Isolation Advice Needed

@stringreen  my system is on the ground floor but the house sits on raised foundation so there's vibration issues. That's where Townshend seismic corners are helping. I'll be working on room treatments soon. So far I like the way my system  system sounds but the room is a bit lively so will have to tame it via room treatments.

Best Regards 

Don't do anything until your system is in place then experiment.  I suspect you will need room treatments.   If you can get your system on the ground floor it will improve.

@astolfor ​​​​@noromance  thank you both for nobsound recommendation, will check them.

Best Regards 

Thanks for the update. You might try the aforementioned Nobsound springs under your amps. I use them to good effect. 

Apologies for a delayed update but was busy with the move and travel. I'm very happy to report that Townshend seismic corners are working amazingly well. Just make sure you get the right load rated cells. I can jump near the rack but TT doesn't skip a beat. John Hannant of Townshend Audio worked with me to make sure I ordered the correct load cell rating.

You owe it to yourself to try NobSound, I have Townshend, IsoAcoustics’s every kind. By far, at least mechanically these $34 pucks are the best. I have measured with all kinds of accelerometers, laser Doppler vibrometers, a Trinnov appliance, and REW just to mention a few. I took the time, but I was able to reduce vibrations with these pucks in the 3 axis to 0.00000013gs, that is 6 zeros to the right, while playing music uncomfortably loud.

Now I have 5 Townshend platforms for my speakers, 3 for my turntables, countless IsoAcoustics OREA, which are the worse, and many others. Over 20K of Euros, replaced with a bunch of $8 springs.

I found the link in your Amazon

https://www.amazon.com/Nobsound-Aluminum-Speakers-Isolation-Amplifiers/dp/B07K9ZYP84/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1P4XPOGVVG8MY&keywords=nobsound+springs&qid=1651543312&sprefix=nobsound+spring%2Caps%2C131&sr=8-1

Thank you all, placed an order for Townshend isolation corners. Will report back when I have them installed.

Best Regards

@edgyhassle Thank your for confirming my hopes by attesting  their effectiveness. 

+1 Townshend...love em'. My bouncy floor still bounces and my equipment floats.

@slaw  Thank you. I had the same thought. I'll probably go with F (flat) type, the spikes on my rack are removable.

Best Regards

I think the Townshend corners are your best solution.

I do wonder if having the post contact each corner module would be superior in making contact than with a spike. More contact area would seem to have a greater positive effect

@antigrunge2 Thank you. Seismic sink is no longer offered but I'm leaning towards seismic isolation corners to isolate whole rack, especially one that houses the TT and tube electronics. They are not cheap but I can't seem to find anything else that's reasonably priced.

Best Regards

Townshend used to produce an air floating stand called the Seismic Sink. If You can find one of those, that may well be the answer to your issue

Ok, now I'm jealous.

@oldaudiophile wall mount is a no-go, no load bearing wall to not sturdy. I really like the P6, especially with the new Audiomods tonearm. I have a soft corner for vintage Tandberg gear, specifically their magnetic players. Have accumulated a lot of spares and learnt how to on these machines to keep them going. Had a Revox PR99 MKII but Tandberg beat is in SQ. Both are high speed 2-Tr machines.

@retiredfarmer good idea but I don’t think I’m allowed to 🙂

@o_holter Thank you, that’s one of the backup solutions

@goose Thank you, Townshend podiums and isolation corners look very interesting. Will do more research. The demo video is impressive.

@4krowme No floor bounce at this time and there are piers under girders at 8ft spans.

Best Regards

Let me say this: If you don't have a well supported wood floor in the first place underneath your house, then adding layers of weight (read more sag) with whatever type of flooring material will likely be in vain. 

 I know that there are other issues of concern with a concrete floor, yet it would be my preference to deal with.

I'm a big fan of Townshend audio isolation products.  Effective isolation of each component can get expensive.  I use the Townshend podiums on my speakers but they have "seismic corners that can be used on an equipment rack.

Thank you all for all the great suggestions.

Best Regards

I was able to hammer two vertical beams into place in the basement so they support the wood floor in our living / listening room, beneath the rack and speakers. Result: we can jump in front the player without the cartridge skipping, and have no problems with footfalls, dancing, gym, etc. Probably my best feet/damping/platform investment ever.

@retiredfarmer _hey farmer- I did something similar- two sheets of marine ply, with glue and a barn mat. Still didn't fix footfall issues in an 1880 house in downtown Austin. I respect farmers, rednecks and all people driving pick-up trucks for work. :)

Well In a room I had before putting new carpet down I glued  and screwed 3/4 MDf to the floor a screw every eight inches bothways. That ended all the bounce in the floor I started doing that before laying ceramic tile floors in different homes a tile layer I knew told to reinforce the floors that way so the tiles didn't nearly. So I carried that idea with me before I layed the carpet down in that stereo room. As others have pointed out it maybe worth your time to reinforce the floors from underneath. I would do the extra layer in the floor if you can get them to do it before they lay the rug. Personally if they haven't done the drywall I would have them use 5/8 fire rated it is much more dense. Those are just ideas if you get a chance to have it done before they finish the room. Really not too much money that way. 

Regards

Man, I should have skipped this thread. Now, I am thinking of crawling under my house to brace what I absolutely know needs to be braced. The house was built in 1930 and code was something that only Morse knew. There are a few soft spots in the wood floor in 3 locations in different rooms and one of them is close to the audio system.

@livin_262002, don't know how you feel about the possibility of a wall mount for the TT but that is one consideration to consider if  you decide it needs isolation. Nothing wrong with that P6! That is one nice TT. Just needs to be placed on something rock steady because of that low-mass design.

Back in the day (i.e.  early 70's), I had my eye on a Tandberg R2R and, also, a Revox.  I would have loved to buy one of those things but couldn't afford a good one. So, I settled for a Craig, at the time, which lasted a very long time before I had to put it out to pasture.

All the best!

@livin_262002 

I am an enthusiast of Symposium Acoustics products.  The owner, Peter, is easily available to speak with by calling them direct.  He will guide you very well, regarding your particular situation and needs.  Symposium offers a turntable specific platform called the Segue ISO.  This platform is made of the constrained layer design, like all Symposium platforms, and also uses springs which are available in several sizes as needed per the weight of the turntable.  The Segue ISO comes in several standard sizes as well as can be ordered by any custom size that you may need.  Try contacting Peter and see if he has to offer what will satisfy your needs.   The website is very helpful and detailed.  Certainly worthy of your effort.  Best to you.

The equipment I listed in my original post are only the ones that I thought were VERY sensitive to vibrations. I have the following additional components ...

1) Tandberg TD20A SE (Reel-to-Reel)

2) Tandberg TCD-3014A x 2 (Cassette decks)

3) Oppo BDP-105

4) Sony 75ES DAT

5) Genesis Digital Lens

6) Benchmark DAC

7) ExactPower EP15A

@whart Active air suspension, as you aptly pointed out, might leave table in an uneven profile for a short time while it tries to adjust. MinusK seems to be a better all-round solution, if needed.

@steakster Thank you, did research those too. All footer suggestions are great for electronics just have to choose the right one for mine. OTOH, for TT I'm looking for a future proof solution.

@jerrybj Lol

@henry53 Thank you, I have been researching those as well. I did get a video of the crawl space and as @noromance hinted, there are concrete piers with smart jacks at regular spans (8 ft apart) under girders. So the floor is not bouncy but given the empty space (crawl space), I can see vibrations can amplify and travel along the floor.

@elliottbnewcombjr  Thank you for a detailed explanation of your solution. The floor has no bounce at all (at least for now), My main concern is what I explained above. Love your JVC TT though.

@oldaudiophile Thank you for the insight and suggestions, I'm yet to decide on the furniture for the room. Not sure what the mrs will want to put in there :). My older kid loves to dance when I have the music playing so that's the other reason why I've been researching. I might go for a heavier TT later this year so what ever isolation solution I decide on has to be future proof.

I agree, I should wait until I make my decision but wanted to get some great suggestions in advance so I have enough data when its time. 

Best Regards

@livin_262002, here's another two cents from the peanut gallery:  wait 'til you get set up in the new house and see if you need any isolation.  With all the additional weight put on the floor(s) from furniture, etc., you may not need to spend any cash on isolation. New "stick-built" construction, nowadays, uses 8' X 10' wood floor joists 16" OC, sometimes cross-membered; sometimes not. Sometimes, builders will go 12" OC with the floor joists to add more strength; sometimes, they'll even go less than 12" OC or "marry" (double-up) floor joists and cross-member them to add additional strength (e.g.  accommodating additional weight of tile flooring). My house has single 8' X 10' floor joists 16" OC for the first floor, wood flooring and wall-to-wall carpet over that in my sound room (i.e.  14' X 23' living room). I've got a Salamander Synergy rack on its regular adjustable pad feet (i.e.  no spikes) and I don't need any isolation for my system.  My TT weighs a little over 24 lbs.  Rega is a proponent of low mass design. Hence, the P6 weighs less than half of that. It was on my short list when I was shopping for a new TT. However, I eventually decided I liked the idea of more mass (i.e   heavier) for a TT. My amp is just under 40 lbs. and the rest of the equipment & stuff I have on the Salamander probably adds another 30 or 40 lbs. or so. I do have a lot of bookshelves in the living room, though, one of which is floor-to-ceiling. So, I'm sure the weight of all the books adds a lot. I've had plenty of parties & people over while entertaining and have never had any issues with vibration, footfalls or any of that sort of thing. I've also occasionally had small children over. However, the sound system, especially the TT, is not in use when small children are around, for obvious reasons, or I'll sit with the kids to make sure they behave if they want to listen to some music. Frankly, I don't trust anyone anywhere near my TT, except my closest audiophile friends. As long as people aren't dancing up a storm in the living room, jumping up & down and doing stuff like that, my sound room is just fine.

I also have wood floor over crawl space. It is springy, has been problematic, luckily solved now. It was built in 1951, I think with ’green’ wood (not properly dried) as so much building occurred after WWII. More problematic than most suspended wood floors.

My Thoren’s TD124 Magnificent, but it’s Bearing was very susceptible to vertical motion, traded it for that reason, still miss it.

My Audio Technica AT120, much lighter player, was ok but cautious steps when close. No dancing or kids running nearby please.

Current JVC Victor Heavy TT81 player in a heavy CL-P2 plinth was similarly ’cautious approach’ until I put it on 2" x 2" isolators, they can be seen in 7th photo here.

I have since wrapped the blue with black tape, far less noticable

.....................................................

A major part of my problem/solution is: the floor slopes immediately from the wall, the front of the rack is 3/4" down. Then the floor levels out.

Previously I had little blocks under the rack’s ends which were recessed from the front a good bit. Then I would level the Turntable on the top shelf. I realized, all the weight, rack, 80 lb amps, two double wide shelves of equipment was tilted forward, much of it in front of the recessed end panels, thus any vibration involved ALL that weight forward of a fulcrum point.

I built new side supports, tapered as needed for 3/4" extra in the front, and extending a few inches in front of the rack, (also seen in the same 7th photo) so the entire rack and equipment is level on that sloping floor, all the weight now behind the front fulcrum point.

Each glass shelf has it’s own firm rubber isolators, and top equipment is on racks I designed with firm rubber feet.

Mechanical jacks under the floor are a cheap, stable option but will not solve the real problems of your stereo. You can effectively build a suspended floor under you speakers with the speakers mounted on springs and the suspended floor further mounted on springs and then the wooden floor.  Mine are blocks of laminated pine, built like mini butcher's blocks, 600mm x 450mm x 100mm. this arrangement isolates the speakers from the floor and the speakers from each other. Spring rates depend on the weight of the speakers for the first set of springs and the weight of the speakers and blocks combined for the second set of springs. Depression of each set should be around 25 - 35 %.  This is achieved by reducing or increasing the spring size and or number of springs. Nobsound springs are good but more expensive than others on Amazon. Total cost for my set up was approx $120.

Black Ravioli are made in Scotland and not well known in the USA.

Very well priced at approx US$260 for a set of four.

Will I get them back? Hope so. He also has one of my grounding boxes, and my Audience AU24Sx RCAs. 

I'd suggest a number of concrete piers to support the floor. If your builder can't or won't do it, you could add hydraulic jacks. Suspended floors bounce. 

Barry Diament, who did a number of pretty famous remasters, suggested a bicycle tire in an enclosure (if you want to get fancy); there are commercial variations on this, including obsolete stock from Townshend. You float the turntable on air. 

I have a problem in that the automatic -re-up (Vibraplane connected to an air compressor) might change the balance of the turntable. That is peculiar to my system, given the Airline arm (which needs to be aimed "downslope" to do its "thang"). :) Feel me? :)

@whart I'm going crazy trying to find a non-crazy solutions.

Don’t go crazy if you don’t have to. We had a house in Westchester, NY that was made entirely of concrete. Floor, ceilings, etc. Circa 1911. I think concrete has improved since then. But I didn’t even bother to do a serious system in that house; I was "on the road" for some years, traveling between Scandinavia and the US, Florida and West Coast. Great years for me, professionally, but I took a dive on two channel in favor of home theatre back I the ’90s and early oughts. Now I’m back!

The big Minus K, which is what I have, will stop ’em dead. I’m not shilling. Believe me. The Minus K folks could only provide me with support up to a degree. When I wanted to do two tone arms-- implicating two thirty pound pods for support-- they weren’t interested in doing the math. I talked to a friend at CMU and a few other people, including a famous reviewer and an engineer at Penn State who was doing gob’tment work. I concluded that the Minus K was not suitable for a load that did not have a center of mass. But, I’m happy to be corrected. Right now, it’s cool, with only one arm; others may have different results, depending on situs.

@whart Thank you for sharing your experience. My house is brand new so no give in the floor but just that I’m not used to non-concrete floors. I still feel there’s going to some amount of floor vibration, be it be from speakers or people walking. I want to avoid those as well. Hence the request for suggestions.

My set-up is on the first floor. Thought about wall shelf but listening room has no load bearing walls so not sure how sturdy the shelf is going to be.

I’m intrigued by both minusk, how well does it stop floor borne vibrations?

​​​

@audioguy85 Thank you for the suggesting vibrapods but again no data on how well they stop floor borne vibrations. My phono stage already has HRS nimbus feet from factory but I’d still like to pace it on an isolation platform.

@jerrybj are you sure you’re going to get them back ?🙂

Here are the suggestions from you all so far ...

1) Symposium svelte

2) BR pads

3) MinusK

4) Vibrapods

Best Regards

I lent the BR Big Pads to my cousin. He had been quoted something crazy for isolation pucks from his dealer (approx $400 each).

He said there was a "surprisingly big difference" with the BR pads.

And I haven't got them back yet.

Vibrapods and their cones work well. Also, can't beat a dedicated turntable wall shell. 

I’ll tell you my experience, which may not be relevant. We moved from NY to Texas a while ago, and went from an old house (1780’s core, brought up to modern standards) to an 1880’s pier and beam in Austin. I had a structural engineer here for other reasons, and wanted him to look at the TT situation. Second floor- this house is restored to period by preservationists and well done, not on a budget. He said the walls would move-- my TT is like 245 lbs with plinth. Otherwise a wall shelf would have been my first move.

I had to buy a Minus K, an otherwise unnecessary expenditure, to isolate the TT from footfalls. Works like a charm, but tres cher. So I guess questions might include: are you on the ground floor w/ your system; you can always add a concrete pier or other support for floor under TT if you are; your table is light enough (at least compared to mine) to do a wall shelf, if the walls won’t move with the floor. Congrats on the move.

@jerrybj Thank you for seconding BR pads. I’ll give them a try under my amp, phono and turntable.

Best Regards

Black Ravioli Big Pads are fantastic.

I have then under my amp and Dac.

@antigrunge2  Thank you for the suggestions. I'll look into both. I'd have thought Svelte shelf would go under components and BR pads under speakers :). Thank you for complimenting my speakers and amp I really like the combination. Graaf did make world class components, sad they shutdown. I'm sure your GM-20 sounded fabulous. GM moniker was assigned to a selected few components.

Best Regards

Putting symposium svelteshelves on rollerblocks under your speakers and using black ravioli footers under your components should deal with the issue. I found these to be very cost effective.,BTW: good choice of speakers and amplifier. (i used to own a Graaf GM20)