PRAT is like the old definition of pornography, I know it when I see (hear) it. I agree with many of the comments that you can kill it in the audio chain, but for me, if the source doesn't have it you won't pick it up down the chain. I slipped a Linn Ikemi into my system for a couple of weeks many years ago and the PRAT factor jumped at you--it was THAT noticeable. Same with TTs. I'm glad you got the VPI working for you, I never could and that's a big reason why mine is gone (mine was only a Classic One which replaced a Scoutmaster). I now have a Pure Fidelity Harmony with a PF-309 arm and (in my system) the PRAT and just pure engagement of that table just jumps out at you.
I believe I experienced great PRAT for the first time
Pace, Rhythm and Timing - I've often heard about it, mainly in the context of certain turntables, but I don't think I've really experienced it in a highly satisfactory way until today when I mounted my new Soundsmith Hyperion, an upgrade from my Sussorro. Halfway through side two of Stevie Wonder's Original Musiquarium, it suddenly dawned on me that there was more going on than improvements in clarity, detail, neutrality, bass punch and other rather specific traits that I've until this point used to refer to what I'm hearing. For the first time in the 30 years I've had this album, I was struck by a sense of flow, ease, relaxation, and my feet were tapping! Yes, this must be it. I connected with the music at a higher level just now, something new to me. Get all the details correct, and the PRAT appears in front of you. So, this was nothing to do with the fact that my turntable runs at the correct speed with low W/F, as it was performing well at that before. I had assumed that's what PRAT meant. Perhaps it means that too, in a speed stability sense.
66 responses Add your response
Before I could put my finger an what PRAT was (by decades) I noticed some systems inspired me to tap my foot… some didn’t…. others drew me into the detail and made me listen for minute detail. Over a long period of time I realized foot tapping systems kept me enthralled for hours while listening to the venue and hearing details only kept my attention for a much shorted time. When I was working, if I got to sit down and listen to whole album I was lucky. So highlighted details were fascinating. But I never craved long sessions. When I finally started concentrating on musical accuracy (emphasis on musicality) the PRAT improved each move I made. Now my system is so enjoyable (details there, just not in the spotlights), I listen for several hours a day and still have to drag myself away. Way more enjoyable and involving… wished i’d figured this out decades earlier. But the journey was great fun… it has always been really a rewarding and learning experience. |
PRAT is easily killed…. It is one of the most difficult attributes to get and keep through the signal path. My experience points to it being most easily destroyed in the electronics. My current system is outstanding at PRAT as well as detail… Thinking back PRAT has always been most closely associated with great tube equipment I have heard over the last fifty years. As I assembled my most recent system (all Audio Research:I have had ARC phono stage and preamp for a couple decades) when I inserted an ARC amp it jumped big time, then I inserted a ARC DAC… jumped again.
|
"In any case shouldn't PRAT be more a function of the loudspeakers than any other component?" No, in my opinion, although other than the turntable itself, I could imagine that loudspeakers would come in second as a determinant of PRaT. (I've always hated that term, and I don't know why I am even getting into it now.) To repeat myself, the turntable is first and foremost the device that preserves rhythm and timing of the music, by its capacity or lack of capacity to maintain a constant speed despite factors that tend to cause speed errors, like stylus drag, belt creep, etc. I am not talking about absolutely perfect 33.333 rpm; small deviations are probably inaudible, but what is audible is the speed drifting up and down, which would be perceived as aberrant timing and loss of PRaT (god help us). I have more or less mentioned this previously but perhaps it didn't make a dent. |
ah yes, the good old days of Chris and the flat earth society. In conjunction with the Linn/Naim marketing steamroller they did a pretty good job of brainwashing the British audio mindset for well over a decade, and managed to have the dealers who blinked at their demands fall into liquidation in quick succession. I think a lot of us finally lost Jimmy when both he and Ed Paul Benson fell in with Peter Belt and went straight down the rabbithole - last I heard he was clamping strange devices to his water pipes.
A good summing up. Yes, the emergence of Peter Belt was a step too far for me too.
Good explanation too about shuffling resonances out of where they do most harm. Perhaps I should have explained in greater detail. After all I was there in person when Russell himself not only explained his approach but demonstrated it at the UK Hi-Fi Show a few months ago. That's also the goal of Harbeth if I remember correctly.
Although they both use a lot of science in their designs, they take a different approach to get there. Harbeth favour lossy cabinets to Russell K's listening by ear. Perhaps ultimately it's just a question of where you want to put the emphasis. |
@lewm I must say the trend is more toward using spectral decay plots and FFT analysis to influence cabinetry design and material choice such that what resonances do occur are pushed outside the band where the ear is most sensitive and are sufficiently low in magnitude that no ad-hoc post construction damping treatment is required. Which is what I think @cd318 was alluding to. |
ah yes, the good old days of Chris and the flat earth society. In conjunction with the Linn/Naim marketing steamroller they did a pretty good job of brainwashing the British audio mindset for well over a decade, and managed to have the dealers who blinked at their demands fall into liquidation in quick succession. I think a lot of us finally lost Jimmy when both he and Ed Paul Benson fell in with Peter Belt and went straight down the rabbithole - last I heard he was clamping strange devices to his water pipes. |
"Perhaps there was something in Jimmy's idea all along as can be seen by the approach of experienced designers such as Russell Kauffman (of Russell K loudspeakers) who don't use any wadding/damping material in their current designs. Instead they seek to work with resonances instead of against them." Can you see the logical fallacy in that statement? Damping materials also seek to work with resonance. There is no getting away from resonance, so any and everything you do to a cabinet can either broaden a resonant peak or attempt to reduce the peak resonance in magnitude or you name it. But resonance is there, regardless of how you treat it, so not treating it is just another choice off the "treatment" menu. |
I think it was Hi-Fi Answers, mid 80s I think. Somehow, I got sucked into the Linn/Naim cult after HFA ceased publication and I picked up Hi-Fi Review edited by Chris Frankland. Bad if still an interesting move. Maybe I'm getting old too but today's audio mags do all seem rather homogenised in comparison to those good ol' 'Wild West' days of the 1980s.
I can imagine manufacturers not being too happy after all their work (and additional expenses) in damping enclosures only to see Jimmy recommending the reverse. I must have been naive back then for following much of his advice regarding twin and earth/solid core cables, LEDs etc. Whether removing (some of) the damping from various speakers worked or not would depend upon your preferences. I would be lying if I said I never preferred the sound with at least some of the wadding removed.
Perhaps there was something in Jimmy's idea all along as can be seen by the approach of experienced designers such as Russell Kauffman (of Russell K loudspeakers) who don't use any wadding/damping material in their current designs. Instead they seek to work with resonances instead of against them. A brilliant idea, if it can be pulled off, and from what little I've heard, Russell may well have done exactly that. |
@cd318 you must be nearly as ancient as me, as can I can well remember Jimmy’s penchant for ripping out the lining of speaker enclosures when writing for Hi Fi Answers - got right up the nose of a couple of manufacturers too if I recall correctly.. |
I have found sprakers can be a great killer of PRAT.
Me too. I don’t think it’s too bad today but back in the 1990s and 2000s there seemed to be a lot of loudspeakers that would seem to suck out the life of music, unless perhaps they were turned up very loud. Some of them seemed to blur the timing by leaving the bass lagging behind and squash some of the dynamics so that the music always felt ’sat on’. This lead to some trying out various tweaks in order to correct things. I remember British reviewer Jimmy Hughes, the god of tweaks this side of the pond, advocating the extreme measure of removing some or all of the internal loudspeaker wadding in order to liven things up again. Of course that could lead to an increase in cabinet resonances but as they say, ’you pays your money and takes your choice’. |
I have found sprakers can be a great killer of PRAT. It is amply evident that some manufacturers simply do not understand the concept. Just as some people are tone deaf I am conviced that some are born rythmically challenged. As for amplifier design, I think the outcome is a direct reflection of the engineer’s musical priorities. Naim moved a lot of kit. I preferred Exposure which retained the PRAT but added a degree of ’body’ to the sound. |
Apparently most British PA amps weren't very good back in the 1960s and this is what led Julian to believe he could do better himself. I'm pretty sure that most of the nonsense came from the Linn side, although Naim did have their quirks. Eg they wouldn't put RCAs on their amps so we had to get our Linn's fitted with BNCs. Linn certainly had a sense of humour and I'm pretty sure they were in on the prat joke.
Many agree with you, no doubt. Rega for one. As I said, it would be nice to have both. In the UK this search for PRAT resulted in many systems sounding quick and snappy but almost totally devoid of tone, texture and colour.
In any case shouldn't PRAT be more a function of the loudspeakers than any other component? If an amplifier sounds as if it's got great PRAT then shouldn't we ask why? Could it be leaving something important out? |
Rega turntables are low mass to limit the storage (and subsequent delayed release) of energy. This design objective is well documented and requires very little research to confirm. As to Rega’s ability to do PRAT, I suggest you A/B an RP10/Apheta 3 against an LP12 combination at twice the price and make up your own mind. Don’t take your credit card. |
In my system that I described earlier, I think the Hyperion does everything extremely well, PRAT, tone, whatever. I think it’s a simple matter of superior tracking ability combined with ultra low moving mass and resonance- how do you beat a cactus thorn, lol, in combination with the Ortofon Replicant profile? Another thing I’ve noticed is that this cartridge scales like nothing I’ve heard - it sounds clean, steady and articulate right up through the highest crescendos in symphonic pieces, which is another testament to it tracking ability and high resolution. |
Pace, rhythm and timing are desirable commodities no doubt. However, in my experience, systems which do them well often fall down heavily in other areas. This realisation is the reason I moved away from a Linn/Naim system in the first place. Apparently Naim amps can do far more than PRAT these days but for me tone is king, PRAT are mere accessories. It's a shame that these 2 qualities often seem to be at almost opposite poles to each other. |
then there’s the role of the arm (and mat) in controlling resonances in the time domain, chassis composition and construction including the possible role of the Tiefenbrun ‘closed loop’ principle (also claiming to address time domain resonance issues if you are a believer), the ability of the cartridge to respond to transients.and control resonances etc etc Anything that affects the storage and release of energy in the turntable SYSTEM can and will affect PRAT. Why do you think Rega’s latest designs are purposefully so ultra lo-mass, and that they do PRAT so well? |
| Post removed |
In vinyl reproduction, timing of the music is entirely dependent upon the speed accuracy and constancy of the platter. The platter thereby recreates what the musicians laid down. To make an extreme point, if the platter doesn’t move there’s nothing. I think that’s what Ivor Tiefenbrun had in mind. But you can use the term PRAT any way you want. I certainly am not offended. |
As a recent upgrader from Sussurro ES to Hyperion ES I can agree with the comments above. This cartridge is a surprisingly large improvement in the areas important to my ears. More tonal information, timbre definition and overall musical information. Others have mentioned frequency balance and I agree. The later seems to be a great trait of many SoundSmith carts. That and the very low surface noise.
love @earthtones system too. The Pass XP-27 is fantastic! |
This post made me grin. At this advanced stage of my hearing decline, my enjoyment of music is mostly found in the time domain. I can't hear squat above 8k, but when the timing is right, all is good with the world. I too have the wonderful Hyperion, my endgame cartridge, on a highly modified stepping stone TT, a Rega P8. Someday I may move on to a more adjustable arm/table, but for now, the mods are holding their own, at least 'til my money tree can be harvested for the next round of goodies up the food chain. Best wishes enjoying your new sounds. |
I have a pretty respectable audio system sometimes tweaks are what really all that's needed, I have the new synergistic purple fuses are much better then any previously But a bit $$ pricy , these Duelund Mundorf Loudspeaker purifiers I assumed were just another Synergistic type that did little to nothing, I was more-then pleasantly surprised after roughly 4 days the focus and sound staging af image depth got much better , well worth the $350 IMO , I also have 2x4 room panels behind speakers and 1st reflection for$75 each wrapped in cloth and acoustic foam sonically help a live room. Herbies tube dampers has their tall tender feet That does a nice job of absorbing vibration without damping too much and under $75 .These all add up to better music 🎶 |
@earthtones what a lovely lovely system f;-) i can assure you digital prat possible with the basic ingredients you have ! Some like minded ingredients.. Maybe also consider joining the Vandy owners forum, on Vandy website. Jim |
The rest of my system was waiting- Pass XP-27, ARC Ref 6SE, Vandersteen M5-HPA, Vandersteen 5A Carbon, PS Audio P20 for sources, AQ 5000 for amps, AQ water IC, AQ William Tell Silver biwire, AQ Hurricane, and some other odds and ends. There’s a digital side as well but it’s not worth mentioning here as the PRAT is largely missing from that. |
I agree with those who say that PRAT belongs to the musician, However, it also belongs to the source component which is playing that PRAT which the musicians laid down on the recording. I've been an avid listener for 60 yrs and I only came to understand PRAT after I bought a TT which allowed me to hear that PRAT. The TT I had previously did NOT have that. It sounded sluggish in comparison. Yes, it becomes automatic foot tapping as if you can't help but tap your feet. However, mood also has a great deal to do with it also |
Congratulations on your new OCL Hyperion. It is a stellar sounding cartridge and without a doubt, the Hyperion is providing you with new musical satisfaction. Regardless of what you call it, the information that is being retrieved and how it is conveyed to you is all that matters. I too had many many such moments with my OCL Hyperion and still do. I would say that finesse of the Hyperion and the fact that it just plays back music without accentuated lows, mid, or highs. It is to me, the epitome of what a cartridge should sound like…nothing, just making beautiful music. I am in awe at how it is so balanced. I have my Hyperion installed on an SME V arm and I am running it wide open into an Aesthetix Io Partial Eclipse with dual power supplies. I tried the recommended loading and slowly kept inching up after a few months and settled into no loading at all, it sounds the best to me, open, airy, and organic, with a humanizing aspect to the voices. I just finished setting up my new Air Tight Opus 1 and the Hyperion can be proud to compete with such a higher priced cartridge, albeit, in different ways. Let’s leave it at that, don’t want to change the subject. Agree with others about the total system synergy…if your system is up to it, then you will have great listening sessions. From what you posted, you identified a system deficiency in so much that your cartridge was holding everything back. Now that you have added the Hyperion, the chain, your system, is complete with all of the attributes to make music sound really good. See, you were probably thinking new speakers, amps, preamps, cables, or whatever…and there it is, a brand new OCL Hyperion saves the day. Congratulations. |
