Integrated amp: Component weight

Ayre's Site: EX-8 2.0

Speaker Output:

100 watts per channel continuous into 8 ohms
170 watts per channel continuous into 4 ohms

original ask was for 200 to 300 wpc. I considered 200 wpc a minimum, yes?

Interesting topic.

If I am OP, I choose house sound first,not the weight, as I can't carry it, I will ask for help,it is the one time moving and it is not a big deal.

Different brands make very very different sound and individual people always have their perfection. 

@cundare2 Here is another suggestion for your Harbeth. I have heard Harbeth with the very best Luxman gear and liked it, but I knew I would not like it long term. It was too lush. Lots of people like that type of sound and the KRELL K-300i integrated sounds as good as that very expensive Luxman stack I demoed.

I owned the K-300i and it can be bought used for around $6000. The DAC is very good, you can do better with an external DAC. The RJ45 streaming was great (not as good as fibre optic) but great for RJ45. The ROON READY was a delight, especially the volume control from my iPhone (it is done as analog on the integrated).

The KRELL is sonically the opposite of the Benchmark stack. The KRELL weighs 52 lbs. Read the Stereophile review of the Boulder 866 and see what they say about the KRELL in comparison. The KRELL is a great integrated. I liked it even more than the CODA CSiB I owned.

K-300i Integrated Stereo Amplifier Technical Specifications – Krell (krellhifi.com)

Not listed above but the first 90 watts are in Class A. It is the KRELL's cool running iBias Class A which sounds as good as my CODA #16 traditional Class A.

What associated equipment was in your system when you were evaluating the Benchmarks? Are you talking about the LA4 and AHB2?

If I went that route, I’d probably add a DAC3 and some third-party streamer, so I’d be getting into the $15,000 range, not including interconnects and power cords. At this point, weight, SQ, and connectivity are more important than cost, though. (Within reason, of course!)

With the Benchmark gear I have much better experience with their low cost XLR between amp and preamp ($200 for 20 feet). I use Audience XLR and RCA from the source to the preamp. The BM gear is AES48 compatible (for XLRs). I use Benchmark XLR from the DAC3B to the preamp. Though the DAC3B is not the end all of DACs (a little hot but good with Harbeth). The only place where I really want non-BM cables is the speaker cable (I use Audience FrontRow). The BM speaker cable is good on a bright speaker.

Using non-BM power cables is something I also never do on BM gear. Other gear, I use non-stock cables. Reviewers may say different, but this how my ears hear the BM gear. I even have some 15-foot amp power cables from BM, very useful, cheap, and sounds fine.

On the used market you can hookup the 3 BM components for under $6500 (with BM cables). The form factor is rather small with all 3 units stacked on top, which is fine to do with BM gear.

Im all about the weight. Many praise the Benchmark AHB2 that weighs 5lbs. No way will I buy something like that. It all about the heft imo.

I think it is all about the speaker. My current speaker had the same bass response with the AHB2 (stereo) and the 110 lbs CODA #16 (a bass monster on all speakers I tried)

Easy. Aestheix Mimas. Weighs a bit less than 50 lbs. has five analog inputs which can be configured for true balanced or RCA. Can be ordered with a very good DAC or Phono board or both. Hybrid, tube preamp solid state power amp. Under $10k with the digital board. 150 wpc and almost 300 wpc into 4 ohms. I have one driving Dynaudio Heritage Special’s . Has a good headphone amp that can be upgraded. FYI I had a Devialet. The Mimas is better IMO

Im all about the weight. Many praise the Benchmark AHB2 that weighs 5lbs. No way will I buy something like that. It all about the heft imo.

I just heard the Line Magnetics integrated tube amplifier 22wpc. Simply stunning.  Transformers are what makes it sing.  $4800 and you will fall in love.

Happy Listening.

@petar3

Actually, if I went with Hegel, the model I'd be most interested in would be the H590, currently selling for about half the price of its H600 replacement, which would leave plenty of room for an external DAC/streamer to replace what is reputed to be the 590's not-so-great internal DAC.  I'm sure that this would be a great fit with my system.  Unfortunately, the weight would be an issue.

What associated equipment was in your system when you were evaluating the Benchmarks? Are you talking about the LA4 and AHB2?

If I went that route, I’d probably add a DAC3 and some third-party streamer, so I’d be getting into the $15,000 range, not including interconnects and power cords. At this point, weight, SQ, and connectivity are more important than cost, though. (Within reason, of course!)

Glad to hear that your surgery went well overall.  I'm looking at something similar, both upper & lower spine, but at this point, have no idea what to expect.  It's hard to find good surgeons in this state, at least on a par with the best in places like NYC, Boston, or Chicago, so I'm hesitant to pull the trigger.  But I definitely don't want to have to deal with a hundred-pound chunk of iron in the house if & when I do have to go under the knife.

Hi @cundare2 

i am sure all back surgery different.  My first replaced two lumbar discs, and I was laid up 5 weeks.  I could get up and down steps though.  My second replaced two cervical discs and had II had a laminectomy and foramenotomy  of two more lumbar discs.  This has been much easier, out of action for one weeK.  Good luck!

 I have had the benchmarks in for direct comparison in my system, and they were dry and sterile compared to my Audionet Max amps by far.  Of course they are smaller and less expensive. Again good luck.   I like your Ayre thinking.  Let us know!

i have similar speakers, Stirling Broadcast LS3/6, and two Hegels, 390 and 90. Yes, the sound with 390 is better, but 90 does an excellent job, too. I would suggest that you might not need as much power and that Hegel 190 or similar would do just as well -- old guy, old ears, likely you wan't hear the difference. 

Just curious, where did you see the EX8 is 300wpc? It’s rated at 100wpc into 8ohm and 175 (tested it clipped at 170) into 4 which suggests a fairly lightweight current delivery that would get shaky into lower ohm loads. Do your Harbeths have difficult load requirements? That could shape (narrow) your search significantly.

@fastfreight What is recovery from back surgery like? I’m wondering how long it will be until I can even traverse the stairs to my home theater.

How come you don’t like the Benchmarks? I’ve never heard them, but they seem to be pretty popular in this thread. I’m open to any first-hand comments about a candidate component’s performance in a particular system configuration.

Oh, and by "compromise," I’m thinking more like Bryston instead of Hegel, or a HiFi Rose streamer instead of an Aurender.  I have $6000 Harbeths, not Chronosonics, so my goal is that my amplification won't any longer be the weakest link.

@cundare2 I totally get it!  I had my second back surgery 11 days ago.  My first back surgery 20 months ago.

Music Is my nervana and when I came home I was so glad to have it!  don't compromise too much on sound for the weight; you will regret it!  You 
CAN do amazing things with lighter separates;  the naim combo is an example, small monoblocks (Audionet Amps) and a light preamp.  Or just figure out how to get help.  In the end, you will (perhaps) be happier with amazing sound,  Not the Benchmarks...(my opinion).  My amps and preamp are so heavy that I will never even try to move them...maybe that is a smart way to go ha ha!

@fastfreight Thanks for the suggestions.  But again, I'm looking for something lighter, 20-30 pounds would be ideal 15lbs even better.  Things are getting worse for my back and as of yesterday, I'm looking at major surgery, with uncertain results.  So the last thing I need to do is buy a 50-70-lb block of expensive metal.  There's no one here who could help me move the unit and a box that heavy would make my racking system unmanageable.  So the weight limitation, unfortunately, is not negotiable.

The most tempting exceptions are the 49lb Hegel H590 & H600, which are such a perfect fit that I WANT to make an exception.  But even in that case, I'm still sticking to my guns and trying as hard as I can to select something lighter, even if that means compromising on sound or functionality.  It's frustrating, but that's the hand I've been dealt.  I'm not gonna whine, I'm gonna just do the best with what I've got to work with.

Still working on this spreadsheet, but right now (I'm going in alphabetic order) Benchmark & Bryston separates look like contenders.  We'll see.

Hello @cundare2 !

You have some nice options and seem headed on the right track with Ayre, the older on newer Naim 200 series and Coda.  I have heard two others that I like.

The Audionet Watt weighs 55 pounds but is very very good.  It checks all the other requirements. I have heard this in my system and it takes a lot of money and weight to top it.  At their rating of 167w @ 8 ohms I would not worry about power.  GTT Audio often has a show demo of this model.

The other are the Soulnote A2 and A3.  the A3 is too heavy at 66 lb but super nice. I own the A2, and even rated at 100 watts it punches well above that.  My speakers are more efficient though.   But very sweet sounding SS integrateds.  I got my A2 barely used for 4k.  I see them very occasionally for 5k. 

Good Luck!  Fun!

I would not worry about the weight as you probably won’t move much-find some one to help lift and place it.

Are there any hybrid tube/ class-d offerings on the market that would work?

@deone Yes, the EX-8 V2 is a monster, beautifully and innovatively designed, with boatloads of connectivity. And it’s incredibly light for a 300wpc Class AB amp, thanks to the late Charlie Hansen’s "diamond" output-stage topology. I’m very impressed & agree with you 100%.

The EX-8 would have easily addressed all my requirements and even includes a terrific DAC that is heads & shoulders above any integrated DAC I've seen in a $10-15K integrated -- and probably most $2-3K standalone DACs. (I can't speak to that from first-hand experience, though.)

Unfortunately, there are non-technical reasons I didn’t go for it from Day One, which I’m not at liberty to discuss here. So I’m not considering an Ayre purchase just this second, despite the fact that I’d love to have one inhouse.  If a few things resolve at some point, however, I'm sure that I'd be happy for a long time with an EX-8.

+1 to many suggestions for Ayre EX-8 v2.  I have this with the streamer/dac cards installed and it is ~24lb one-box solution that does streaming, DAC, preamp, and amp.  It sounds fantastic with my Sonus Faber speakers.

I’m thinking of buying one from a dealer who has a 30-day return policy. It’s such an unusual piece of gear (and so lightly documented) that I might have to have one inhouse to even figure out if I can use it. This is the first amp I’ve seen that requires users to run a configuration program on a computer, store the config on an SD card, and then have the card inserted into the amp every time it boots up. It digitizes all incoming signals and subjects them to very heavy duty, system-specific, DSP in order to match its output to specific speakers systems and phono cartridges. So from a tech/gizmo perspective, it’s pretty fascinating.

How this will translate into sonics, especially on my system, I have no friggin’ idea. But reviews in the Stereophile/TAS mags give its sound quality extraordinary praise, at least among components in the $10K range.

OTOH, I’m just as likely at this point to KISS & go with one of the alternatives suggested in this thread (and enumerated a few messages above). Configuring the Devialet into my multi-channel, 50% analog-source, system, may be too complicated -- or even impossible.

Ya gotta love this hobby.

@cundare2,

I am not familiar with Devialet equipment but their integrated amp looks interesting. Will this amp work for you?     

@hgeifman

I'm very familiar with the sonic shortcomings of most Class D electronics.  In fact, that's one of the big motivators for my current upgrade: my current amplifiers are all Class D.  But don't make the mistake of thinking that, because the Devialet technically incorporates elements of Class D design, that it's what we typically think of as "Class D," or even as amps identified as "Class AD."  This circuit design, as the patent describes in detail, is something new, combining a PWM digital signal fed into a Class A output stage.  The split is also more along the lines of current amplification and voltage amplification stages, which is quite different than the Class D we've all grown to know and hate.

If you have the technical background to understand it, I'd suggest taking a look at that patent -- and the other patents that Devialet has filed re: this architecture.

Several people above have suggested class D amps because of their light weight.  I have owned several class D amps and do not like their sound quality.  I suggest you audition any class D amps on your list before you purchase them. 

If I were in your shoes, I'd look at: Ayre EX-8 (24 pounds), Aavik I-180 or I-280 (20 pounds), Hegel H390 (40 pounds), or CODA CSiB....but that is definitely pushing it at 50 pounds.

@geof3

Thanks for bringing up those points, but I have an engineering background, so I’m well aware. By "switcher," I was referring to placing a higher-end analog preamp in front of the Devialet, primarly to handle (or "switch") my analog sources, since a Devialet would have only one analog input in my system. The pre-amp might, e.g., be something like a Benchmark or Pass Labs. Since the Devialet digitizes all analog signals, and since any line-level analog input will have to be amplified at some point in the pre-Devialet signal path, I’m not concerned about degradation when we’re talking about a context like this. Hardly "goofy."

As for running the speakers in parallel, jeez, of course, I’d be using my sub’s high-impedance input, orders of magnitude higher than that of my loudspeakers.

The bigger issue with running two sets of speakers from the Devialet’s single set of amplified outputs is that both speakers will be playing signals that have been processed by Devialet’s SAM function. That may extend my Harbeth’s low end down an octave (I wish, but maybe) but would also alter the phase and EQ of the signal sent to my sub. What makes this a credible solution is the fact that my sub incorporates DSP-based room-correction, which Devialet believes would handle a SAM-enhanced signal as easily as one that was not. And who knows, the sub might even sound better with the Devialet’s bottom-boosted, phase-compensated output as a starting point!

But don’t get me wrong. I’m still not married to Devialet. It would be nicer, as you imply, to have a less-complicated, maybe less-expensive, one-box solution from the likes of Ayre or Hegel.

Working on my spreadsheet tonight, and what'll pop out when I can review the numbers on one page, I have no idea.

If anyone is interested in Devialet’s unique amplifier tech -- a new spin on other companies' less-than-perfect approach to Class AD -- here’s one of Devialet's key patents, forwarded to me by a very helpful Devialet rep.

<search for patent #US7545212B2 on Google Patents>

No need to complicate your setup with switchers and what not. Any device you put in the signal path has the possibly (likely hood) of degrading your overall sound. Keep it simple. Plenty of great options without all the goofy stuff.
 

If you wire subs in parallel that aren’t designed to take a “high level” input, you will double your impedance and have a full frequency signal going to your sub, there are ways to solve these issues, but it’s clunky and won’t give you your best sound. Any amp with a pre out generally will work, or get a sub like a REL that has options for either connection type.

Devialet update:

The Expert Pro integrateds can be configured to provide HT bypass and either fixed or variable-level line output, by cannibalizing other connections.

So that would take care of any bypass & headphone requirements.

As for the subwoofer, I guess I can always wire up an active sub in parallel with my main loudspeakers.  That's something I haven't done in a very long time -- but assuming that Devialet's unusual Class "AD" output stage doesn't t have some sort of histrionic reaction, maybe that puts it back in the running.

I have a tech question on this issue for Devialet support, but I'd be surprised if that didn't work.

Still gonna build the spreadsheet b/c the integrated choice is only half the issue.  I still need to figure out if I'll need an analog preamp/switcher in front of it, and will need to add some sort of streamer or DAC/streamer.

Slowly inching closer, slowly, slowly, slowly, one step forward...  It's like the pace of "Oak Island."

Rotel?  That's new.  I'll add it to the spreadsheet, although I've never heard a Rotel product.

Another missing entry is Gold Note.  The IS-1000 has been reviewed quite favorably, but I see that the company has a new IS-10 integrated that clocks in at around 9 pounds (!), ~120wpc into 6 ohms.  Maybe I'll add both to the list.

And this short list is sure starting to get long!  The gods destroy you by granting you your fondest wishes...

@cundare2,

How about the Rotel RA-1592MKII integrated amp at 38.8 pounds?  The RA-1592MKII delivers 200 Watts of Class AB output into 8 ohm speakers supporting your favorite analog, digital, XLR, aptXTM and AAC Bluetooth, PC-USB with MQA and Moving Magnet Phono stage inputs. The audiophile grade 32-bit/384kHz DAC and precisely tuned circuits delivers an unprecedented sound stage with exacting positioning.

Click here for MFG info:

I'm impressed with the amount of helpful, educated information I got in response to my question.  My short list is not quite as short now: Bryston, Benchmark, Simaudio, Devialet, Naim, Hegel, Ayre.  Maybe STR (which I'm unfamiliar with).

I have a blank Excel spreadsheet waiting to be filled in.

And, no, even if letting electronics determine which speakers you own made sense, I'm not opening a barrel of worms by even thinking about replacing my 14-lb Harbeths. As a former long-time Quad ESL-57 owner, I'm impressed with how close they come to emulating some of the ESL's best qualities.  They're remarkably accurate from 40-50Hz up and -- one reason why I was originally interested in the Devialet -- are said to extended down well into subwoofer territory when playing Devialet-SAM-enhanced content.  Also, I live in an area where finding a house with even a 15'x20' room for under $2M is tough.  So "small & light" applies to speakers, too.  So that's what I have to work with.

Also, with no friends or family within thousands of miles, finding someone to help me move audio gear around is as impossible as flying all day to visit a dealer or trade show.

Anyway, thanks again for everyone's help, regardless of whether a recommendation made it onto my list. 

And I'm still open to more suggestions.

+1, How about a Benchmark stack consisting of Benchmark LA4 Line Amplifier, the Benchmark AHB2 Power Amplifier and the Benchmark DAC3 HGC? If you need more power, you can always purchase a 2nd amp

I own the Benchmark DAC3 HGC and like it very much.

I suggest you call Benchmark Media and discuss your requirements and options

Not sure what my STR weighs, but i don't think it's more than 35 and it is superb.

btw, not for OP

the reason I advocate efficient speakers ONLY, it to save WEIGHT/size/heat/cost while increasing placement options (remote beams),

AND easier to try tubes,

AND lower power needs keeps you in a very plentiful and competitive place. Especially probability of finding a great deal on a used item, lower power amps more plentiful, many tube amp options if power needs are reduced. 

Why don't you just get someone to help you lift the thing into place and forget it instead of compromising

cundare2 OP

In the words of Steve Martin, "EXCUSSSSE Me"

I am not advocating anything for you specifically, I simply presented an alternate way of solving it, i.e. step outside, look back in, especially for other people following along.

I don't know a damn thing about modern SS, I'm tubes for life. Thus I recommend that people looking for speakers ONLY consider efficient ones, don't even look sideways at inefficient ones. Your Harbeth's, 86db are exactly what I would avoid!

You love them, they aren't going anywhere, you have the funds, and are willing to consider modern lightweight power, off you go, 

Take an integrated; drop it from a 10 story building, bust it into pieces:

Outboard Power Supplies

Separate Preamp (I say old school features)

Mono Blocks

Separate Power Supplies.

Cables, cables and more cables.

The Sim 340 would be a little under powered for the Harbeths. The new North Collection integrated would be a great option. The H390 sounds great and has pretty much the same overall connectivity as the H590. I’ve owned both. The 590 is currently my main comp. I bought the 590 as it does have a bit more grunt for my hard to drive Alexia’s. The 390 though did fine overall. The 390 is Hegel’s sweet spot for sure. I wouldn’t hesitate on the 390 given your weight requirements. Having said that, the 590 isn’t THAT  much heavier. The Benchmark gear mentioned is fantastic too for its size. They have great DAC options as well as a tiny overall form factor.

Check out Simaudio Moon. I’m not familiar with their integrated amps but I had the 330A stereo amp in my system and it was excellent. Drove my 4ohm 87db speakers without any problems. 
https://simaudio.com/en/product/340i-x-integrated-amplifier/

Hey, new complication.  I just got off the phone with Devialet support, and the rep assured me that the Expert Pro 220 can be configured with HT bypass.  It's not well-documented (like everything else Devialet), but is supported.

He's still trying to figure out how to add headphone & sub outs, though.

D

@cundare2 I was not going to comment because you asked for an integrated. However, since you are open to the Benchmark stack, I was also going to say that would work nicely with the Harbeth’s.

I hear the Harbeths as a bit warm and the Benchmark gear is as neutral as can get. On a warm speaker the synergy could be good. I have a warmish Yamaha NS5000 speaker, and I got the Benchmark AHB2 to try with it. I really wanted to make it work because I like the AHB2 sound. However, I found my CODA #16 better. Surprisingly the bass on a single AHB2 was as good as the CODA #16 (a bass monster) on my speakers. That is not the case with the AHB2 and other more demanding speakers.

I use my Benchmark DAC3B stacked on top of my Benchmark LA4 preamp. The form factor is smaller than most integrated amps. On my warmish speakers this is a winning combination. On a less warm speaker I would change the DAC, but I would use it with the Harbeth.

For your Harbeths, a pair of mono AHB2’s would be the better choice over the single stereo. I am putting mine up for sale later today. However, Benchmark will offer you a 30-day home trial, which is a better choice than buying a used unit blind.

The Hegel 390 is the integrated I would look at pairing with the Harbeth, though the Benchmark DAC3B and LA4 pre are better to my ears. Smaller form factor than the Hegel. You can safely stack all 3 Benchmark components,

Here ya go…

https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/1365-hegel-music-systems-h390-integrated-amplifier-dac

But it does appear to not have enough analog inputs though.

@soix: I’ll see if I can find that Soundstage review. On Audiogon, though, other Hegel owners have told me that there’s a big difference between the analog sections of the 390 & the 590, and there’s a big difference between the DACs of the 590 & 600. Opinions diverge a lot about everything else, and I understand that context (as in associated equipment, power, and room) makes a huge difference, but those two comments have been pretty consistent.

And I could be wrong, but I think the first time I compared the 390 & 590, I found that the 390 did not have all the 590's connectivity options.  (Surprisingly, the same is true of the H600, which is supposed to be a 590 upgrade!)  But I’ll go back & take another look, b/c I'm not sure about that at this point.

@hgeifman   Yes, I was looking at Benchmark & teh LA4 looks like a great little box.  I'd need to add a digital front end, though, and I haven't dug deep enough into that strategy.  But that's a good suggestion.  I don't know much about the AHB2 at this point, but I understand that both components have excellent reputations.

Any interest in Benchmark LA4 Line Amplifier and the Benchmark AHB2 Power Amplifier (12.5 pounds)? The amp can be bridged if you need more power.

Please see this mfg link

From their web site “Benchmark products are designed and built by audio enthusiasts. We are musicians, audiophiles and audio professionals who are passionate about audio quality. We also are passionate about the durability and build quality of our products. Most of our products are designed, assembled, tested, and shipped worldwide from our headquarters in Syracuse, NY, USA, where we have been located since 1985”.

Marantz: This model is closer to 50 pounds and doesn’t have any preamp or sub outputs. So unfortunately not a good fit.

McIntosh: A buddy of mine who is a lifelong Mac fan steered me away from this model. I’m looking for a higher-end upgrade and he felt that the output-stage design, which omits some important feature of higher-end Mac amps (I dunno, I trust this guy & you could look it up), would not make it a good match for what I was trying to do. Also, he strongly recommended upgrading to the DAC2 module, which he says is a major upgrade, but that costs a few thousand dollars and can’t be done at home by an owner. The more expensive Mac integrateds, don’t have these constraints, but they’re probably too heavy for me. So regretfully, I had to rule out a Mac solution.

Somebody asked for a reference point: I’m willing to shell out $10K for an integrated, even if that means another couple thousand for an outboard DAC/streamer. So that’s why I originally looked at products like the Ayre EX-8, Devialet Expert Pro 220, & Hegel H590 or H600.

The suggestion to go with separates is a good one. The only reason I’m just starting to investigate that strategy is b/c, given my other constraints, things start to get really complicated. Sometimes I think I should just simplify things & go for the 80/20 rule: Buy a suite of matched products from the same mfr & not obsess too much about sound quality. HiFi Rose & Bryston come immediately to mind as providing all-in-one solutions, and although neither is quite in the class with the alternatives I’ve been struggling with, they’re both reputed to be not that far off.

FYI there is a review on Soundstage that found there’s not much difference in sound quality between the 390 and 590, especially considering the huge price difference.  You’ll be fine with the 390.

@stuartk Yes, the Hegel is a contender, although I'm looking for something more along the lines of an H590 than a 390, in terms of SQ.  Which gets me back into the 50lb range

@elliottbnewcombjr  Well, I have to respectfully disagree.  Ayre makes a great-sounding 24lb $10K 300wpc integrated that boasts an enormous feature set.  In that same SQ-class, $6-11K 150-250wpc Devialet & Bryston integrateds come in at  13lbs & 26lbs respectively.  Bryston is Class AB & Devialet apparently uses a very different type of D topology that incorporates a Class A output stage.  So good-sounding lightweight integrateds are are out there.  Even if they're outliers.

@cundare2

Harbeth shows with Hegel and vice versa, for whatever that’s worth.

The H390 weighs 44 lbs. 

FYI, I have back issues, too.