I bought some Owens Corning 703. Now what?

That sounds great! Please let us know how things change with the new construction! I created 4 units with mine -- two were single panel sized and two were double panel sized and that gave me flexibility to move them to different places around the room, including the ceiling.

I went with the 6pc carton from Buy Insulation Products.com. Bought a 2’ x 4’ piece of birch ply, cut it into four equal pieces 6" wide, and made a 4’ x 4’ x 6" frame. The six 2’ x 4’ x 2" OC703 panels perfectly fill the frame: two side-by-side, three deep. Wrapped the frame with grill cloth, set the frame on a pair of 3’ tall ASC tube traps against the wall behind my listening chair.

Well, I think you've found a good deal then. Go for it and make some panels!

Unfortunately, the only OC dealer in my area who was sells the 703 panels does so by the square ft., not by the carton. He quoted me $2.86/sq.ft., six of the 2’ x 4’ panels (48 sq.ft.) then coming in at $137.28!

That's about what I paid. I think the best deal I've found since then is to find a local insulation company that sells it and just go pick it up with my car. It comes in around $65 for 6 two-inch by 4 ft by 2 ft sheets.

There is an online seller named Buy Insulation Products.com. They sell the 6 pack of 2" OC 703 for $105.50 with free shipping. Cheapest I've found.

I had trouble finding the 703.  Not carried by big-box stores, and I called all the HVAC installers in the area to no avail.

Ebay was the answer.

When I was building panels for my room, I had contacted GIK and they suggested I go with the Knauf Insulation. This is what they use in their panels as well and is brown in color. 2 feet by 4 feet. They have a DIY section on their website and you can buy it from there. 

@rc22 yes, your best bet is to call local commercial/industrial insulation companies and ask for semi-rigid fiberglass.

Funny this is your most recent post.  Because 2 days ago on 2.27 I was in Home Depot looking for 703.  I will try Lowes next and then other local building suppliers.  Will let you know if I find it at a lower price than online.  I just thought of a guy in the insulation business that I can call.

UPDATE: I've had great success with some DIY OC 703 panels that I made into 2" and 4" panels. Thing is, they cost nearly $110 to buy (6 of them) and shipping was 40% of the cost! I was in Home Depot yesterday, and they don't carry these panels.

I'm wondering if anyone has had luck procuring these or similar acoustic-oriented panels locally and avoided the shipping surcharge?

@cymbop I love your fabric choice! Groovy, a la 1968! And a great system and room. I have just wrapped mine in fabric, too, and they are quite sturdy. I'm not going to bother with wood frames, yet. We'll see if they sag as bad as I'm sagging.

Hilde, I went the 703 route and tuned by ear as well.  For aesthetics, you can frame with wood; or in my case, I just wrapped them like Christmas presents in fabric and used a 3M spray adhesive to secure fabric to fiberglass.  I am definitely not a DIY-inclined person, and somehow they came out good enough to satisfy my wife for placement in the living room.  You can see details on my system page.  
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/4844#&gid=1&pid=8

Thanks, rc22. I continue to use REW and have benefited from help from numerous nice people and also from videos online. I think some of those videos can help push you further toward more measuring, and if I can tell you anything useful, please P.M. me. We could chat.

Hilde45 “Posts on this site have convinced me that I'm done thinking about gear. (And I just put a system together.). So now I'm looking for a correctly treated room, or at least the path which leads there”

I am at the same juncture, Hilde45.  While I have been interested in utilizing REW for a few years, the perceived learning curve has kept me from even attempting it.  Hopefully that changes now, thanks to your thread and some of the very helpful posts from many including Lemonhaze, Tomic601,  Shalommorgan.

Like many in the hobby, I have been working on my tweaking my room set-up for years.  Implementing several tips in Jim Smith’s book, Get Better Sound, improved my SQ.  Then I paid Jim a very reasonable consultation fee for room-specific guidance aimed at finding the all-important (according to Jim and others) ideal place for one’s chair. Called the anchor spot or chair, IIRC.  I sent photos and dimensions of my room.  Using the RTA app on my phone I took readings of white or pink noise (forget which it was right now) playing as I moved my chair further from the front wall.  Did 6 readings.  He identified the two best spots and my chair has been at one of them for close to 2 years now.

Why my interest in REW, then?  Because we took no readings of corners, center of front wall (between speakers) or anything else.  And, I also wonder how much better REW and a microphone may be compared with an RTA phone app.

My room sounds more than “quite good”.  It really does.  However, I have felt that way many times and then found ways to make it better.  There is sheetrock bump-out that houses an HVAC chase that has discouraged me from moving my speakers further into the room because the left speaker will eventually be so close to it the SQ will suffer—I presume.  The other “deterrent” is that my speakers are on DIY adjustable platforms that make moving the speakers and resetting them with OCD symmetry a bit “involved”.  However, last nite I DID move my speakers further into the room by almost 3 inches and thus also reduced the distance to my ears by the same.  I fine-tuned toe-in and assessed the closer triangle.  While I do believe in assessing over at least multiple sessions over time, Wow.  I should have done this sooner.  One key improvement seems to be dynamics, but there are others.  Doing the “ears cupped by hands” test, the impact of my hands is vastly decreased.  Does anyone know if that is an indication of improved dynamics, per se?

I like my equipment, believe it is well engineered and have even improved it by employing the services of a very gifted mod-er here on AG.  Like the OP and others who’ve posted, I wish to address my room’s SQ-robbing deficiencies a bit more methodically now because I suspect I’ve still not heard my rig at its best.

Brief update. I did some critical listening with one interesting variation: (a) the entire box of panels against the front wall with the front face of it OPEN or (b) with the cardboard flaps closed. Very, very noticeable difference in what it did to the bass. When open and absorbing (and not even ideally), it sucked in enough energy to render the bass much crisper, located, defined. No muddiness even when the string bass in the jazz I was listening to went to the lowest notes; I could hear fretting and very distinct notes. Closed up again, and the muddiness came right back to the low bass notes.

FWIW, a noticeable difference. I didn’t focus on much except the bass region, so I have no idea if it was over-absorbing or disrupting upper balance. But it helped the bass a lot.

@mitch2 
A/V Room Service EVPs are made with/of:
"The EVP core is a matrix of precisely compressed high-density molded glass fibers, which allows controlled air movement through the fibers." (from his web site specs)
They work well for isolating equipment.

There is so much great info on the net regarding acoustics and seeing that it is the acoustics of your room that is going to be the final say on what you will hear that I once again encourage you to delve deeper into this fascinating aspect of optimising the speakers into your chosen room.

It's of course possible to get a professional company to supply and fit the treatment but without an understanding of 'what and why' you will find yourself needing to hire them again at great expense to analyse and fit out the next room you decide to use for system. Also appreciate the fact that you, armed with the knowledge and REW, can design a huge bass trap to sort out a specific problem. Acoustics companies are reluctant to design and provide custom service. They have standard designs which in knock-down form can be couriered easily and a few of them tend to oversell.

This brings up another point which is if you have REW sussed out you can measure any treatment fitted by the pro's and tell them to stop when RT60 is where you want it. A friend of mine had to remove a bunch of panels that rendered his room too dead.

http://arqen.com/bass-traps-101/placement-guide/#quarter-wavelength-rule
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ59AQU1FUY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4agj6oZIaI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41liBn-QNW4&list=RD41liBn-QNW4&start_radio=1&t=375

You may find these links useful. The last one shows a super-chunk bass trap. It's a little sloppy but provides an idea.

@lemonhaze
Thank you for taking the time to articulate the important things, in useful form. As the diagram on my system page will show (and which my measurements confirm) the corners are not that problematic.

( see: https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/9064 )

Given that, would you suggest 2 stacks of 3 panels somewhere else? Where the bass frequencies are the loudest? Or somewhere else?

I'm getting help with REW and learning these additional plots. I've been looking a lot at RT60 since tomic601 said that. I'll look at the things you suggest.

Posts on this site have convinced me that I'm done thinking about gear. (And I just put a system together.) So now I'm looking for a correctly treated room, or at least the path which leads there. Thanks again.

I somehow deleted a long post. I'll try again but keep it short.

6 x OC 703 panels will help but not all that noticeable. Buy a bunch more as they will not go to waste.

For the biggest impact look at taming bass frequencies which creates acoustic havoc in any domestic room. Make 2 stacks of 3 panels placed on either side of your system. Set these up lying horizontally at 45 degrees straddling the floor/wall corner. If you get more panels do the same in other corners. The more you have the easier it will be to see the result on REW.

The best advice I can give you is to become comfortable with REW, especially regarding the CSD (waterfall) plots. Once you begin to absorb the lower frequencies which are, because of combining either constructively or destructively, creating peaks and nulls. It is difficult to appreciate the harm done by these peaks and nulls or partial nulls. Consider that a null has nothing to contribute to the sound, it's music that's missing. Gone.

Bass can be well smoothed by using a DBA but will still need cognisance taken of the decay time. Using acoustic smoothing in the modal region in addition to the multi-sub approach will optimise what can be done. This double attack on the bass gives stunning results.

I see @ tomic601 is the only one who wisely mentioned RT60. This mysterious quantity is simply the time it takes for the sound to decay by 60dB which for the average domestic room is about 400ms. The target then is to have the full spectrum decay within 0.4 secs. REW's CSD plots provide this info.

Expect a correct RT60 to provide bass info previously missing or partially missing depending on the depth of null and more control and bass detail.
It appears poor @ shalommorgan did not go this route and required 5 iterations to get things sorted. Using REW or HolmImpulse (as used by Geddes), get the table off the net for RT60 for your size room and have fun.

The result of a correctly treated room is difficult to conceptualise but it is a bigger move to believable, rewarding and immersive sound than an expensive component upgrade. True story.

Thanks Shalommorgan and Tomic601.

Yes, I will try a few well placed panels and not go too crazy. I placed a couple panels at the floor just beneath the ceiling and really heard a difference, so I know the effort to put at least one or two up on the ceiling will be worth it. Also, there’s a lot of bass energy at the front wall.

Raise the ceiling in my bungalow. Er, um, hmm.... I hope to move into a larger unfinished basement room next to this one, 12 foot ceilings -- a blank canvas.

Experiment to learn is good in concert with science. Did you post a RT60 ? 
Enjoy your journey:-)

how deep are the joists above ? This is a hint....

You have the gift of room volume/ space. No level of acoustic treatment can make up for lack of room volume. Experimenting is a means to an end. Enjoy the journey. Yes, set expectations accordingly, but don't settle for less than what you think is possible. 

Your system seems to appreciate more side room/ width to breath. I really think your room is pretty good as is. Again, I think a few diffusion and/ or absorption panels well placed is the right call, but no need to get to deep in the weeds with it. No need to cover larger amounts of your room. Don't forget the ceiling as you work through it. Again, be surgical in your use and placement. Address what can be addressed before you hit the threshold of diminishing returns.  Also, consider adding a bass array setup to help address low frequency modal issues, if needed. It really helped my room. Google (bass array) Earl Geddes - using multiple subwoofers, if you want. 

Best. 

@shalommorgan
That's an inspiring effort and a beautiful setup you have. Thank you so much for sharing that, along with your advice. I just spend an hour or so moving things around and so my side walls became my front and rear wall. Terrible -- lots more bass problems and harsh highs. I'm going back to listening across the room width - I have no side reflection issues that way.

I'll take your advice about not expecting too much with a few panels. I do realize that a large amount of a room needs coverage and that my ceilings pose an ineliminable problem. I'm experimenting to learn, but your room now shines out as an ideal!

I’ve spent the last 4 + years turning my dinning room into an enclosed soundproof highly accurate and articulate dedicated listening room. My room allows for an absolutely stunning listening experience! I have extensive experience with Acoustic Fields bass management technology. I hand-built all 40 of my activated carbon bass absorption panels based largely on Dennis Foley’s designs. I also built a front wall/ inner- wall diaphragmatic carbon absorption system in the room....down to the studs design. My room design and configuration is based on a blend of ideas from Acoustic Fields, Chris Huston and Dr. Earl Geddes. My room design uses diffusion + absorption. The reason I say this is because it took me hundreds of hours and probably thousands of dollars to learn what works well and what doesn’t, before I ended up with my current room layout. I hope to share with you and others some of what I’ve learned as you work to improve your listening experience. I understand that you’re unable to make significant changes to your listen environment, but hopefully I can add something useful to this discussion.


With little understanding and lots of determination, I started my journey over 4 years ago buying 20 panels from GIK as well as absorber products from other online retailers. I started by adding floor to ceiling 12’ thick corner (limp mass) bass traps. I used front wall & ceiling bass traps and absorption panels from GIK and even built several different types myself. I hung dozens of panels from my ceiling and walls. I could go on and on about all the limp mass absorption products I cycled through in my search for small room greatness. I’ve built and rebuilt my room five times over. Each time learning, listening, adding and removing as I go. I was fed up with all the effort and still my room lacked in everyway. My room is small 13x16x9. Pretty average small room. Bass was a major issue. Room modes, bass issues, mid frequency issues, echo, flat/ dull, lacked dynamics..... compressed lifeless sound. But I can tell you this, with the proper use of material and placement anyone (even in a small room) can have a world class music room. With regards to your question about best use of Owen’s 703 bats and where you might see changes....I hate to say it, but a handful of fiberglass bats alone will not provide any meaningful bass absorption. Don’t spend time or money on room corners. Limp mass absorption panels will provide some attenuation of room echo and reverberation. Simply place a few bats on sides walls, a few on the front wall and maybe one or two on the ceiling and see if you notice an improvement, that’s it. Listen for better instrumental placement in the sound image, is there a little more accuracy, if so, the 703 panels are working. Again, bass won’t change much if any. Try this, when standing in your room, clap your hands, do you hear a slap echo between two apposing flat surfaces, if yes, place a panel one each side to kill the echo. An airgap between the wall and panel provides little improvement. (remember this, small rooms usually need more absorption, big rooms usually need more diffusion. Both is best).


Some improvement is always nice. There isn’t anything that can be done to change your ceiling height, it is what it is. Enjoy your room, make a few easy changes if possible to improve your listening experience. If you really want to take your room to the next level, be read for big room modifications.

A link to my room/ system. Hopefully link woks.

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8747
(shalommorgan’s listen room)

cissado, Miller -- I heard the advice about corners. I did a bunch of SPL measurements. In my room, corners don't have much bass; it's the front wall behind the speakers that's really overloaded.

Thanks djones. I'll look that Schroeder stuff over.

edunbar Oh, I'm not reacting emotionally. I understand his advice and others have told me, too. I cannot move the room for a few years because we have a family and will do a renovation at some point but I'm stuck where I am. There are many elements of this room that are pluses and it already sounds quite good. So, while I understand the kernel of the advice is sound, it was offered without knowing any of the details of my situation. My sense is that someone at that company (I don't know if it was Dennis who replied) figures they have all the business they can handle! That's fine. GIK and I are talking, and I want to see about Real Traps, too.

When I moved I to my current home 8 years ago I asked Dennis Foley about my proposed basement room, which has a low ceiling. He didn’t recommend it at all, and I took his advice and found a different room. 
I understand if there absolutely is no other alternative, but reacting emotionally to free advice from an expert doesn’t seem wise. 

Concentrate on below Schroeder frequency where the room is in control above it's the speaker that controls.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/schroeder-frequency-show-and-tell-part-1#:~:text=In%20a%20typ....

Well, Foley says the corners aren't necessarily the spots to be in. He's done thousands of rooms and his data does not support that. He's mentioned it numerous times in his videos. Of course everyone can have their own opinion. 

I suggest watching a few of his videos. He does focus mostly on bass frequencies imo. Maybe because they're the hardest to fix.

I don't see, with all of the advice given, where anyone has stressed the need to examine the corners.

millercarbon:

Also you might want to check out the Decware site where he has a very interesting analysis that explains why corner treatment as I have done is so effective.
https://www.theanalogdept.com/c_miller.htm 
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367

Only the one comment and the two web page links. 
Probably everyone else missed it too.

Thanks, cissado. Bass first -- got it.

Here's a brutal response I got from Acoustic Fields when I described my room (and the 6.5 foot ceilings): "This is the worse ceiling height I have seen in 20 years. Please find another room."

Sigh. Well, at least I enjoy listening to music in that room, whatever he says.

+++ re acousticfields yourube videos. 

I've only been learning this stuff from the videos and from reading, so grain of salt.. 

It's easy(ier) to affect high frequencies than problematic bass, so I would start with the bass traps and getting that under control. By the time you're done with that, you may need less of the high frequency absorbption. If done the other way around, you may do too much of the high frequency absorbption.  That is just my guess. 

The reason for mounting the panels with a space behind them is to make them more efficient. This was mostly for the big bass traps, corner bass traps, that were made for maximum effectiveness because we can never really get enough efficiency at the very low bass notes. You may not even absirb enough with just the 703's. So the diy'er would make a 24 inch wide triangular trap from floor to ceiling and it would be a good idea to have a 1 inch gap to the wall to add even more to its efficiency rating. So it became the norm when giving advise. But if you don't have the ceiling height and you may not even need that particular frequency to be affected, then you may only need the 2 inch or even a 1 inch panel. That's why you are measuring.

Best of luck

Thanks rego and amtprod. I'm going to try those ideas next!

Hey @hilde45, good post ... the first report-post shows that you have identified two symptomatic areas in the mid to high frequency range.
As another experiment you could double-up panels (2 x thick etc. gives double the bandwidth, roughly) and extend absorption lower. 
The ceiling should be a deep panel (example 5 inch depth), with long narrow panels-spaced at different lengths apart to gain a baffle effect.
400 - 4000 wavelength range (3 feet - 3 inches) will likely need the most attention other than bass.
A Tube Trap(ASC) would go a long way to tame bass and help with mid to high frequency.

@hilde45  Oh I see.  Yeah from these measurements maybe there isn't much if any reverb/cancelling/smearing from the asymmetrical room layout (to some extent).  Try the test anyway, just to see and maybe it will help identify other sonic issues as well. 

@chorus Thanks for your suggestion. Ceiling seems crucial!

@amtprod It’s a good question, but what is not evident from the diagram is that the right speaker, nearest the bathroom wall, actually fires into the entrance way which forms part of the front wall. In other words, there is no first reflection point (as revealed by the mirror test) on that wall.

I went and measured differences in the room. In actuality, my right speaker is 12’6" from the right wall and my left speaker is 15’ 3" from the left wall. I’m not sure that the difference there (3’3") is enough to cause a big difference. Both are far enough way to not be able to smear the direct speaker sound reaching my ear from about 8 feet away.

I will try your test. Yesterday, I did put my panels along that bathroom wall just to see what changed, and there was no apparent difference. Again, because there is no first reflection point there, so that is probably the reason.

Sorry I did not read all the above suggestions so the may be a duplication. I too bought a dozen pack of the exact same material,
assembled a frame and wrapped with a soft fabric color keyed to the wall colors. The immediate improvement was dramatic.
Positions to try: Ceiling reflection spots between speaker & seating.
As you have no side reflections that eliminates the 1st ones otherwise needed. If there is a wall behind you add a couple there.
Same for the area between the speakers. Glass surfaces are bad and benefit from attention as well. How many you need will in total will depend on the amount of existing absorption material in the room. You have carpet so that is very good. 
Smart question. Good luck!

In looking at your room diagram, I was wondering if you notice any sort of channel dominance or time alignment/phase issues being made from the right wall: I think the bathroom is along that wall.  I ask because of how close and oddly comprised that wall, and area are verses the left side (from couch position).  I would think you would be hearing or experiencing some different characteristics from the right verses left channel.  I have a slightly similar issue in my listening space, only drastically more profound.
One test I did to measure and see how dramatic the difference was, I played a simple instrument tone from violin or any stringed instrument.  I disconnected one channel/speaker and documented sound qualities, characteristics, feeling, essence, issues. Then swapped and did same with other speaker only, and did same process.  It was amazing how different the sound was coming from each speaker because of the asymmetrical distance to walls.  Granted to be noted this would change again when both were playing (phase, cancellation, other time delays, smearing, etc)  but this gave me a very accurate and dramatic test to at least find ways to contend with my one odd wall due to distance from speaker to it, verses the other and it's vastly more open air. 

I would wonder if going dramatic with this test, and then use all the panels along that bathroom wall to just hear if and what difference there was to just know/have as reference.
I think your and other members thoughts on the ceiling are spot on!
Behind the speakers I want to remember would help with focus and again, smearing/blending. 

Best of luck.  Any room acoustic improvements produce vastly greater impact on your listening experiences than anything.

@bigwave Thanks so much. Bass is primarily what I have been measuring in my room. Moving speakers, listening position, the sub, doing the sub crawl, etc. But this chart looks very handy and may have some ideas I've missed.

@assetmgrsc I've definitely been interested in corners and will give them a hard look. Yeah, and no fiberglass Santa suit for this grinch.

@ 4krowme
You forgot to mention the importance of wearing safety goggles with your very informative instructions. The eyes are one of the first points of entry for that crap to enter! 

"....My question is: What are some useful experiments to do with the panels and where in the measurements might I see some changes? ..,"
    I don't see, with all of the advice given, where anyone has stressed the need to examine the corners.  That is the first place that I would start with.  Others have already given good advice for ceiling and walls, but suggest that you ignore the guy who wanted you to wrap yourself in fiber glass.  Good luck.

IMHO, the foundation for a great room begins with managing the bass as pointed out above,  the most difficult and the most expensive. Start here. 

https://www.acousticsinsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Acoustics-Insider-Bass-Hunter-Technique-Step-by-Step-Guide.pdf?utm_source=Acoustics+Insider+List&utm_campaign=a7b894f8a4-AUTOMATION__1&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_4eaebe19e0-a7b894f8a4-184671034

@jetjuice  Thank you for your replies. It's a privilege to have someone with your experience taking up my question. I'm trying to calculate the amount of reverb with REW.

And at this point, I'm playing with the material -- to see how it affects what I hear and what I measure.

FWIW, I don't expect to be able to become an expert by messing around with a few panels, but I expect to get some experiential insight into how the room can change. (Sort of like the way we try lamps in different parts of a room, with different bulbs, and then stand back and see how it looks, or sit down and try to read, etc.)

@vermonster -- Good suggestion. I'll try some doubled up layers, especially after I play some test tones to identify where the bass is really piling up in standing waves.

@mesch Thanks for the building material suggestions! I definitely need a project!

The use of your panels on front wall behind speakers and possibly between and at reflection points on ceiling and floor between speakers and listening position are great places to start.  

 You might consider framing your panels with 1" x 2" pine. Back with cardboard. Cover with burlap type material of choice. Look into making your own bass traps for corners. 

There are a number of books online about building your own recording studio where the math and principles are well explained.  To experiment, try a double layer (4 inches) 2 x 4 foot panel in corners and and on your narrowest dimension (often the ceiling) as bass traps to tame some standing waves.   

Hello all. I worked for Owens Corning for over 13 years and supported, from a technical side of the business, commercial boards etc... that 703 is a part of. First off, insulation will not kill you, breathing in insulation may be a slight irritant to some people but for most it is fine. Yes wrap the panels, insulation is ugly on the wall. 
Remember first what you are trying to accomplish in a room. There are several ways sound can affect acoustics in a room and there are several ways to control it. Diffusers, blockers, baffles, Insulation will help with reverberation in the room by absorbing it. There is an actual science to it and too much absorptive material (700 series fiberglas in this case) can be bad, too little can be bad. The best way to narrow it down is to calculate the amount of reverberation in a room and then calculate the amount of material you need to absorb the appropriate amount of reverberation. Thickness of the panel matters as well because thicker material will absorb lower frequencies better than thinner material. I can go on and on... but think about what you are trying to accomplish and choose the right material for the job.