I'm interested in what people who have heard the speaker feel about it. I currently run spatial M3 turbos and have an all tube analog setup ( line magnetic, hagerman ) with an oppo 105 being the digital front end.
Previous speakers have been acoustic zen, reference 3A, Maggie 3.6, and triangles. I am more concerned with a huge immersive sound stage than I am with pinpoint imagery. I have a big room and have plenty of space between the back wall and my speakers if I need it.
@jbhiller Thanks for the offer, but even with detailed photos, quite frankly, I'm unlikely to attempt these modifications. I lack two necessary things at the moment - time and patience. Maybe one day, as I'm sure the mods would make these speakers even better than stock.
There’s no question in my mind that the CW IV crossover can be easily bettered with more substantial parts. The caps and resistors are run of the mill. Careful here--I’m not saying that leads to run of the mill sound. See my post on modifying the Carver Crimson 275 amp. Bob used some decent and some dirt cheap parts in it. The coupling caps in that thing were the size of my pinky fingernail. They are inexpensive and not of good quality. Can they sound ok in a good circuit? Sure. Same thing with Klipsch CW IV.
I’m not saying folks should do this to the CW IVs. But, I will venture to say, and I’ll bet DonSachs would likely agree, many folks will question what he and I have done here while they are out buying very pricey power cords, interconnects and so on. This upgrade will best all of that in my humble opinion.
My CW IVs are about 100 hours in or so. They sound glorious. VCap ODAMs are really special caps. They almost sound like the cap is out of the system.
No, I am a tube amp, preamp, and phono builder, not a speaker guy. I have a pretty big list of things to build. I just do those other things for myself and really don't have the time for youtube or social media. I really wouldn't want to be responsible for someone destroying their speakers and voiding their warranty if they watched my video, but they didn't know what they were doing. Or having to answer multiple inquiries on something that isn't even my product. So I stay out of the limelight.....All I will say is if you know what you are doing you can improve this speaker considerably without losing any of the things you love about them.
@donsachs Have you ever thought of YouTubing your Cornwall upgrade process? I'd love to see the step-by-step action from removing the back through putting it back on after all the mods.
For me, mid horn design and construction material extremely critical, Tractrix design and wood construction. Exponential metal or plastic horns cannot provide natural dispersion or timbre. Tweeter and mid drivers need to be in proper physical alignment for speaker time alignment, improves mid and high frequency balance .I have both mid and tweeter horns on separate baffles for optimum toe in or out, major improvement for sound staging, imaging. Improved crossover parts also improve timbre, sound stage and imaging.
Stock Klipsch Heritage greatest inherent quality is incredible micro dynamic expression, sense of live performers in room intoxicating. Resolution and transparency wonderful as well.
I understand some of my mods would not be easily applicable to a consumer market loudspeaker. Still, I'd like to see a Heritage state of art model; an ultimate expression of the basic design. As Don stated above, a speaker that does all the things stock Heritage does, only does it better. There really is no contest, modded Heritage is my final loudspeaker. I don't say this lightly, have never called any piece of audio equipment my end game, this is the single exception in over twenty five years as audiophile. I'm not saying stock Klipsch Heritage is not a fine speaker, I understand the enthusiasm. Matched with sympathetic partnering equipment, inherent limitations can be minimized. I use mine with 845 SET, 300B monoblock SET and EL34 push pull, all wonderful, I'd next like to try 2A3. I'll also reiterate I've not heard latest Heritage, I'd hope they've improved since earlier models.
Let's just say if the reviewers had heard the speakers with far better crossover parts in them they would have been blown away. The speaker with far better crossover parts, damped horns and woofer frame, proper isolation from the floor... it is not even close. The stock speaker has wonderful dynamics and the reviewers loved them. That said, most reviewers noted that it was the dynamics and tone that they loved and they put up with the sort of B+ grade for imaging and separation of elements in the sound stage. The modded speaker does everything it originally did, but the sound stage and imaging are vastly improved as well as the blackness of the background and separation of elements in the mix. It becomes very good at all the hifi stuff, and retains all of the things that it did well, but it does them better. There is just no contest.
Thats just the thing about the new Heritage, they love good electronics. They reward you with better sound when you make the right choice in amplification. I was a with a non audio enthusiast and stopped by a Klipch dealer to pick up an accessory during work. We ended up listening to the Cornwall with the little Luxman 10 watt EL84 integrated amp. That combo sounded scary lifelike , he was blown away . He had never heard anything quite like that in a home listening environment
The new heritage series need make no apologies, they are that good. Low powered tubes make them shine. But I am gobsmacked by how good the high powered Allnic amp I just bought makes them sing. Holy cow I wasn't expecting the CW IV to sound like this with an amp upgrade, but there it is.
I’m in the camp where I believe that mods would help, but I don’t have the knowledge or time to dig into learning how to do this myself. I wish I could easily tackle all the mods that have been recently discussed. Maybe someday in the future.
That being said, if you have not heard the recent Heritage line, maybe it’s worth a listen. And if you do, and you’re experiencing timbre issues - as I initially was - then try a different amp. A low power tube amp really made the difference for me.
sns, I don't think that there are too many people who don't believe that modding leads to improvement, but just like in anything else, there are many people who just purchase something and use it the way that it is. I also think that there are some that are simply afraid to try because they don't feel that they are able to do modifications. It can also be that they stretched their budget just to buy the speakers and now can't afford to mod them even if they had the inclination. My Dad was very financially secure, but he grew up poor, and he would never think of doing such a thing. Anything that he used in his life , whether it was a suit or a sink was always "good enough" to him, and esthetic considerations had no meaning. I wish that I was like him, because I would be much richer. I'm always looking to improve the looks or performance of things that I own and use.
I don't get Klipsch Heritage line. Some believe the stock speakers just fine, others have need to modify. As for myself, I'm in the mod camp, how anyone can put up with their timbre anomalies is beyond me (other issues I won't go into, timbre by far the worst). Klipsch should listen to the modders, institute some of those upgrades in factory versions. Most of these mods wouldn't require steep price increases, and put Klipsch in higher echelon of loudspeakers. Heritage line has some real inherent advantages, not taking advantage of them in stock form. Haven't heard the latest Heritage models, so I can't comment on whether Klipsch improving, but continuing mods lead to same conclusion.
As for the Klipsch purist. Do you believe the modders are experiencing real improvements, or is it delusion?
I have to do my binding posts as well. I am sure I will have to pull the woofers one more time because as I recall, there is very little service loop so you cannot do it from the rear. An extra inch or two of wire would have made it possible. I will get to it eventually. So @jbhiller , have you got 50+ hours on them since the crossover upgrades?
@roxy54 , I finished that today. Wow. I should've just done it when I had the speakers open and apart. There was very little of the Audioquest wire they used to wire them to the posts available to strip and solder.
From past experience with other speakers that I upgraded myself, it is worthwhile sonically to replace the binding posts even if they aren't flimsy. I'm sure that they're brass, and you'll be happier with solid copper. There are copper binding posts that aren't very expensive.
You will be shocked-and I do not use that term lightly- by the improvement you will have by adding an external DAC like an Ares. You may even find you can spend some time back with your CDs. Try some XRCDs by JVC. Best sound I've found on digital.
Crossovers: I've now completed the crossover upgrade, including all caps to VCap (with exception of that 60uF linked to the woofer output) and Path Audio resistors.
Dampening: I've also damped the tweeter, midhorn, and bass ports. After knocking on the speakers and testing vibration, it seems Klipsch could've added some mass internally too, but since I'm not an expert I didn't want to fuss with that too much. That said, I did put Dynamat on the internal floor of each unit. That area was ever-so resonant. I could easily tell that the bass firmed up after placing Dynamat on the floor of each unit, as my REL subwoofers had to be readjusted.
Sound: Don is right--it doesn't take long to hear the improvement. Let's see after 100 hours or so.
Finally, a couple of notes.
--Binding post Setup. These are just silly. They are fussy, inexpensive, and my Wharfedale Lintons ($1500 with stands) have way better posts. Why Klipsch? Why? This is a $6k speaker. I don't believe you really need to go all out here, but quality is key to a good fit and to them holding up. I actually broke one of the bolt-posts when reattaching a nut, and I was tightening them just past hand tightened. Terrible. So, I'm going to update the binding posts next. I really didn't want to do more, but these are just silly toys they used.
--Crossover Tips. As Don had indicated, you need to ensure the VCap ODAM bodies don't touch anything conductive as they are conducive too. I started by applying high grade silicone tape (electricians use this to cover high amperage lines). However, I got a bit nervous about anything touching so I tore it off and started over by wrapping each and every capacitor; peace of mind. I was more concerned about this than gluing caps and resistors down, as I have tight welds on the leads.
--Patience. Patience is a virtue here; none of this was difficult. Going slow will reward you. Don't do it if you're tired, moody, hung over, having a bad day, etc.
I'm seeing caps, resistors, dampening and binding posts as all being substantial upgrades (with the first 3 affecting sound). Klipsch should make a signature version at $8k. Now, I think that I see what is the difference between Klipsch and Volti.
The PathAudio resistors have been ordered. I'm close to pulling the trigger with Chris at VCap.
I've damped the high, mid and bass ports. I've managed to use my existing Auralex Subdude II isolation pads under them--they actually fit even though measurements are deceiving. The Klipsch platform is underneath and narrows the dimensions by ~1.5" each way so the Auralex work.
I think with the VCaps and Paths, plus this other stuff, I'm closing in on Volti's clarity and beauty. The CWalls already sound better.
By the way, I know some may disagree, but from a subjective perspective I think VCap and ClarityCap make superbly fine caps.
Thanks so much Ozzy! I was curious to know if it was a larger horn than the one on my Epics. As it turns out, the size is the same, although I realize that the throat design on the new Cornwalls is much more advanced.
Hi I got the pathaudio ones from hifi collective in the UK. They have FEDEX for about $30. Or mail... They had the values. I would wait until you can do it all at once. Spendy indeed if you don't have OEM accounts, but if you are keeping the speakers it is worth doing in my opinion.....
Great information Don! Yes, I find the hardest part of the surgery to be the put back—placing things just so can be tricky and when done right it looks easy. Deceptively easy. Parts Connexion is out of one of the Path resistors I need. That will curb my spending for a bit longer!!
A few crossover tips from a guy who did it and learned a lot from doing the first board so the second one is neater and cleaner:) VCap ODAM caps have conductive bodies, so make sure the cap body cannot contact the leads or the inductors. Some sort of insulating tape is good in just a few spots where it is tight. The V in the VCap label points towards the output side of the cap. Yes, they are non-polar and it really doesn't matter, but if you are being anal, that is the correct way. I doubt you would hear a difference if they were all mixed up though. Bend the leads with finger pressure, not a pliers. Solder hot and fast, but you knew that. I found it much easier to dry fit the caps, then put a small cable tie base and zip tie on the cap, dry fit again. Then peel the paper off the base and I put some goop adhesive on the board where the cable tie base touches. Then put the cap in and pull down gently to snug the cable tie base to board, solder leads. I let the board dry for an hour or two before installing in the speaker and those caps will never move. I also really felt the pathaudio resistors were a wonderful upgrade as well. They removed the last trace of brightness. With the VCap ODAM and the pathaudio resistors the speaker retains all the things you love about it, but there is more subtle detail and no brightness. I twisted the drain wires of the resistor bodies together and ran them to the main Woofer "- " terminal, which is ground. You just have to wait 50-100 hours for everything to run in, and you will think you have ruined the speaker for the first few minutes! Just wait.....
I never really understood Klipsh. They could have spent $100-200 more per speaker and made them so much better. The rear speaker terminals are not that great. They look nice, but functionally... you can get good Chinese gold plated terminals for $10 a set or less that I would prefer. The connection to the crossovers with the tabs rather than soldering.. well I understand. Much faster to build and if you ever need to pull the crossover you would be swearing as you tried to unsolder the wire unless they left enough service loop so you could pull the assembly from the rear and do it from outside the speaker. Right now I doubt you could as the wire from speaker terminals is pretty tight to the crossover. If I change it all I will leave just enough wire that it could be done from outside. You have a 10 ft run of speaker wire to the box, an extra 6 inches inside is not going to matter that much. I have pulled the woofers three times and really don't want to do it again though. The T nuts in MDF... you don't want to push it.
+1 Roxy and Donsachs. I agree. I think I'll stop on damping them--the horns and bass ports are good enough for now.
I also like the sound with grills on.
Donsachs, I completed a coupling cap upgrade to my amp and the CWIVs sound incredible. I cannot imagine how things will change when I do the crossovers. I took a good investigative look when I was inside and I don't think the job is that bad. I'm thinking silicone tape on the ODAMs would make me feel better about conductive properties.
I agree on bass being somewhere in the mid 30s. I splurged for two REL T9is and, like you, they barely run. The sound is massive, delicate, powerful when appropriate, and the voicing right now is eloquent.
Like you, I don't biwire stuff. And I do think Klipsch could've done a touch better job on the connectors. I had the same thought about making them a single input.
I have my grills on. I take them off now and then, but honestly, like you say, the speaker sounds great with them on and they look cool and the spousal acceptance factor is very high. Very retro looking. Is it a perfect speaker? Is there a perfect speaker? They are fun and mine are driven by an entirely tube setup that I built and they see about 64 watts/ch. The amp really doesn't know they are connected. Unlimited headroom. The comment above on the bass is my take as well. Good and quick until the mid 30's. I just got a pair of Hsu uls-15 mk2 subs like Oz has and they provide the fill in below 40 Hz. They hardly come on, but they definitely provide a nice fill. It is a very good system and really, I don't need more. Someday I might build an entirely new crossover with the same ODAM caps and the pathaudio resistors I used, but seek out better inductors. I may rebuild the speaker terminals with something a little more convenient and just internally solder the HF leads so there is only one set of inputs. I am not into bi-wiring. Maybe I will get around to this stuff and maybe not. Sounds great as it is. I think the imaging grade of B+ was pretty accurate with the stock crossovers. Putting much better caps in and better resistors brings them into the A range....
Having owned Cornwall IIs and Bob Crites Cornscalas I will say that the cabinet of the CW IV has very little cabinet coloration that I can discern. The older cornwalls, and from what I've read, even the CW III, all had some form of cabinet resonance. So did Bob's cornscalas, which is the number one reason I sold them even after damping the horns and upgrading the crossovers.
I don't know about damping the cabinets. They may be as lively as Klipsch wanted to work with the woofer to get the sound they want. Or not.... The easiest thing is to make whatever you are doing removeable so you can put it back to stock if you don't like the change
jb, Years ago in my Klipsch Epics i attached sheets of Blackhole, a multi layer anti-resonance sheet for speaker cabinets, and it improved the silence of the cabinet dramatically. I do remember reading in a couple of places that you should not put damping material on the back of the baffle. I don't know why that would be wrong, but I took the advice.
I have now damped the tweeter, midhorn, and the three bass ports. Very easy modification.
The crossovers are next. I have to sell something to fund the upgrade. I'd rather go in there once and do it the right way. So, I'm going to need ~$900.
Donsachs, do you have any opinion on adding damping to the inside of the cabinet? It seems to be calling for it. My concern would be that in lowering the resonance (a good thing) it might create a reflective surface for sounds to bounce around too much and change the voicing.
According to their site it is basically a shielded resistor. I have no idea why that would be necessary, but anyway there is no hum of any sort, the speaker sounds great, I didn't change the values of any parts so the crossover functions as it always has, just sounds better.
that is just a drain wire on the pathaudio resistor. You don't even have to connect it if you don't care to. I tied the two of them together and then soldered to woofer ground input. They fit easily on the board
I opened them up today to take a look around and damp the mid horn and tweeter. As an aside, the damping made a real difference. I was not surprised as I damped my Forte IIIs and it helped materially there too.
You are fortunate to be able to take advantage of vendor/quantity discount pricing with Chris (Good guy by the way). I used VCap CuTFs in a Primaluna integrated that I modified. They, along with Audyn copper, worked superbly. I sold the amp, nevertheless, as while I improved it I found something that I found to be a better match for the CW IVs.
I think I may wait 6 months and do the cap upgrade with the ODAMs--to give me time to allocate funds. The size of the ODAMs alone is likely to save me some real headaches.
With regard to the Path Audio resistors, their size seems to be a decent fit over the ceramic stock ones. I don’t know the manufacturer of the ceramic stock resistors and, unlike some folks, I do not believe that ceramic cast resistors are necessarily bad, poor sounding, etc.
Finally, I need to figure out and understand (just my nature) the function, application and wiring concerning that third wire on the Path Audio resistor. Is it some kind of ground or drain? What does it do and where does it link to, if anywhere? Any intel will be appreciated but I know folks are busy. I'll try to learn about this on my own.
Get out your notebooks and record what Don Sachs is telling you, you're not going to get such detailed info from anyone who has the knowledge and experience that Don has... 👍
from above:
Hi Don! I started to put together a parts list to modify the crossover caps. I like VCAP much. I've used their CuTFs before. Can you shed some light on where one could cut corners a bit to save cost? The reason I ask is that the mods you did come up to $896 in caps--
I may do the VCAP ODAMs on 2.7, 2.2 and 6.8 and try something more affordable on the other values.
I used the VCap ODAM because I build a lot of tube gear and they sound better than anything I have ever heard. I have never liked the sound of the teflon caps much. Others have different tastes and that is how it should be. I get OEM pricing on the VCaps because I buy a lot of them. But I cannot sell them under that agreement, only use them for my builds. The retail price starts to go down at quantity 2, but yes, they are expensive little devils! Honestly, the stock caps in the crossover appear to be typical MKP caps. I cannot say how good they are. I put caps in that I know are as good as anything out there and I could hear quite a difference. Also, getting the sand resistor out of there matters a lot too. I used the pathaudio ones at about $25 each, but even a nice Mills or something would be better. The 2.75, 2.25, and 7 uF values are the most important ones for the caps. I left the big one alone as it is just across the woofer. You could probably leave the others alone as well. The three above values are directly in series with the mid and high drivers. I am not sure if something more affordable would be better than what is there now for the other values, I really don't know. I had all but the largest value in stock for the ODAM so I used them. For cheaper options, the multicaps have always been good reliable ones, as well as the mundorf supremes, but not sure these are much better than what it is there now, since they are not labelled and I didn't measure them. The oil filled mundorfs are about as expensive as the vcaps and the I prefer the VCap ODAM to anything mundorf. Again, we all have our tastes.... Lots of folks like Duelunds and I also like the Miflex KPCU, but both are huge for the value and would not fit, and I prefer the ODAM to any of them.
I would like to offer another low output tube option. I am using an Aric Audio Super 88/150 SE and it is a great amp. It can use many different output tubes, but configured with EL34s as I am using it, the rated power is 12 watts/channel. Aric Kimball is a great designer and this is one of the best tube amps I have owned. He is very accessible and loves to talk about his products and his philosophy.
This amp is a wonderful match for the Cornwall IV.
Haven’t had a chance to demo the cw iv yet, curious how the soundstage height is? I currently have a pair of smaller maggies (mg12), and the height of the cornwalls, I think 38 inches or so, is substantially shorter. thanks
I thought about both those amps, read a little about them. Personally, I don't think 2 watts is enough for the CW. I have a good 2A3 amp that puts out 3.5w or so. It sounds great at low volume but can't fill my space. Steve G thinks the CW4/Decware is a great combo, though. You might, too.
Thanks! I was SET on the Decware SE84UFO25, but still not sure. It uses neither of those typical tubes. The Audiophiliac liked it with the CW4. The Feliks 300B seems also quite good. Hard choices:)
I picked up a used Luxman MQ-300, an unusually good incarnation. But I think most well-designed SETs using this tube would be suited to the Cornwalls. I’d been skeptical that 8 watts would be adequate but it’s just right; and the rich midrange textures of the 300B are ideal for the Cornwall. These speakers can do nuance and delicacy as well as they do dynamics, and that’s a wonderful combo--right up SET ally. One of the things I like most about SET amps is they way they release the music to you rather than push it at you. I think the Cornwalls tend to push a bit, themselves, so amps that mitigate that tendency work best, at least in my survey of various amps. I’ve never tried a single-ended pentode amp but I’d assume it would behave similarly to a SET and sound pretty great on these speakers, too.
Quick update. I’m now some 4 months into my Cornwall IV adventure and they continue to surprise and delight. Amp pairing has been interesting. I’ve used 100w Class A solid state, 36w EL84 push-pull, 18w 6L6GC push-pull, 10w EL84 push-pull, 3.5w 2A3 SET, and now 300B SET. All have been various shades of good to great, but the winner by several lengths... 300B! To my ears, in my room, with my ancillaries, this is the tube. Only 8 watts but it’s more than enough to fully energize my challenging 650+ sq/ft space while giving me everything I want in timbre, tonal richness, layering, and other SET beauties. Dynamics are superb. Bass is visceral. All the technical audiophile stuff there, plus the emotional engagement with the artistry of the musicians that I found lacking just a bit with other tubes and topologies (except the 2A3, but it simply did not have enough power). This is where I’ll stay. It is some of the best sound I’ve had, which I did not expect from a $6K speaker, let alone one made by Klipsch! Live and learn.
Thanks to all, but especially @jayrossi13 and @dbarger , whose posts about their success with 300B amps and these speakers nudged me down this road.
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