@tonywinga are you implying that there is some different standard for music?
I have perfected my network for the nth time
This is the complete summation of my efforts to optimize my network for streaming music. I started out with a combination of wired ethernet and fiber optic and ended with a completely wired network with passive filtration. This article represents only one of the myriad ways that exist to set up a network around myriad component choices. Your network will be a variation on mine as all systems are ultimately unique. It also represents a “no stone unturned” effort around the realization that “everything matters.” As such, I hope it will be a reference to those newly starting out, or to those currently in the process of searching for the best sound.
Let me humbly share my journey of tweaking my streaming network that I built around a Small Green Computer bundle. Back when I initially set up this configuration I modeled it exactly after Michael Lavorgna’s recommendations, now of Twittering Machines. It was stated that wired ethernet contains a multitude of music destroying noises that must be dealt with. Who was I to argue. At the time I didn’t even know what an ethernet switch was (a free- lance musician and private music teacher leading a sheltered existence) .
The bold type face in the following diagrams indicate elements that will be changed and explained as you progress through the text:
FO through wall > ONT,smps > 8tac tenrehte > router,smps > cat 8 > $15 switch,smps > cat 8 > i5 Transporter,smps.
Same switch > cat 8 > FMC,smps > Fiber optic > FMC,smps > cat 8 > ultraRendu with LPS > Pangea Audio Premier SE MKII USB Cable > Benchmark DAC3B.
I had completely solved all power problems in my system to achieve a superior black background. The above still had grunge :
1. I added a LPS with a Y adapter to power both FMC = better
2. I added a LPS to the Transporter = better
3. I replaced the LPS power chords with Pangea Audio AC-14SE MkII = better
4. I wrapped my fiber optical cable in bubble wrap. It seems they are sensitive to vibrations. = better
5. I replaced the 3 post switch cat8 ethernet cables with Pangea Premier SE = way way way better, but STILL some remaining niggly grunge!
6. I had not bought into the $700-$10,000+ ethernet switch mania. I had bought my $15 plastic covered switch from Home Depot. I did try a more expensive switch and sent it back because I could hear no improvement. I rewired post switch and removed the FMCs. LISTENED. Then I added the FMCs back in. They were definitely improving the sound, by a lot!
I ordered a iFi iPower X Ultra Low Noise AC/DC Power Supply for the switch. I took out the FMCs again and installed the new PS. WHAM!! The sound came into complete focus. I reinstalled the FMCs and now a huge amount of grunge had disappeared.
7. The new Pangea Audio Premier XL MKII USB Cable came on the market, which separates out the 5v current wire from the signal wires. Because my Benchmark DAC was using the 5v current, I replaced my previous Pangea Audio Premier SE MKII USB Cable (same wire and connectors) and wiped another smear of noise from the window. This is the single biggest improvement of all these suggestions.
8. Shutting the WIFI off in my primary router and using a wireless access point to regain WIFI for the house. It has resulted principally in opening up the sound-stage : width, depth, with clearer separation. This was the elephant masking the remaining network problems. I subsequently had to go back into my router when I realized I also had to disable the broadcasting of the router name and also disable the WAN feature to get the complete quiet I was looking for. The result was truly startling.
9. I lived with this WIFI tweak for two weeks and I gradually became aware of a persistent coloration that I eventually came to realize was masking the harmonic structure of the music. Once I defined the problem there was no ignoring it. The problem had to be solved.
I started digesting the suggestions in this thread for optimizing an optical filter as I watched the $$$ mount while listing things to buy. I remembered that Mr. Lavorgna moved on by replacing his optical filter with a GigaFOIL. I found a thread on this very subject from that time period. Some level-headed fellow suggested removing the filter for a listen before proceeding. He had become unconvinced of the need for filtering. It was simple to connect an ethernet cable directly from my switch to the Sonore ultraRendu. I pushed play on Qobuz not knowing what to expect. Not only was the coloration banished, but the musicians exploded into the room, the result of expanded dynamic freedom . I was sitting there like a one-year-old that had seen his first Jack-in-the-Box! I stayed up late last evening listening to favorites with profound new revelations at every turn of phrase.
I decided to redo the test I had done previously comparing Dudamel conducting Ives Symphony 2 : Qobuz 24/96 vs CD 16/44.1. The first time I reported that they sounded identical. Now they did not. The Qobuz sounded like a SACD and the CD sounded like a CD, which is how it should sound when comparing different resolutions. The CD sounded like the colored generic-optical stream and the all-wired stream of Qobuz sounded much more open and revealing of a multitude of detail.
My network is now simplified being all wired ethernet with no optical:
FO through wall > ONT,smps > 8tac tenrehte > router,smps > cat 8 > $15 switch with iFi PS > Pangea ethernet > i5 Transporter with LPS
Same switch > Pangea ethernet > ultraRendu with LPS > Pangea Audio Premier XL MKII USB Cable > Benchmark DAC3B.
10. Let’s do some testing. I stumbled on this looking for other advice. It was reported that the ethernet cable direction makes a difference. My findings: definitely!!!!!
Test piece : Qobuz stream 16/44.1 : Elliott Carter "Horn Concerto" which is a highly detailed and dramatic work sure to reveal any differences.
First, I reversed cat8 between ONT and router and a veil was removed!!
Second, I reversed Pangea ethernet between switch and Sonore ultraRendu, and I had it right the first time.
Third, I reversed Pangea between switch and Transporter i5 resulting in severe sonic degradation. Back to the way it was originally.
I don’t have the courage to reverse the 50’ cat8 running under my floor and suspended with cable ties, but extrapolating from what I heard, I think I got it right(grin).
Three out of four isn't bad, but that one reversal has taken things to a new level of dynamic freedom and sonic clarity.
I was grateful for this new discovery because it gave me a foundation to further explore ethernet cabling in my system. Initially I researched out an inexpensive Chinese brand of cat8 that had excellent published specs and just went with it. When I substituted Pangea cables post switch (Every component in my system has to be best value for the dollar, systematically synergistic, and musical sounding. No budget busting or retirement account draining devices allowed!) I got a nice jump in clarity and left it at that. Now, when I had just removed the optical filter from my network, I had an extra Pangea and decided to try it between my ONT and router.
This involved some work as the cable was short necessitating me moving my router much closer to the ONT. I removed the Ethernet cable whose direction had been determined, with a cable whose direction was not determined. I had to try it both ways and then go back and forth between cables a couple of times, and the Pangea won. The Chinese cable sounds wonderful but just a little smooth and a little less open on the top. This is subtle but clear to me, and the more open cable leads to less fatigue in longer listening sessions.
This suggests that the remaining 50' Chinese cable MAY need to be replaced and I ordered a 20m Supra cat8 and Linkup cat8.
11. Ladies and Gentlemen : the results of The Great Ethernet Cable Shootout. The contenders:
a. Pangea Premier SE cat8 26awg Cardas Grade One silver-coated copper, audiophile claims .6m (Audio Advisor)
b. Gigaware cat6 24awg 15m (Radio Shack)
c. Chinese No-name cat8 26awg 15m published specs (Amazon)
d. Linkup cat8 22awg 15m published specs (Amazon)
e. Supra cat8+ 26awg 20m audiophile claims, published specs (ebay)
All cables were individually listening tested for directionality. It was conclusively unanimous, all of the ethernet cables sounded better one way than the other. When installed backwards the principal result was a shrinking of the sound-stage. It seemed the longer the cable the more dramatic the effect. Since none of the cables had marked arrows, the chances of correct installation when testing a new cable was 50%, and that is what I achieved. With a little experience I could hear the narrow sound-stage in less than a minute. These results are corroborated in Audio Quests ethernet cable literature :
Directionality
All audio cables are directional. The correct direction is determined by listening to every batch of metal conductors used in every AudioQuest audio cable. Arrows are clearly marked on the connectors to ensure superior sound quality. For best results, have the arrow pointing in the direction of the flow of music. For example, NAS to Router, Router to Network Player.
After I had corrected the reversed cable in my network, and replaced the short Chinese cat8 with Pangea, the sonic improvements led me to suspect the 15m Chinese cat8 as a potential bottleneck in my network.
ONT > Pangea > router > WINNER of the Shootout > switch > Pangea > Sonore ultraRendu
A. I installed the Gigaware cat6 that I used when I first started to experiment with streaming years ago. The sound was horrible. It reduced the sound of $$$$ equipment to the sound of $$ equipment.
B. The Chinese cat8 was good sounding and I could get Qobuz 24/96 tracks to sound like SACD. When after weeks of reading this thread and working on my network I listened to silver discs again, I found a subtle difference which I felt I needed to pursue, leading to this test.
C. The Linkup cat8 is an industrial strength cable, unusually thick and stiff. My initial impression was it is going to need significant break in time. After 24 hours it sounded better but in no way settled. My impression was that it is a system dependent cable. I am pretty sure it will never be the right fit for me.
D. The SLAM-DUNK WINNER is SUPRA 8. When I dropped this into my system the instincts leading to this test were completely justified. Indeed, the Chinese cable was holding the sound hostage. The sound-stage opened to new unheard of width and depth. The dynamics were so free and the musicians were so present, I wondered why I could not smell their sweat. I did not think to look at my speakers because it was obvious there was no music was emanating from them!
Upon reflection there is a synergy between the Pangea and Supra, a perfect marriage. Each allow the other complete freedom to do its thing. Since I will never hear a complete loom of either Pangea or Supra, I cannot conjecture what they would sound like. I don’t care, because when you have found the love of your life, you will only confuse yourself or do harm by continuing to play the field.
There are so many other brands/models to choose from. Many of you have your favorites. For me the above setup is a cost-effective value-for-performance solution that I always search for.
While I was testing, it was easy to run each ethernet cable to my new wireless access point and stream music to my laptop > iFi usb filter > AudioQuest Dragonfly Red > headphones. In each case, the sonic signature of the cables described above was broadcast over WIFI. This suggests there is no free lunch and a quality cable is needed.
12. I gathered the pieces to replace the smps for my ISP ONT and router:
a. iFi elite 12v 4a PS
b. DC cable Y adapter 18awg
c. Pangea 14awg PC
d. Brickwall surge protector
The installation of them opened the soundstage to cavernous dimensions, brought unbelievable separation to complex music, and a wonderfully beautiful tonality.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I declare my network optimized!
- I am back. After getting through #12 above, I was a tired and worn out audiophile and needed to return to being a melomaniac, my chief feature. After three months of joyfully listening to music on LPs, silver discs, and Qobuz, the audiophile lights started to flash into my attention. I was listening to a CD of Brahm’s Symhony 2, Dohnanyi, Cleveland Orchestra on London. The performance was immersive and the sound was definably solid in audiophile terms. I wondered how it would compare to the streamed 16/44.1 version. Here we go down the rabbit hole. There was no favorable comparison. The streamed sound was bleached and the dynamics impeded. Could this be be the “ethernet noise” that I had so far been unable to quantify? Could I do a quick test on my hypothesis that did not use fiber optics?
My network with possible filtration points: 1,2 etc.
ONT > cat 8 > (5) router (4) > cat 8 > $15 switch > cat 8 > (3) i5 Transporter
Same switch > cat 8 > (2) ultraRendu (1) > USB cable > DAC
I remembered that I had an iFi iSilencer USB noise filter that I had purchased to use with my Audio Quest Dragonfly Red DAC some years ago. I had considered trying it in the big rig several times but considered it unworthy due to prejudice (no one is immune). When I tried it in position 1 above there was a definite improvement. iFi has a new version called iFi iSilencer+, which I ordered and was rewarded with another big step in enhanced performance.
Was I done? I noticed iFi had an iFi LAN iSilencer in their catalogue. I reached out to Ifi support and asked what I could expect if I piggy-backed these in the same network. I got an immediate, thoroughly helpful, and cheerful reply stating I would probably experience “diminishing returns”, but you never really know until you try for yourself. Off went the order. I tried it in position 2 and it was not optimal to have two filters on the in and out of the same device. There was a slight but discernable squashing of the sound-stage. When I moved the LAN filter to position 3 I got a huge improvement that was additive. I moved it from position 3 to 4 and heard a new kind of good while sacrificing the previous good. I ordered a second LAN filter.
Trying LAN filters in positions 3 and 4 and the USB filter in position 1, I was rewarded with an other additive upgrade in performance! I moved one filter from position 4 to 5 and it just sounded wrong. Back to 4 and I was done filtering for $250 plus tax and no new boxes, PS, PC, etc.
- While I was waiting for the various filters to arrive I realized I had not yet experimented with mechanical isolation with my router, PS, surge protector (12 above). I bought another bag of hockey pucks and used stacks of 2 under devices until they were stable and achieved another huge improvement! I also tested elevating the PCs and 20m Supra CAT 8+ ethernet cable from the floors around the router and in the listening room. I was rewarded again. DO IT!
When you are working on your network and pondering your progress, be sure to compare “apples to apples” or CD verses 16/44.1 as your principle test. When they match you have truly achieved something. There are many files on the streaming services that are not the same as the CD so you have to use your experience to make sure you are on the right track. I am now getting as close to equality comparing CD to streaming 16/44.1 as I am likely to get and have probably achieved parity. The improvements I have brought to CD level streaming have scaled nicely to higher resolution streams, opening up sonic vistas that were subtly masked before and now stunning to witness. After all, what is a direct comparison to these resolutions? My streaming has become a truly satisfying experience.
Ladies and Gentlemen, for the second time, I declare my network optimized (until the audiophile lights start flashing)!
Now I am going to jump into the weeds and try to draw some conclusions :
a. There are two (three) ways to skin this network cat : All wired or conversion to all optical, both can sound equally good, although I personally have not heard optimized optical. (In addition there probably are those who have optimized WIFI setups.)
b. I think another reason for my success with all wired ethernet is the installation of a whole-house surge protector. This not only has lowered the line voltage from 126v to around 122v, but also seriously lowered the electrical noise floor. This has benefits for a network being installed in multiple rooms and on different electrical legs.
c. I am sensing that before the WIFI tweak (ref 6 above), the optical filter could remove some, but not all of the upstream noise, suggesting a confirmation of the original poster’s assertion of signal damage. This could and should be investigated by someone with the right equipment and expertise. What happens to the square wave when subjected to intense RFI in these router combos?
d. Wired network optimization now consists of the tried and true audiophile tweaks of quality cabling, ALL THINGS POWER, mechanical isolation, and passive filtering. In addition optical network optimization needs the highest quality converters with additional LPS and PCs, transceivers, and optical cable. This can be effective, but is it necessary? It surely is expensive. (Again, BOTH need to use a separate Wireless-Access-Point.)
e. IMHO, for those newly setting up their network, I highly recommend all Pangea digital cables, the highest model only, available with a 30 day return. Give them a listen against the mega-buck cables or the cheapies you may be using and see what you think.
This post reveals that I make no changes in my system unless I have clearly defined a problem that needs a solution. I listen to music with my trained and experienced musician’s ears. Problems always surface when I get frustrated trying to parse more meaning out of the performance/sound. My system has been meticulously tweaked. When one first starts tweaking, the sonic changes are minute because there are still so many problems masking clarity. However, as you get to the end, each new tweak is a revelation/game-changer. They are harder to find but Oh!-so-rewarding. If I can find anything new I’ll report back.
This was a four year journey. I have learned a ton along the way. I hope it is helpful to someone else.
231 responses Add your response
Many thanks to @fredrik222. Your input was most welcome and informative! In an ethernet cable the wires and pins have an assigned duty. If you are designing an audiophile cable that will sound better, you have to take wire directionality into account in the layout. I postulate that is why in my testing the ethernet cables with audiophile credentials outperformed generic cables. It is easy to imagine how this could impact sound quality, especially on the receive wires! +1 for ethernet directionality! @audphile1 Let me tell you a story. When I was nearing the end of tweaking my network for parity there was a moment when streaming surpassed CD sound ever so subtly. I immediately stopped and squinted at my system. Should this be? What needs to change? I decided to reverse the coaxial cable from my disc player to my DAC and CD again regained supremacy by a little. From there I went on to achieve parity. In the process I elevated both formats. This is one of benefits of serious tweaking. When you found you had difficulty getting CD to match streaming, I think you missed an opportunity to learn some interesting things about your system and music. Parity is a real standard and hard to achieve. “I will keep my ears out for an unturned stone that may need to be pursued.” I am sorry my writing was too poetic for your comprehension. Stated more literally: Not all hypothesis lead to scientific discovery. |
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I have read from true networking experts that while network cabling itself is clearly bi-directional, it’s possible that shielding at one end could create EMF or other electrical issues that could create the illusion of a directional cable. I’ve seen some recommend against shielded connectors. But much of this - tons of little network boxes, USB cable tweaks, different materials in ethernet cables...serpent petroleum in my book. The metal composition of a cable carrying a digital signal cannot effect sound as described. That is not to say don’t keep an open mind. Not everything can immediately be explained by science and engineering (but ultimately must be). But sometimes you just know that the volcano is going to erupt whether or not you sacrifice that virgin. |
@singingg no I didn’t miss an opportunity. as a matter of fact I did try coax from cdt to Bricasti. It was a WireWorld cable (middle of the line). It didn’t make a difference. We can continue looking for things to blame, however, this brings us back to my point about quality of components. Looks like you enjoy tweaking things to see how far you can push the limits to achieve parity. Kind of like whack’em all. Have fun!!! |
@jji666 a cable cannot create emf, there needs to be some sort of radiation, internal or external, and the cable can be influenced or even act as an antenna. This goes for all cables. |
@mahler123 +1 well said and very funny! @tonywinga Great Recommendations! |
Glad to help. I’ll add something more. When I first started streaming, I burned all of my CDs to the music server SDD as FLAC files via DBPoweramp. I have a great CD transport but after upgrading the USB cable between the music server and DAC, I am hard pressed to hear a difference between the CD and its FLAC file. I listened to whole songs and I did A/B back and forth and to me they are really close. If I had it to do over I would not get a CD transport but the old school side of me takes comfort seeing the transport in my system. I started streaming with a basic ethernet cable from the router to the music server. Streaming did not sound anywhere close to CD or FLAC with critical listening. Streaming hi res came close to the CD sound. Tried a few things but the big jump was adding fiber optic between the router and music server. For about $75 this is the biggest improvement per dollar to be had. Adding Linear Power Supplies to the FMC’s makes an improvement- $170+ and using Finisar SFP’s makes an improvement- $150. While these add ons dilute the improvement per dollar they get streaming very close to CD sound. Adding in silver plated wire ethernet cables is another step up- $150 for three short Ag plated Cu wire ethernet cables. Then I tried the LHY-8 internet switch. This is a no gimmick audio grade switch. You would think that having both fiber optic and the switch between the router and music server would be the ultimate, but it’s not. The fiber optic has to come out. Together the dynamics sounded compressed. Alone, the LHY-8 sounds just a bit better than the fiber optic setup, but it’s not a big step up. It’s a decision if you want the best sound possible vs the best sound for the money. I feel like I got my money’s worth with the LHY-8 because of how much it improved the picture on my TV when streaming video. It was not a subtle change. I got a twofer. |
@tonywinga you lost your money, that we can agree on, and someone made money off you. |
@fredrik222 , why are you in attack mode? Aren't we entitled to spend our money any which way we choose? |
@kennyc sure you are, like I said, we all can agree that someone had tonywinga for his money. What he got for it, however isn’t debatable, there are facts and fantasy world, and that is where we get to newbies who think you have to buy directional Ethernet cables with $8k “audio” switches with external master clocks for streaming to sound decent, which is 100% false. |
Yes...for the record I wasn't saying a cable could create EMF, merely that I have seen bona fide networking experts mention that there are shielded and unshielded ends to network cables and that the status as one or the other could create the illusion of a directional cable depending on the components at each end.
I agree with this but not how it's said. Sarcasm and disrespect aren't effective rhetorical tools. Plus there is always the possibility that a different configuration changes something but that the causes are misdiagnosed. That's the real reason why I feel these discussions can be useful, if people would contain their attack modes just a tad. But I do think it's important for those seeking digital audio knowledge on the forum to be aware that there are severely differing opinions on whether network and USB tweak devices really do anything. Especially with network, I come down squarely on the side of "no" because the logic behind network data flow simply doesn't allow for it. If there is a streamer that is affected by some interference from upstream, in 2023 that is a flaw in the streamer.
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Daily Gibberish from singingg @fynnegan Hello sir. Yes the Bridge recording of the Eliott Carter Horn Concerto is a masterpiece. When doing the cable testing I got to listen to it many times and often let it play through because it is so good. I have been a Carter fan since the early 70s when I was in music school, the same time I discovered Varese. I soon branched out into a complete exploration of all the composers who were themselves exploring advanced personal musical languages. I regularly pull out those LPs for a trip down memory lane. @tonywinga Hello sir. I am so glad you are posting on this thread because I know you to to have an open mind and have been willing to test tweaks. Thanks for "covering my back " several times so far. Much appreciated. You were recently unkindly attacked and I condemn that. What I found interesting in your last post is that you removed the optical filter and achieved a similar result I reported in 9) of my OP. When you are hearing well I suggest you try the Parity Test with 16/44.1 material that you trust. It may tell you that you are finished or suggest further pathways. LOL The last tweak that I installed in my system was the three iFi passive filters. Last night I removed them for a listen and after a short time they were quickly reinstalled. They are keepers. It would be interesting to compare the strategic placement of these filters at various network points vs. one uber-expensive filter at one point vs filtering inside the switch vs optical filtering. Maybe someone has the curiosity and opportunity to test some of these and report back. That would take some time and effort. I find it ironic that the posters that stand behind their scientific educations are unwilling to practice science: hypothesize, test, and draw and report conclusions. It is very tiring to endure their opinions when it would be most helpful if they could verify others experiments and conclusions. I spent the morning listening to Havergal Brian Symphony No. 1 "Gothic", Lenard conducting massive forces that greatly exceed Mahler "Symphony of a Thousand." Marco Polo captured the space of Czechoslovak Radio (Bratislava) in stunning detail with sound-stage depth, pinpoint spatial cues and clarity, and massive dynamics. I recommend this as a system test with the benefit of the glorious music that is better than Mahler’s worst symphony. It even sounded good on my system with (according to some) cheap gear. Cheers! |
I dont use streaming.... But i admire your determination and creative explorative mind... I did the same in my acoustic room... Dont bother with negative mind and less creative people... The fun is not buying.... The fun is to embed in the right way what we bought... There is not a single piece of gear i did not modify in my own way...
Consumers mind dont get it.... Price means nothing in audio, anybody can buy a 50,000 bucks speakers.... Acoustic and the way we learn how to listen and use the ears as tools only matter... There is three perspective and three vocabulary in audio not one : audio vocabulary centered on gear, music vocabulary centered on music concepts, and acoustic and psycho-acoustic vocabulary... The three vocabulary and experience meet in some central perception as timbre... If we dont experiment and did not optimize our audio system , we will never learn how these three perspectives meet together but keep their autonomous meanings... |
Uhh...the LHY-SW-8 is not an $8k audio "switch". It only costs $594. All the best, |
I doubt many here would argue against "decent", but in this high-end audio hobby we are after sonically "better" or "different" which is beyond "decent".
That's your assumption on how newbies think suggesting newbies are easily duped into spending considerable cash. 7 years ago I was a newbie so every component purchase was a stretch. Over time I "very reluctantly" realize that I had to budget for quality cabling to match the level of my components to avoid sonic bottlenecks. Audiophile switches, ethernet filters, LPS, master clocks, etc can make the sonics "better", but I think it's an unreasonable stretch to assume newbies will assume it's "required". Newbies are no different from us - the more the cash outlay the more we scrutinize the purchase. Newbies are not children. |
@kennyc that’s the point, newbies read threads like this, and then the threads about how to start with streaming, and so on. Complicated, expensive and snake oil.
no, they do not. It is physically impossible. It is 100% snake oil. |
I just make my 100 bucks computer speakers very much better with acoustic in my audio corner in the basement... I used some old tweaks of mine too... ( my main audio system is only headphone because i lost my acoustic room selling my house ) What is better : claiming like the Pope that the truth is this and not that , or motivate people to try fun and practical experiments? With 50,000 bucks speakers no one add cheap tweaks to make them better... But with bad sound low cost speakers v why not trying to improve them ? It is possible to improve their potential and optimize them...Why mocking those who tried ? This is an example of simple experiment with deep consequences : «You are standing in a field looking at the stars. Your arms are resting freely at your side, and you see that the distant stars are not moving. Now start spinning. The stars are whirling around you and your arms are pulled away from your body. Why should your arms be pulled away when the stars are whirling? Why should they be dangling freely when the stars don’t move? » Now why do you think such a seeming preposterous question /hypothesis/experiment could not have very deep scientific consequences ?
Do you think the audio world , with three perspecteive, three vocabulary involved, aidio engineering, music, acoustic and psycho-acoustic, cannot be experimented with simple experiments like the one above which illustrated the root of the Mach principle ? Are you so sure you know what "a sound" is ? I can assure you that you dont know what a sound is because science is in debate about "sound" right now , not only about competing theories about hearing but also about the nature of sound qualities themselves... Why forbid anyone and mocking with any experiments if he do it to learn and for fun ? Is it because you had the money to buy a 80,000 bucks system or is it because you dont like others to have fun in learning ? or is it simply by conditioned mass thinking about what is a recognized phenomenon and what it is not ?
I myself learned in audio mostly by experiments.... Half of what i learned by mass conditioned thinking is not true in audio...
Who must put a tin foil hat on his head ? Sleepwalkers with their dogmas or awaked experimenting people ? By the way i never bought a "tweaks"... i created mine... As i did yesterday with cheap speakers sounding now better... I even used quartz... Will you mock me ? I learned so much about acoustic and psycho-acoustic and with my homemade tweaks that i became now a very bad consumers...I replace obsession with gear by basic knowledge... I know there is no linear relation between audiophile sound experience and the price of gear... |
Daily Gibberish of singingg
Today there are a couple of topics I want to address, and unfortunately, a couple that I do not. Onward.
Last night I thought I would revisit that old friend for pleasure. I hit play and was astounded at the improvement in the SQ of my system. The solo horn was in my room, seemingly THERE. The layering of the orchestra was vastly clearer revealing a myriad of subtle previously hidden details which abound in Carter’s art, and the timbre of the Gestalt was a joy. What had changed? Simply steps 12,13,14 in the OP, all which are easy to implement. This was more confirmation of the correctness of my journey than I could have expected. Today I am still emotionally vibrating from the experience.
Recently I wanted to revisit my recordings of Bruckner symphonies on LP. Symphony No. 2, Haitink, Concertgebouw on Philips caught my attention. I did not remember when I purchased it, but putting it on my stereo table I was enthralled with the beauty of the performance and at the accomplishments of the recording and mastering and pressing engineers. I have heard this symphony live twice in Cleveland’s magnificent hall conducted by Dohnanyi and by Welser-Most. I simply heard details that I could not hear live nor on the half-dozen or so CD versions I own and cherish. This is a truly reference recording. Let’s do some comparisons.
Haitink recorded the Bruckner symphonies in their entirety for the first time in the 70’s on analog tape. On LP I own 0,1,2,7 & 8. On CD I own 4 which I abandoned to my shelves as bad CD sound affording no joy. I checked Qobuz and they have the complete set lovingly transferred to 24/96. The sound of 4 was the worst of the set, both on CD and streaming. It was probably an early recording or a different engineering team. Just a sonic flop. However, comparing the stream of 2 to the LP, the sound was a joyous match, PARITY. This is as close to an “apples to apples” comparison as one is as likely to find. I am now satisfied.
When I started to set up my end-game system five or six years ago, I knew some of my excellent-in-the-day components were tired and technology had marched on. My plan has always been to set up a very satisfying system and use it for 20-30 years and update it as time and circumstances dictate and allow. This time I had two additional objectives: keep as many of the costly front ends as possible and only replace them if there is catastrophic failure; and to set up a streaming network for the first time. As I worked my way week by week I came to realize I was going to tweak-until-I-dropped trying to achieve PARITY.
At the start of the journey my silver disc player was my standard for the best sound, second were LPs, and third was streaming of which I knew next to nothing except what my ears told me.
I will not regale you or anyone with my journey through 5 preamps, 2 amps, 4 DACs, ALL THINGS POWER, mechanical isolation, and cables. I was doing that while tweaking my streaming, the recounting of which brought most to teary-eyed distress. Ah, but life is a journey. I’ll let you know how merciful I am because I did not regale you with all the dead-ends that did not bear a conclusion in my OP!
It may interest some how I tweaked my analogue setup. I have two excellent tables that have been on Stereophile’s class B list and gushed about by TAS in their way. I set one up for mono and the other table for stereo. Both got new cartridges, new phono-stages, motor controllers with LPS and PC, and serious mechanical isolation. In addition the mono had to have the motor replaced. All this resulted in sweet analog bliss.
Replacing and tweaking all these not only brought my system to parity, but I was able to raise the standard of performance of my of the silver disc player and all other components in my system. A rising tide floats all boats. Through all these experiences I certainly gained knowledge, some further understanding, and maybe a thimble-full of wisdom.
CHEERS!
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Thanks for the details @singingg and well said!
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What is this based upon, “your” understanding? If so, are you saying it’s false until proven true? And by extension your understanding is truth for all? There’s a vast chorus of voices who’s empirical evidence (tried it themselves) say otherwise, are they to be dismissed because you don’t understand how it can work? You’re telling them that all their hearing perceptions are all wrong? One of the top DACs in the world, the dCS Vivaldi stack, has an external master clock - is it your position it has no sonic benefit? |
Daily Gibberish from singinng
1. Last night I was working my way through Haitink / Bruckner Symphony 6 / 24-96 files from analogue tape on Qobuz. As I concluding the symphony I thought that that sounded familiar. I went to my LP racks and sure enough the spine had receded form view. I immediately put it on my stereo turntable for comparison and was greeted with the most lovely analogue sound possible. But, and it is a very big BUT, a few phrases into the performance it was clear the mastering engineers had severely constricted the dynamic range to fit the music comfortably into the groove to match the technology of 1970’s turntables. The result was a constriction of the palpable excitement of the performance. Lovely though it sounds I will probably never listen to it again. This is one reason among many that caused classical music lovers to abandon the LP medium as quickly as possible and permanently. I have many wonderful LPs form the 60’s and 70’s but a very large portion have a reason to prefer a digitized version. Ironically, in the early 1980’s LP pressing quality was achieving master tape quality and I bought as many LP remainders as I could find that fit into my collection as the new CD format pulled the rug from under analogue. Jazz and pop remain the preferred candidates for analog reissue. 2.Small Green Computer has issued a new OS version 2.9 for their Rendu players. Mine arrived on Mon, for free for sharing these posts with you. The instructions were simple, but ultimately too simple, for removing the elderly scan disc and replacing it with the new version. Now I love computers when they do what I want them to do and when I want them to do it. An hour and a half after installing the new OS I still could not get any music to play. I found I had to upload and install Squeezebox Lite into the software. I tried all sorts of rebooting etc. All to no avail. So I tried to but the old disc back in and it would not work. I shut it down, inserted the new OS, and said that tomorrow’s another day. The next day I turned the system on, pressed play and was greeted with music. It worked! What can I say? I had planned to go back and forth to listen critically for differences, but since I got the new version working I am not touching it. I started playing from my favorites and things were different. In these posts I have run the gamut of audiophile descriptors to death. I do not know how professional reviewers keep going. The newness was subtle but definite and I am going to use a new word for me: INTELLIGIBILITY. Both vocal lyrics and instrumental timbres have new vividness and MEANING. Also the sound-stage is much more removed from the speakers with a feeling of completeness. Good work SGC! 3.Paul McGowan has a new video on PARITY. I’ll let him share his experience to broaden this post. https://www.psaudio.com/blogs/ask-paul/cd-vs-streaming-quality CHEERS! |
@kennyc +2 and well said. |
@kennyc Thanks for your comments. I spent another evening with the upgrade and sat there completely slack-jawed at the fundamental beauty of the musical presentation. For me to listen to Sgt Peppers for the zillionth time and get new understanding of the lyrics is just a joy. It arrived at the most serendipitous time: when I had just finished tweaking my system to reveal everything. If anyone who gets the OS upgrade does not hear its real sonic benefits, you have some tweaking to do. |
@kennyc and others, none of you don’t have the faintest idea how streaming or TCP/IP work. No idea whatsoever. So arguing with you about facts isn’t very conducive.
but here is some empirical evidence, 0 people with actual knowledge of network can hear a difference, and it seems like 50% of people without actual knowledge can’t hear a difference, so what is the probability that there is an actual difference? 0. Regarding the DACs and external “master clocks”: While I am far from an expert on DACs, DACs and network equipment are fundamentally different, do not operate in the same space. Master clocks do not exists outside mixing studios where they are used to synchronize multiple different digital nodes. So calling it a master clock is wrong to begin with. Any pro audio guy will give you this detail, and if all these things actually worked, pro audio would have implemented them long time ago, but these “audiophile” clocks, switches, Ethernet cables do not exist in the pro audio world, because they don’t provide any value.
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@mahgister nice try, however, the people with the made up theories are the ones with the tinfoil hats. And there are a lot of you on this forum. |
You won't find many in the IT or networking industry (other than those who manufacture audiophile versions) saying that audiophile switches or network cables make any difference. In other words, established science and engineering says unconditionally that they don't make any difference. Is established science and engineering always right? Unequivocally no, it is not. Thus in general there is always a chance that established science and engineering is wrong. BUT, it is also incumbent on those who propose principles that are against established science and engineering to provide proof of their claims, rather than the opposite. In other words, scientists and engineers don't have the obligation to prove you wrong...they do not have to prove a negative...rather the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence, other than anecdotal "wow a veil lifted off" type of stuff. So, do your triple blind study at scale, or show us one, and minds will open.
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@fredrik222 It’s amazing how much you can learn when you just use your ears — they’re much smarter than you and your theories are. Jitter wasn’t a known issue when CDs first came out, but people could hear it. Then we learned what it was and how to measure it and it became a real thing. I find it very sad that you and your ilk refuse to just trust your ears because they are the finest measurement devices we have.
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@soix let me correct you, what you should have said “it is amazing how different the brain can interpret it’s surroundings”. Because that is the truth. No one hears with their ears, the brain interprets sound waves coming, based all sorts of biases, and that is where our hearing comes from. again, it is impossible for an Ethernet cable or switch to improve anything, including jitter. That is not how it works. However a poor switch or cable can add jitter and other issues.
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@jji666 actually, you can prove it in this case, just do a full spectrum analysis of the same passage in a song with and without “audiophile” Ethernet cables, or a switch, and if there is a difference you will see it there. and, this has been done, and no difference. |
@soix agreed, and even more sad that you don’t understand that you are Giuliani in this case. |
The ears are fine. Expectation bias in the brain is the problem - what our ears hear cannot be easily converted into usable scientific data. That's why a point about something like a spectrum analysis makes sense, albeit at least a real scientific study -- i.e. blind trial type of thing -- about the qualitative aspects of audio with different cables or switches would at least be more reliable. Just claiming you hear a difference? People see UFOs. People buy fancy wine and can't tell the difference in a double blind study. I'm not saying there's never a difference in audio. Science and engineering back up differences in speakers, for example. But science says that audiophile cables do nothing. It's up to those who feel the opposite to provide evidence that isn't just "I can hear it" because your ears are not feeding into a computer, they are feeding into your brain, which has a mind of its own... |
Your post and sarcasm cannot hide the fact that you dont know at all what a " perceived sound" is... To understand this we need at least a theory of hearing... You certyainly know that science had no accepted theory of hearing right now ? Only many competing theories... You think that a sound is an "illusory" subjective quality with no basis in reality...The sound experience is not only and merely about the brain self delusion as you suggest ... It is not also just about the wave medium ... It is a big more complex than that... I bet6 yoy did not read much about this... The sound experience is about hearing real objective information coming from vibrating sound sources... More than that , the sound experience must be learned...It is not a mere placebo effect... Anyway you dont know what a placebo is either i can bet...
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the reports of the OPs approach is reported across other forums. Early in my research, I looked at the OPs approach but I wasn’t too fond of the extra boxes and cables. Many components allow for the use of an upgraded power supply for performance improvements, there are ample examples. That’s the purpose of the LPS (linear power supply) as it often replaces the noise switch-mode-power supply. Plenty has been written about this as well. If you look into the top components with top parts, chances are their power supplies are also linear. You do realize that the digital info is transmitted on an analog signal that’s susceptible to picking up noise? Ethernet and usb fiber optic motes seem to confirm this by dramatically (big change) dropping the noise floor. Or are you saying that’s also impossible? The friction you’re receiving is because the OP is sharing his experiences and we benefit from additional information. But you interrupt this thread saying the claims are false without any proof other than your understanding on how Ethernet “information” is transmitted, while seemingly neglecting our interest to “sonically” improve the audio by reducing noise passed thru audio cables and reduce digital jitter. Frankly, I’m a bit irritated that I have to explain many of these processes to rebutt your “impossible” claim - you really should have looked at “both sides” before drawing conclusions and especially “before” coming onto threads saying they’re wrong which stifles the flow of information in which we learn and benefit.
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@kennyc there is no “both sides”. There are facts, and fiction. You don’t know anything about Ethernet, end of story, so you can’t even begin to argue anything, and that is why your comment about noise over Ethernet means nothing, it is fiction, pure fiction. And it is not conducive to continue down this path, like I said, no one in this thread has shown that they have the slightest understanding of streaming and the associated protocols. So that you think it is irritating just actually just funny. |
I’m a bit amazed at your immature ranting like a stubborn child to proud to admit the possibility they may be mistaken - digging in there heals the more emotionally hurt they are. Ignoring the contrary evidence to avoid other conclusions. Ignoring the possibility that high end audio is a higher requirement than Ethernet data delivery reliability. You’ve drawn the illogical conclusion that “if Ethernet data integrity is assured” then “there is no other possible way to get further ‘audio’ benefits”. |
