Is it too much to ask....

For those out there that are familiar with the term "audiophile," it's this kind of stuff that adds to any of the negative connotations out there about people with our interests.

Apparently Yes.

"After all, isn't the *most* inmportant spec. how much the amp delivers?"

From a marketing standpoint, but it really does not say much about sound or build quality or how it will mate with your intended speakers.

Really, anytime I see something interesting, i Google it for more information and reviews.

Even the manufacturer of my amp does not give execpt specs.

Output power more than 100 W at 8 Ohm.

This is all the info I have about the power output of my amp. Also many manufacturer lie about the power an amp delivers. They state that an amp delivers 100W at 8 Ohm and 200W at 4 Ohm and 400W at 2Ohm. This looks nice on paper, an amp that can double its output each time. But what they do not tell is that the amp delivers maybe 150-160W at 8 Ohm, 250 at 4 and 360 at 2 Ohm.

I would take power output stated by the manufacturer with a (large) grain of salt.

So how meaningfull is it to plish those figures.

I wish they'd post the COLOR of the amp. Last one I bought on A was silver. I wanted black.
Just doesn't sound right.
Got paint?

Maybe the wattage is private to some, just like the reserve price on an auction.

First:

Marty, get the hell out of here.....and take your logical rationality with you damn it!! ;)

Hilarious!

Second:
I've bought (& sold) many amps over the years. Never have I given a thought to whether or not specs were listed in the sellers ad. If I'm interested in trying a piece out, I will do some research, ridiculously simple in this age of Google, and if it meets my needs, I'll buy it. I personally couldn't care less if specs are listed. I like to see a photo, but even that's not required. I have bought pieces based on how the member rated the piece and their previous feedback.

Marty, get the hell out of here.....and take your logical rationality with you damn it!! ;)

I wasn't asking for someone to re-iterate *every* single spec. on the amp. But it would seem prudent to at least list the power rating, perhaps the THD and such, the weight, and dimensions.

Asking a potential buyer to Google up these simple facts will, IMHO, reduce your chances of selling the amp. I try to divine the power rating from the Mfgr's. Model #, but sometimes that is not possible.

BTW, I've been in this hobby for many, many years (45+) and I know a few things about how amps work, and how they're spec'd. - not a newb by any means.

Folks who get all self-righteous and proudly declare "I would never deign to publish the specs. of my amp!, Certainly, sir, you should know ALL of the specs. of ALL the amps there are out there!" amuse me...

As for "why would anyone look at 40 or 50 amps?" Oh, I dunno, perhaps I was helping a friend find suitable amplification for his system. It's a sure bet I'd never recommend one of Viridian's pieces, no matter the specs. or price...
-RW-

I have a thought about all this but you all should know what it is, so i'm not telling. Ha!

Yes it is!

Why is it that our national sense of entitlement manifests itself even in the sale of audio equipment? Is there no respect for private property any more?

The amp is owned by the seller, and last I checked (it has been a while though), the seller pays the fees. If you don't like the ad because the seller won't list the ratings, then move on to the next ad. As you indicated, there ARE plenty more to look at. Why get all worked up? If the amp doesn't sell because of a poor listing, that is the owner's consequence, not yours!

In the past couple years, AudiogoN has moved from an enthusiast focused community to market place community focused on bringing buyers and sellers together. The responses to this post make this pretty clear...in my opinion.

Mitch4t, your post says it well. Music and the love of music is the foundation for places like these forums. Music as an art form is beautiful, but some of the thoughts expressed here are just plain ugly. What a dichotomy!

Smile when you say that!

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I am not interested in just dumping it off on the first fool passing by.

There needs to be a whine catagorey so people can get their whine on.

but there was a time when Audiogon had sophisticated buyers and sellers.

Hey, be a true audiophile and be self taught about this activity and hobby. You have to pay to play.

And thus I never had to deal with some whiny idiot. LOL.

this site was cool before but you knew it couldnt last but thats progress.Anytime something good gets going and the masses find out it naturally starts to decay.Witness the whiner who begs for a meaningless clue

...what an amazing bunch of imperious, derisive, condescending pompous asses.
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Agreed,this site was cool before but you knew it couldnt last but thats progress.Anytime something good gets going and the masses find out it naturally starts to decay.Witness the whiner who begs for a meaningless clue.As Groucho Marx would say......cheers,James

Ha! Love it and Amen....

Or one can save alot of time & headaches, by running a blank ad and in the heading use the words: "Guess what I'm selling." If they they don't get it right, they should look elsewhere because I'm sure not going out of my way to type in any description or specs that could possibly result in a sale. Because I'm no idiot.

+1 Elizabeth. Thank goodness for A.A.

Specs like this are important too I guess

1. How old is the unit and are you the original owner?2. Is the unit in perfect working order and has it ever been repaired or modified?3. Will you please email me some more pictures of it?4. What service was it used for and how often?5. Why are you parting with it?

+1 Paraneer and Rockadanny

Wow, this seems so straight forward and captain obvious. Ya, put the darn watts per channel in the ad as it is an amp after all! Are we really arguing this?

Oh my, no way we humans will avoid falling over the pending fiscal cliff and this thread is my proof:-)

Agree with OP. Seller easily knows all specs, especially if they are a dealer or mfr. Don't make buyers hunt for specs, which are not always readily available. Simple courtesy.

I wonder how many here knew the specs of their gear before walking in to buy it and how many knew walking out the door.

If I am interested in a product and the seller doesn't
provide even the most basic specs or worse, list a product and not say if it is an amp, pre, speaker, etc then I will not buy from them. If the pictures show a lot of dust (are you that lazy that you can't even bother to make the piece you are selling look saleable?), stuff piled on top of it or no pictures and the seller refuses to send pictures then I won't buy from that person. If the seller or buyer doesn't have any feedback then again, I won't do business with that person unless I am selling the item and I get paid via Paypal first.

Lately, there seems to be a lot of jerks selling and buying in the classifieds. And yes, I look at the ads every day and even if I am not looking to buy something, if something catches my eye I may buy the item provided my minimum criteria has been met.

There seems to be a lot of arrogance here as of late and IMHO our hobby can do without it. I always list the minimum specs, take nice pictures, the item looks clean, and I always make a sale within the first week. As a matter of fact, I have listed stuff I thought would never, ever sell but amazingly it does and I am sure it is because the ads look good and the price is right.

There was a guy selling an Audible Illusions Modulus 3A preamp here a couple of months ago and he had the list price of 3,895.00!!! I politely sent him a message saying that price was for the much newer Modulus3B and that the 3A sold for at least a grand less and he told me to go f#%$k myself. So much for honest sellers.

"They (specs/numbers) may be of some use when trying to integrate a system though, matching impedences and efficiency requirements, etc."

Exactly! That's why some numbers are important!

A seller that knows which ones matter most impresses me and establishes credibility that helps with all the rest.

You know the more "murky" stuff that might help actually distinguish a product from its numerical peers or just be a lot of BS.

What if a buyer asks a question about specs? Do you bother to help them out then or tell them to do their homework elsewhere first before inquiring?

Mapman, I answer any questions a buyer may have. As to how much numbers mean to anyone in this hobby, I suppose you would have to decide if you feel that music is an objective listening experience or a subjective listening experience.
Personally, I do not get hung up on numbers, they tell you nothing about how a product sounds. They may be of some use when trying to integrate a system though, matching impedences and efficiency requirements, etc. For the objective, who listen by the numbers, I suppose numbers mean more. I lost interest in numbers during the THD wars of the 70's and 80's when global feedback was used to artificially decrease the THD. Amps had "better" specs and sounded worse.

As always in this hobby, YMMV.

I sell for a living. Anything I can do to "speed up" the sale, is money in my pocket. Why? Because time is money!
If that means posting more info than what is necessary for the sophisticated buyer, but holds the hand of the one who needs it - so be it. As long as I don't misrepresent the product to offend the knowledgeable buyer, the sophisticated buyer shouldn't care. The one who wants the info will appreciate the posted specs. In todays economy, it's a buyers's market and more effort is required on behalf of the seller. It would be interesting to know the time of the sales cycle for those that disagree.

"My question to RW is... who is lazier? The seller who does not post specs on his product, or the buyer who is not interested enough to look up the specs on his own? "

They are both lazy IMHO.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

A url reference that the buyer can copy and paste to the reference site with the correct specs can suffice. That is probably the approach I would take to provide teh most information possible efficiently.

WHen the buyer checks, having some correct specs available via the add adds seller credibility, which matters.

Sellers can publish what they want or not for whatever reason. If it works it works. But more information is usually better than none, especially with expensive items.

What if a buyer asks a question about specs? Do you bother to help them out then or tell them to do their homework elsewhere first before inquiring?

Seeing an ad for an expensive esoteric item in particular with nothing at all to justify the cost other than the cost itself is a major negative to me. If I were the seller, I would not assume the buyer has the high opinion of the product needed to justify the cost.

Touting expensive gear with nothing measurable to justify the cost is a common practice of audiophiles that is often criticized. I guess if only another audiophile can appreciate what a product offers due to factors that are not measurable or reportable, then why bother publishing any facts? The enlightened audiophile will know? Or is this just a way to market a product whose asking price cannot be justified quantitatively? Its a valid question.

Whine and whine...

In a post-apocalyptic world, this thread provides good clues as to who would survive vs. who would perish.

Buyers need to do their OWN homework about anything they are considering purchasing! It is a LUXURY to me if the seller is kind enough to provide features and specs, but in this cyberweb era none of us has ANY excuse for not doing the requisite research before purchasing ANYTHING.

Hey, be a true audiophile and be self taught about this activity and hobby. You have to pay to play.

Do as President Lincoln did, READ!

Enough said, and stop whining people!

I didn't realize that we were choosing sides here. I tend to side with Viridian and Onhwy61. I'm still used to the old Audiogon days, when we had educated consumers. Audiogon has changed, there are many more uneducated consumers and even scammers here now. Too many tire kickers and low ballers now. Who decides what the most imporatant spec is? If I'm selling speakers, is it the speakers size or efficiency that is more important?
I've found it easier to just sell on other sites now. There is not nearly as much traffic, but I haven't dealt with an uneducated buyer yet.

My question to RW is... who is lazier? The seller who does not post specs on his product, or the buyer who is not interested enough to look up the specs on his own?

I have never bought anything without doing my due diligence or homework on a product. I've found many ads that have posted misleading specifications. Some will post fake photos too. Are you going to blindly trust a salesman's word??? I suggest that you investigate a potential purchase fully yourself. If you are interested, look up the numbers yourself, after all, you are spending YOUR money.

Good ad copy should address the needs of your audience. Too much copy or not the right info will turn off the audience.

Audiogon has many types of consumers, therefore, there is NO perfect one size fits all ad format and copy. There is no right or wrong….it’s just preference.

If I'm truly interested in a product I'll do my own fact finding research.
The OP said he looked at 40 to 50 amps today, seems like he's on the wrong track already.

How about those infalted original price specs, seeing more and more of that here.

I've never purchased an item on Audiogon without either knowing the product specs and reputation or researching them. I've enjoyed sales without any specs. In the computer age it is easy to look up all info on an item. I don't think this is a "high horse" issue. Just the way this site works. It's not Craig's list. It's not ebay. I much prefer the ads without specs. Even if some specs were shown, it should not be enough for the conscientious buyer. Use the space for photos of the component and details of your use or ownership. That is what I need to know that the company website and reviewers cannot tell me.

I remember when you used to be able to post a link in an AudiogoN ad. I used to post a link to the product I was selling web page. I miss that feature.

There simply is no good reason to omit info on anything you are trying to sell. I'm amazed anyone would not put all that in an add. I usually know what I want. (on the rare occasion i'm buying) I also think it's "lazy" when I read "if you are looking at this" That may not be the case at all, but that is the message it sends me. To be honest, I also just disregard that seller. No offense intended Marty.

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Sophistication and courtesy are not mutually exclusive.

Some of you need to come down off of your high horses.
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I could be showing my age, but there was a time when Audiogon had sophisticated buyers and sellers. Issues like this would not have come up.

No, its not too much to ask at all for a seller to regurgitate the key vendor specs that people base buying decisions on, like power rating, in the case of an amp to make life easier for the buyer. Its the smart thing to do IMHO.

You know what happens when one assumes....

I do not know a lot about a lot of things I see up for sale here initially other than what the seller tells me. If he tells me nothing of interest, I am more likely to take less notice accordingly.

Uuummmm....why would people "look at 40 or 50 amps", used I presume, in a day, if they don't know anything about the amps they are looking at? I guess a newbie might do that, so maybe it's more important for lower priced equipment to list the wpc.

I do agree, when selling entry level stuff, esp. on CL, it can be esp. useful to try to explain EVERYTHING about it. But people looking for more expensive audio gear, or keyboards, already know what they're looking for.

I mean, why would someone be looking to spend $1-2-3k+ on a used Cary, or C-J, ARC, whatever, amp if they don't know a lot about it already? Research is key, when buying anything, before starting the search, I'd think. Don't know what it is, look it up, it's easy these days.....

Too many buyers expect to be spoon fed audio knowledge and a minimalist ad can screen out those not willing to do a little research on power, distortion, matching, etc. Remember there are three kinds of lies. Lies, damn lies, and specifications. Watts per channel info. is for the most part useless information. You need to know how the amp behaves at 8-4-2 Ohms if a SS amp and a difficult load, and how much power is available at 20 hz up to 20khz. I have seen some 125 wpc tube amps only eek out 25 wpc into a 50hz load, and this was rolling severely at both ends. But at the benign 1 khz they can make rated power. Put a little stress in the mix and the amp nearly went belly up. When you see the amp for sale it will list 120wpc which is accurate as long as your music doesnt deviate far from 1khz. In my book, bass counts and if it can't make rated power into the frequency extremes it is unusable power. If those specs matter the decision is yours. Jallen

I understand Viridian's point about the type of buyer he prefers to deal with and that's his right as a seller. However, sellers should know that perceptions cut both ways. When I see an ad without much of a description, it smacks of deception or laziness (true or not I'm entitled to my opinion). If a person is lazy when posting an ad for something they want (a sale), how lazy were they when maintaining the equipment? I agree with Donjr about the dust and have recently commented on it in another thread (more laziness - see above).

If I'm in the market for something, yes I have done the research and know what I'm buying. But when I see something like "if you're looking at this ad ..." without anything else listed, it tells ME something about the seller. I refuse to do business with this type of seller and that is my right. I also won't buy from someone who doesn't post pictures or only stock pictures and if the item is more than ~ $100 I will need to talk with you first. Like Jedinite, I don't want to see the whole marketing brochure in the ad but a cut and paste of the spec section from the manufacturer's web site really doesn't take that much effort.

For me having specs in the ad is not important as I tend to know what I’m looking for and have done my homework in advance….but I am an audio hobbyist, therefore, I have a broader knowledge then a casual A’gon passerby.

I’m more interested in what cannot be found on manufactures websites, like the condition of the amplifier, any modifications/repair history, does the owner have original packing for safe shipping, is the warrantee transferable, does the owner have experience in shipping large heavy items, etc. Does he provide high resolution pictures? For me, these are important facts.

Wow! ditto, Mitch4t, amazing. No, it's not too much to ask Rlwainwright. Listing the power rating should be no big deal. (not the big deal that some of the posters are making) Sure the buyer needs to do their due diligence and learn what they don't know about the product through research. Once again you have forum members here that exhibit audiophile "off-putting" attitudes. It's like a seller saying "you don't know the product, so I'm not going to help you learn anything, and your money is no good here." Ludicrous....

while I understand the perspective Viridian (ie hobbyist), but I tend to include basic info and sometimes paste in complete spec's to help my odds of selling.

What drives me nuts is guys who paste in complete mfg spec's and features lists, but say absolutely nothing about the condition of the item.

As I expect many others here do, I browse a lot, and often see items that are unfamiliar to me (that's part of the fun of browsing). If the basics are not listed, I browse on(and all the quicker if I see "If you're reading this, you know . . . ").

My browsing only occasionally leads to unexpected buying, which make me think sellers who do not list basics don't miss too many sales for this reason.

In what seems to me a very tough market for sellers, though, I wonder why anyone would want to miss out on a chance for a sale, even a slight chance. I guess some people find typing in a few lines of info more burdensome than others, or find emails asking about the unlisted basics less annoying.

To each their own!

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Amazing. What seems would simply be a courtesy to provide the info for members of this forum, smacks of the same sales snobbery that potential buyers have faced in brick and mortar audio stores for decades.

If that's your attitude, every question asked here could be answered on some other website. But the majority of you take the time to answer those questions and help those with questions. You can extend the same courtesy while selling an item, it doesn't take that much more effort to write '100 wpc @ 8 ohms'.

I'd hate to be a newbie trying to buy something from those of you with that attitude. Those attitudes don't do the hobby any good. Thankfully, there are enough people here that are willing to be a little more helpful in the sales process.

RW, no, it is not too much to ask.
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