Introspective of this forum: "Does the Audiophile Community Have a Promlem?" I Say yes!!!
This article is so insightful to this forum and the toxicity in the community. (My Opinion)
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?
I know I have contributed to the toxicity here and will try to be a better citizen. Hopefully some will read this and see they are part of the problem (LOL)
Some will not and continue to play their roll as the Toxic Avenger.
There is a particular board on a specific forum that was hidden from the outside world because of how horrible it was. Where personal politics and racism was the norm 24-7 and one member even committed suicide after months of abuse. We watched him fight with other members on a daily basis and get a lot of heat back. He was fine most of the time when dealing with him on a individual basis but then he descended into some really horrible commentaries about race and certain countries and he went down the rabbit hole into some dark places.
Websites like ASR hold zero interest for me because a lot of the users are just there to be “right” and make others feel very small because their views don’t align with certain points of view.
I discovered myself the hard way that "subjectivist" and objectivist" cults are mirrorring the complete ignorance of psycho-acoustic and ignorance of the way to embed each piece of gear optimally...
We dont listen good sound because it is measured before with the right set of tools , or because our ears say so...The correlation between the two are necessary....
We listen good sound because we have put in place the optimal acoustic and psycho-acoustic conditions , eliminating vibrations and decreasing the noise floor...
Yes @mahgisterI agree and those (I was one) who live by measurements may never know what music really sounds like.
This a journey and what works for you may not work for me in my listening environment.
Online forums like Audio Science Review and Facebook groups have decayed into battlegrounds between objectivists, subjectivists, cable lovers, cable haters, and those who are obsessed with measurements and feel a lot of power telling others who think their own listening experiences are what truly matters, that they are morons and fools.
A lot of these “measurement” cults don’t actually listen to the equipment they test and shred online and feel quite confident telling the acoustic and electrical engineers who design hi-fi products that they are frauds and only they are qualified to tell audiophiles what is good.
Could you imagine going on a Porsche forum and telling someone from that company that they don’t know how to design a proper engine; and that prospective customers should listen to you versus them? Because you know better from some tests an amateur posted on a forum.
It’s laughable on a good day and rather sad behavior.
A reasonable person would infer that the particular board described in the provided quote that was hidden from the outside world was one of the AudioScienceReview forums. And that the narrative provided happened on this ASR forum.
How am I going so far? Is this the truth of the matter that is asserted?.
I can't speak for anyone on this forum except myself.
Do I have problems? Yes I do.
And I also have a system where I can play Jay-Z's "99 Problems" and feel a little bit better because of music. And I can play many other songs since I have a streamer; so at least there's that.
I also acknowledge it's my choice to read and/or post on this forum.
Funny seeing FB mentioned with ASR. Because I am very active on the Tekton Owner's Group on FB and have seen nothing like this.
Within the first few months someone said hey Miller you are nice here not like on the other forum what is the deal? The deal is no one attacks me on FB. That simple.
Jordan Peterson has a saying, "Go clean your room." Way more deep than it sounds. Society is so complex no one knows or even can know what is best for us all. We do however know very well what we should do. So go do those things, and not tell everyone else what to do. Go clean your room.
Just to give some idea how deep this goes, the word sin was mentioned. The word sin derives from an ancient language term of archery that means to miss the mark. Think about that. To miss the mark.
Now if you've ever fired an arrow, or a gun, or thrown a ball, anything like that, you know "the mark" is wherever you intended it to go. Really, when it comes down to it, only you know that. Not some third party. To sin is not to do what someone else told you to do. To sin is not even to do what someone else told you was bad to do. To sin is to do what you yourself know is wrong.
None of us ever does as well as we would like. We all miss the mark. We are all sinners. Not just audiophiles.
To sin is to not live your own life, your best life. That truly is missing the mark, the greatest sin of them all. May we never be old men looking back on our lives and remember how in the fourth grade on the first day of school when we realized with regret that we wasted an entire summer watching cartoons and doing a lot of nothing. Only we won’t be looking back on one summer, We’ll be looking back on our life. Live it, and anyone who would get in our way can F off. This is the only life we will likely get, and it’s much too special, too precious, not to live to the fullest, and certainly not to live for someone else.
And these people connect costly gear to a noisy grid and with no controls of vibrations, and especially important no acoustic serious consideration, save at best minimalistic acoustic treatment.... No acoustic control.... They call that being an audiophile because they hear that amplifier for example sound different...
Ears versus measuring tool....
But this duality has no sense and is completely meaningless in psycho-acoustic....
“ Within the first few months someone said hey Miller you are nice here not like on the other forum what is the deal? The deal is no one attacks me on FB. That simple. “
I've found that if you look for and expect bad from others, you will find it. We all have it. But conversely, if you look for and expect good from others, you will likely find that too. Sure, there are exceptions.. But generally this is true.
When I came here I had a decent but 20 years old system. I don't remember anyone looking down on me or my system.. ii remember asking about tone controls without any snarky comments made. But that was then. Not sure about today because the spirit of the age is one that seems to promote division rather than unity.. Still, we are responsible for our actions. I believe it comes down to each person doing the right thing no matter what external influences may heap upon us.
Looks like some just don't get it. I thought the me, me, me culture had died off or mutated into something innocuous but no luck there. This constant need to be a celebrity needs to die off lest it be our ruin.
Nothing good will come of it. It's been building for a long time and hopefully it will die an untimely (and fortunate for us) death, and none too soon.
What is a gentleman/woman? A person that makes their company or others feel at ease and as secure as they can. The deck of the Titanic the Band members kept playing. They were Gentle people but noble, sometimes your actions are all that is left to show others the true measure of compassion and to share. Tragedy will always show nobility and unfortunately every character flaw known to man..
Practice makes perfect? NO! BUT it sure helps.. You are what you eat, and you are what you repeat.
A lot of people know they do wrong, they choose to do wrong. So what is the unforgivable SIN? Assuming you will be forgiven.
You live aware, not in the shadows. Wrong is wrong and right is right. THERE is no gray, but there is plenty that is NONE of your business.. LOL
What would you want to be done to the guy/gal on the other side of the mirror?
I’ve found that if you look for and expect bad from others, you will find it. We all have it. But conversely, if you look for and expect good from others, you will likely find that too. Sure, there are exceptions.. But generally this is true.
When I came here I had a decent but 20 years old system. I don’t remember anyone looking down on me or my system.. ii remember asking about tone controls without any snarky comments made. But that was then. Not sure about today because the spirit of the age is one that seems to promote division rather than unity.. Still, we are responsible for our actions. I believe it comes down to each person doing the right thing no matter what external influences may heap upon us.
Merry Christmas to the wisest old mechanic we have here in audiogon...
What is a gentleman/woman? A person that makes their company or others feel at ease and as secure as they can. The deck of the Titanic the Band members kept playing. They were Gentle people but noble, sometimes your actions are all that is left to show others the true measure of compassion and to share. Tragedy will always show nobility and unfortunately every character flaw known to man..
Practice makes perfect? NO! BUT it sure helps.. You are what you eat, and you are what you repeat.
A lot of people know they do wrong, they choose to do wrong. So what is the unforgivable SIN? Assuming you will be forgiven.
You live aware, not in the shadows. Wrong is wrong and right is right. THERE is no gray, but there is plenty that is NONE of your business.. LOL
What would you want to be done to the guy/gal on the other side of the mirror?
@tubebuffer Thanks SG is a treasure and his video is spot on. If you haven’t heard or experienced something how can you honestly comment? It would be great if a poster was honest upfront and states something to the effect “ I haven’t heard this but it is crap or snake oil etc. “. That way you know exactly where they are coming from and you can toss their comments in the delete bin. As I have gotten older and hopefully wiser, I have found that it is a lot of fun and educational to go through life with an open mind.
Simple try to break the ideological line on ASR...
Good luck....
Here the ideological lines are way less enforced in stone,but there is more AVERAGE dudes with not always very great talent in diplomacy and politeness...
Merry Christmas to you and all....
This forum seems much more hateful and toxic than anything I've seen on ASR.
I read an extremely detailed review of the new Bluesound Node 2021this week, it was lambasted. Seemingly everything was totally wrong with it? Interestingly for a product designed, built and sold to solely reproduce music there was no mention of what it actually sounded like. It's called analysis paralysis.
Some folks take all of this way too seriously. Do they have too much skin in the game? Insecurity buttressed by intolerance.
And no one gets to define sin except the judge and jury. God has no problem with sinners or sin. It's when we refuse to offer grace is when he turns his face.
"This forum seems much more hateful and toxic than anything I've seen on ASR"
That might be because on ASR there is nothing to debate. In their world, measurements are all that determines whether a product is good or bad, so once they finish "testing" something, that's it.
I don't see so much difference between forums, as the members that make the most noise and have the strongest opinions against products that couldn't possibly have any impact on sound quality probably are the same..
I myself tried to have an open minded discussion on asr , it took one post then the 🪓 .
I deleted my account on asr as I was reminded that I would be better of on Audiogon by another asr member (I'm afraid some of the asr fanatics followed me here 😱).
This is my experience with ASR and some of their members .
I don't post much here unless I actually have experience in the subject discussed .
As newbie in the audiophile hobby, most of the energetic conversations seem to be focused on equipment and personal philosophies regarding music reproduction. I never see that in the Music discussions. The Audiogon music section is fantastic.
Most forums have the problem of “inward apologetics”, in which we forgive the nasty behavior of our ideological allies while “nutpicking” the worst from other spaces. Typically moderators will start to enforce a POV rather than do the hard work of policing the offenders among their regulars. Because they are, more often than not, volunteers from the community and the alternative is more difficult.
How many moderators do you think AG has? Volunteers? This isn’t a church social club it’s a business. I’m pretty sure they have a VERY small staff. 1-3 moderators at the most and they wear their hats 15 more ways. I can tell when a different moderator is in the drivers seat for sure.. Like the weekends. I got hammered by the mods.. I probably deserved it.. LOL
There is an issue with people posting only to antagonize a particular poster on the thread. I see it all the time. Continued harassment nothing done about it. It’s one thing to have an opinion about gear, it’s another to see what goes on, in some of the fuse, cable, class d, Tekton threads. People continuing to dump on the product but worse on the owners of the products.
I offer a reason why I do or don’t like a product. Usually I’ve tried something if I comment on it.. You’ll notice I don’t talk about poison to much, that’s because I haven’t tried to many different kinds..
If you think somewhat like a business person in business with other competitors, you try to let their business practices reflect the quality of their work. Good or BAD.
Not all advertising is good advertising, especially the free kind. Look out for the heroes trying to save you, they may just be nuts!!
Regards
Look at that Ro Bot, that is some serious Bot, Ro, AY?
Merry Christmas or Gift exchange or Holiday or whatever you like.. Especially the newbies.. Welcome to AG...
How enunciating clearly the fact that ONLY tool measurements or subjective listening impression alone CANNOT be rational could EVER be a "universal insult" ?
How refusing to abide by "subjectivist" or "objectivist" credo and dogmas could ever be a "universal insult" ?
How could an appeal to think about psycho-acoustic science could be an insult?
Are you deranged?
My question is not an insult but an answer to your IRRATIONAL rant motivated by copy/paste of posts our of their context WITHOUT ANY ARGUMENT...
With 5 posts behind your assault against rationality and thinking, what must do we think?
I discovered myself the hard way that "subjectivist" and objectivist" cults are mirrorring the complete ignorance of psycho-acoustic and ignorance of the way to embed each piece of gear optimally..
@mahgister: don't mind this guy. It's the same dude with multiple previous banned usernames. He is posting with the username he specifically created to harass me, as it sounds like his "cindy" username may have banned again. Avoid / ignore. Don't engage. It can get a lot worse / uglier
I concur with my friend the mechanic who could repair Santa Claus sleigh better than me...
I consider moderation here almost perfectly well done betwwen freedom fine line and censorship...
I wish to my friend and to the moderators here the best Christmas ever....
How many moderators do you think AG has? Volunteers? This isn't a church social club it's a business. I'm pretty sure they have a VERY small staff. 1-3 moderators at the most and they wear their hats 15 more ways. I can tell when a different moderator is in the drivers seat for sure.. Like the weekends. I got hammered by the mods.. I probably deserved it.. LOL
If you don’t like the forum LEAVE! For the most part we are music lovers looking for opinions and help on music systems. Yes like everything in todays world the forum has been infected with trolls who serve no purpose on the site or in life. Rule number one is do not acknowledge them or engage with them. That is what they want. When no one confirms their existence they will move on to a forum that will. Yes there will always be more coming but I am sure just like know we all know who they are and just skip over their post (@jasonborne).
@mahgister : don't mind this guy. It's the same dude with multiple previous banned usernames. He is posting with the username he specifically created to harass me, as it sounds like his "cindy" username may have banned again. Avoid / ignore. Don't engage. It can get a lot worse / uglier
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