown away. I wasn't quite 10 at this time, and it was during the time my dad had AR3as, which were wonderful to me. That experience captured my ears, my brain, my heart, and my soul. There was no turning back for me. It was during this time that I realized my dad's Fisher 500C, was not adequately driving his ARs. He purchased, with my recommendation, a Sansui 881 Deluxe, which brought the ARs to life, and I, acquired his 500c, to drive my Klipsch Cornwalls ( I bought them from my teacher ). Over the years, I owned so many other designs, plus, being in the audio business from my late teens, and on, I appreciated all the other speakers ( equipment in general ) I had available to me. Being around, and involved, with live music, I realized, there was a lot of " hifi " stuff, but listening through my CWs, it was now music. And, to shorten this up, moved into my own place at 19, got married at 25, bought my 1st house, with Khorns in perfect corners, had a son six years later, moved to a different house, sold the Khorns, got me Lascalas, with a pair of Janis woofers, and was happy again. I still own Lascalas, which I believe is my 7th pair ( sold the others ). Did I mention modifications ? Damping horns, bracing cabinets, upgrading crossovers.....yada yada yada. Sorry for my rant....last thing. I do not remember everything from my past, and do not want to get into why, but, anything, audio related, I remember. Enjoy ! MrD.

I've had Klipsch speakers for most of my life including the La Scalas, Cornwalls, Chorus II, Forte II, CF3 (excellent speaker), and many others.  I would say that if you've never experienced a Klipsch speaker the way it was intended, then you're missing out. Kinda like driving a fast German/Italian sports car.  You hear and feel the excitement without totally losing refinement.

Now, not always!  Sometimes those horns annoyed the crap outta me sounding honky and brash.  But that was normally a terrible recording or me running low res mp3s straight from my laptop.

However, at $15k, Klipsch better refine the crap out of the Khorn and use top quality everything.. No phase issues with front panel resonances.  Did they not test this?  

Btw, I had to brace my La Scala side walls as they resonated pretty bad. 

Perhaps you people that have never actually heard the speakers in question but give your comments freely, should listen first.  Anything you say if you don’t is merely speculation on your part and isn’t helpful. I have heard many products that measure poorly yet sound incredible.