Integrated tube amp vs Tube amp?

Never tried the Mazda 12AX7, thanks for the tip. 

Tried everything else and nothing could beat the Amperex Bugle Boy long plates- so smooth and holographic.  

A good complement to the 12AU7 Bugle Boy Holland.  

The RCA 5814 were an attempt to add some top end but they were a touch to sibilant.  

I do have some Mazda 12AU7s too.  So glad I kept all those small signal tubes. 

forgot about the dark option, thanks for the mention. i may have to order a stereo 100 dark.

i tried everything to brighten the non dark version including all sorts of tubes and a bright preamp but no luck.

Also if you need a bit more top end energy and zing in Rogue amps, the Mazda silver plate 12ax7 (not 5751) is a panacea. It sounds almost like a full component upgrade in the right scenario. I used ’em in Apollos and Apollo Darks, even when not wanting the extra top end for the latter, just because they’re so damned good. They were absolutely a huge upgrade for the original Apollos. I got mine from Brent Jesse. Short of Mazda silvers, the Telefunken ribbed plates is one to try (easier to find and cheaper than Mazda) - NOT the smooth plate kind though, which are warmer.

I’m kinda wondering now if the plain Apollos with Mazdas might have been better than the Apollo Darks lol. The Darks ship with Telefunken smooth plates, which it needs for balanced tonality, but the absence of the Mazda's detail, dynamics, punchiness is quite obvious with that sub. 

@mulveling

forgot about the dark option, thanks for the mention. i may have to order a stereo 100 dark.  

i tried everything to brighten the non dark version including all sorts of tubes and a bright preamp but no luck.  

Long time lurker, first time poster. I am currently running for the last month a MC1502, C2700 into Cornwall IVs.  Honestly, it is the nicest sounding system I have ever had.  I had thought about a MC275, but the MC1502 sounded just a bit nicer/richer to my ears.  I tried a hybrid amp, the MA352 before I returned it and went  with the current combination.  I think something similar would serve you well.

+1 @atmasphere ...as per usual.

@mulveling 

i agree completely but with a cary audio SLP-05 and a Pass XA25 I still miss the sound of the Cronus Magnum II.  I have class A solid state quickness but missing whatever the CM II tube amp did.  And the stereo 100 was not "it".  Too dark.  I liked the polished neutrality of the CM II.  

Wow, very interesting! I guess there's good reason the CM is their huge seller. I'm surprised that the Stereo 100 fell flat for you - I'd have figured that would be an "it" piece to show off the quality of separates. I tried a Stereo 90 long ago and really like it. I have Apollo Darks in my collection and they're anything but "dark" sounding. But there's no arguing with your direct experience! That is some nice separates gear your CM II has gone up against.

Separates are usually better in the long run but you need to be practical too (e.g. space, upgrade possibilities years down the road).... You also need to know how to pair them properly...  

I prefer integrated tube (Rogers 65V-1) due to its simplicity.

the main thing is to get a balance - you already have lamps ... when there are too many - it can be bad ... anyway - the only way is to try different devices in your system

@mulveling 

i agree completely but with a cary audio SLP-05 and a Pass XA25 I still miss the sound of the Cronus Magnum II.  I have class A solid state quickness but missing whatever the CM II tube amp did.  And the stereo 100 was not "it".  Too dark.  I liked the polished neutrality of the CM II.  

truth be told I miss the sound of the Cronus Magnum integrated.  The only thing it was ultimately missing is that last ounce of speed and dynamics compared to my current tube preamp / solid state amp.  But the overall sound was often simply gorgeous, something hard to find regardless of your system.  

From what I've heard from the modern Rogue separate preamps, they'll give you exactly that speed and dynamics, but not really any lush beauty. Other preamps can do that, though. You have more options for amazing sound with different separate combinations, but it's also true that it's a lot more money AND there's more opportunity for missteps / bad combinations. 

Sharing my history I moved on from a Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum II into a foray of separates- 

(2) rogue audio tube preamps, rogue audio, parasound and pass power amps, cary audio tube preamps.  

truth be told I miss the sound of the Cronus Magnum integrated.  The only thing it was ultimately missing is that last ounce of speed and dynamics compared to my current tube preamp / solid state amp.  But the overall sound was often simply gorgeous, something hard to find regardless of your system.  

OP, you have a nice Mac Stack with a tube pre-amp. I say go for the Cornwalls and get that itch scratched. but don't throw away your Tritons just yet. 

I guess I am asking will I get more performance ,for my money, by getting just tube amp?

     Yes!

An additional advantage of going with separates is you can have the power amps be monoblocks. This can allow you to place them closer to the loudspeakers, allowing for shorter speaker cables. With tube amplifiers in particular, this can really help improve bass impact and the ability to pick out vocals. When you have monoblocks the amplifiers won't share power supplies either- this can result in lower intermodulation distortion, which causes the system to sound smoother and more detailed.

There are 2 schools of thought on preamps:  Preamp should "add to sound quality" and "preamp should be invisible".  

Integrated tube amps usually are looking for the 2nd path to success.  So if you're in that school of thought, integrated tube amps may be the way for you to go.

If an integrated amp uses a 12au7 for the preamp stage, which is pretty common, it's definitely NOT going to sound invisible. 

There are 2 schools of thought on preamps:  Preamp should "add to sound quality" and "preamp should be invisible".  

Integrated tube amps usually are looking for the 2nd path to success.  So if you're in that school of thought, integrated tube amps may be the way for you to go.

If you're in the first school, then separates may be the way to go.

That second school of thought is likely where we get “synergy” from.
(Bright horns, and warm amps, etc.) 

Personally I want everything to be transparent and not spicing things up, and then using spoonfuls of yogurt and cucumber slices to cool it all down.

So we are back to wondering what speakers the OP wants to head towards in order to spice things towards making the “Synergy of the flaws” balance out.

(IMO)

There are 2 schools of thought on preamps:  Preamp should "add to sound quality" and "preamp should be invisible".  

Integrated tube amps usually are looking for the 2nd path to success.  So if you're in that school of thought, integrated tube amps may be the way for you to go.

If you're in the first school, then separates may be the way to go.

Jerry

I am using McIntosh 302 amp now. I wanted to experience “tube” sound and was thinking of trying “horn” sound also by getting a pair of Klipsch Cornwall 4 s. Currently have Goldenear Triton 1s and Ohm 5 Mk2s.

I suppose you can choose speakers based upon the amp, or the amp based upon the speakers.

At this point thinking about whether you want an integrated amp or stereo amp, or monoblocks seems a bit premature… IMO.

What is wrong with the golden ear or the Ohm speakers? Or what can be improved on?

In most cases, I would say yes - you'll get more performance from a pure tube amp. Tube integrated amps often have very simplistic preamp & volume stages in order to fit into the same box & budget. Simplistic is fine, but...if you hear an ARC Reference 6 or VAC Master, you will know what a big box pre can do (neither of these will come close to fitting into an integrated). The power amp section of an integrated could also be compromised a little for those reasons. Having to use an extra set of interconnects sucks, but still worth it imo. 

The biggest stopper to most people going to separates is having to buy 2 components up front instead of one - but you've already got the preamp. Go for the tube power! You'll also gain more flexibility down the road - sometimes the brand-matching pre & power aren't actually the best sonic match in your system, to your ears.

I am using McIntosh 302 amp now. I wanted to experience “tube” sound and was thinking of trying “horn” sound also by getting a pair of Klipsch Cornwall 4 s. Currently have Goldenear Triton 1s and Ohm 5 Mk2s.

Usually the amp is powering speakers, and the speaker impedance comes into play at some point.
If they are super sensitive, then don’t bother with the amp… IMO.

What is the sensitivity and impedance profile (or rated and minimum ohms)?
That will help as a way to provide some useful recommendations.

For instance, if it is those big Moab’s, then get a big class-D.

I have a McIntosh C2700 with a MC275. The music the pours from my speakers is so easy and effortless. It's like liquid gold. I never ever get listening fatigue with this combination. I did listen to a C2700 with a MC462 at the dealer. Fantastic combination if you want a stronger or bass presence with more authority. 
The Tube pre-amp / SS amp combination absolutely has a different sound characteristic than all tube. I went with the tube amp because I just personally favored it over the two. I really enjoy that lush warm blanket of sound it creates.  

Only one word of caution. Be wary of the tube rolling rabbit hole if you go all tubes. It is real and it goes on forever..... 

Integrated amps are usually purchased in order to save space or compromise in some fashion. If you like the very distinctive sound of McIntosh, then definitely get a tube amp. Tube amps have a real musicality and realism hard to achieve with solid state.

Tube pre with SS amp is a champ!!!

What is your budget?

There are a lot of options…

I suppose it depends on the particular amps in question, but since you have a tube preamp I'd be inclined to lean toward a straight tube amp.

If it were me,I would get a tube amp.  If you’re going to get an integrated,sell the pre.  You’re pre would more than likely pair nicely with a Mac tube amp. Just the peanut gallery chiming in.