How to proceed?

@hilde45 

Thanks for your suggestions, Dave

As you know @decooney is working with me to solve this puzzle. 

We are going through process of elimination. I've moved speakers around some, so far, without impacting sibilance but I can't say I've done enough in this regard. 

When @decooney comes up, he can assess this, among other factors. 

BTW, my stand mounts have soft-domes and are not bright     ;o)

@stuartk This thread has really gotten going! Sibilance is such a multi-caused problem, that if I were you, I'd try a process of elimination approach that causes the least disruption. @alexatpos is on to something very important with (a) positioning. If you're in a constrained space, do what you can to ensure that you cannot fix the problem with positioning before (b) trying cables to change the problem. If that doesn't work, (c) an equalizer would be a very effective and flexible tool but if that's not possible, then (d) seeking a warmer power source (at least as an experiment) would be the ticket.

I had fairly bright standmounts and a solid state A/B amp (a fairly robust Atoll IN200 SE)  was too bright. I brought in a Pass XA-25 and while it didn't cure my problem -- because I had Beryllium tweeters -- it helped a lot. A Class A amp is an easy way experiment, not least because if it works, you could sell your Hegel and probably not lose much money. 

@audioman58 

Thanks for your suggestion.

I'm familiar with a the positive regard for the T+A.

I'm not sure it's the best choice for me.

@jtcf 

Thanks for your comments about the Jay"s. I hope you are right, as I wouldn't know which other transport to buy, at a similar price point!

I live in the boonies in an area of large parcels, each with its own transformer. A PS Audio regenerator had no discerniblle sonic impact  when demo'd 15 years ago but I may, nevertheless, try again with a different unit.  

My two cents ....it's unlikely the Jays is causing a problem. I bought one several months back, plus my cabling is all silver with the exception of the ic between dac (Pontus ll)and pre.I still try different copper cables in that spot from time to time. The presence region in an all digital system is a struggle to get just right.

    Noisy power can be an issue also depending on where you live. When I lived in a large city it definitely was. Now out in the boonies not so much.Hopefully the new cable will be a significant improvement for you.

If you can spend around $6500. The T+A 200 dac- preamp 

is the most complete dac I have heard and I have heard many in our audio get together and in the Hegel 390+590 this dac meeets or beats anything up to $15k

check out all the reviews ,and get a demo , it is night and day better then the 2 dacs you mentioned .

@deep_333

Thanks for suggesting the Technics. Like your cooking metaphor!

I haven’t ruled out the Jay’s -- you could be right, although with it feeding Hegel dac, the sibilance is certainly less exaggerated than with Aqua dac in system, and unlike with the Aqua, no fatigue.

No, I did not have the Lokius in EQ defeat mode.

Based on process of elimination above, it looks like Jay's spinner could be the culprit. You could get rid of it, your dac, etc and get the Technics SL-G700mk2 (sacd player+dac+streamer all in one), for example. Some good engineers at Technics already did all the cooking in-house so you don't have to be the sibilant fatigued chef.

Other considerations: it is quite strange that the Lokius did a whole lot of nothing to help... You sure you didn't have the eq defeat on while tweaking knobs?

👍

@audphile1 

That's something I never thought of. Will see if I can dig them up. 

@alexatpos 

Thanks. I've experimented with this quite a bit but perhaps not in sufficiently small increments. 

@stuartk Forgive me if this 'idea' seems too obvious, but you might try to slightly reposition your speakers, sometimes things can dramatically change within radius of few inches. I would say that I own quite transparent speakers (F.Serblin Accordo) and pretty resolving gear (Burmester 036 amp and Burmester 089 player) with silver cables everywhere, but while in process of finding best position for those speakers in my room, I 'menaged' to make them sound very, very different, all depending on toe in and width between them. That is not my first system and not my first 'rodeo' but differences in sound that went from 'warm and rich' to 'almost clinical' were eye (ear) opening, to say at least. Room acoustics are often taken for granted and speaker positioning is cheapest 'tweak', aldo perhaps the most time consuming. To cut long story short, my point is that if I had no patience to 'play' with positioning I could have swap gear (cables first) in vain. If I were in your shoes, I would mark the current position of speakers and would try to move them in very small steps, half inch 'here' or 'there'. It cant hurt and you may discover that changes might be very impactful. Best of luck

@stuartk I remember you mentioned using the same line of cables power cords as ICs in your other thread.
One very easy and free experiment you can conduct put back the stock power cord on the Hegel. Then do the same for the dac. See if and how it changes things. The stock cords normally don’t sound as refined as the upgraded cords do, but they don’t normally introduce harshness. Run the stock cords for a couple of days to let it all settle and sink in. That’s your baseline right there.

@stuartk okay, this is helpful. Since you do know DM locally, he is friends with the same 50yr tech friend [now retired] who was a mentor for me, learned a lot from him about amps, tubes, and more. That was years ago, learning core stuff.

With a nudge from him and a few other friends finally went down the path of quality power conditioning/stabilization to help eliminate any crossover noise with multiple components on the same circuit or junction box. And, another tube amp buddy who convinced [repeatedly] to go with higher quality [extra quiet] external power supplies for my streamer, DAC. He does the same on his CD transports. Things are dead quiet now, dark background, nice subtle details coming through, remaining harshness is gone.  I should have known better, had to experience it 1st hand. We can take this offline and pay a visit with DM locally. I need to call him anyhow fwiw.

@decooney

hey there, I was looking back at some old threads in 2019 where you, grannyring, and a few others were going back and forth about the S2, S3...

Thanks for your research on my behalf! I’d forgotten all about that thread. Looking back I see why I opted to stick with S2 -- I was unwilling to surrender the S2’s "warm and organic"quality for the sake of detail. My system is considerably more resolving now than it was back then, so I feel the same way.

One other thought - apologize if this was touched on prior, somewhere. I was looking up the design of the dac and its care to isolated boards and power supplies within the design itself. Not sure about the Hegel, but worth asking anyhow...

Given that Hegel’s claim to fame is ensuring the amp does not degrade the signal between input and output, I’d be surprised if they neglected isolation but I’m no engineer. I do recall from reviews that the H590’s dac board is much better isolated than that in the H390.

AC wise, what is your Hegel amp and Aqua DAC plugged into at this time? By chance was anything changed where everything was plugged into (plug locations, power cords) after adding the two new major components into your system? Have the particular AC wall sockets been checked by an electrician for added noise, by chance? Something else to check if you have not already done so, fwtw.

Amp and dac are plugged into some sort of "audiophile receptacle" (don’t recall brand). It’s not filtered, though. The transport is plugged into a standard receptacle. I had my electrician check connections to both last year and he said they were fine, FWTW. Nothing has been changed since Hegel and Jay’s were brought into system. I’ve received very conflicting advice regarding power treatment. I know that Hegel advises against such measures for their integrateds.

This is embarrassing but it just occurred to me that I may have neglected to mention the AC cords I’m using have the same wire as the IC’s -- copper + silver-plated copper! Sorry about that. Swapping them out for some Audio Art all-copper cords didn’t make a discernible difference but that doesn’t mean that some other all copper AC cord wouldn’t yield improvement. Whether it would make more sense to upgrade the cables or plug the existing cables into a conditioner, I have no idea. I can’t afford to do both, at this point.

@stuartk hey there, I was looking back at some old threads in 2019 where you, grannyring, and a few others were going back and forth about the S2, S3, possible upgrades, and comparing and the upgraded MHDT Labs Orchid as a reference point. It gives a reference point, I had a nicely upgraded MHDT Orchid myself (for years) and used all the same tubes grannyring did. I noted you were commenting the same types of things back then about not wanting extra resolution or detail. I found this thread and banter kind of interesting.

https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1794473

S2: There are other threads indicating the characteristics of the S2 version dac as being "warm" in fact. It does strike a thought that your upcoming cable swap test along with swapping other components in/out one-by-one might reveal something more. And finally other area comes to mind.

One other thought - apologize if this was touched on prior, somewhere. I was looking up the design of the dac and its care to isolated boards and power supplies within the design itself. Not sure about the Hegel, but worth asking anyhow...

AC Power:

AC wise, what is your Hegel amp and Aqua DAC plugged into at this time? By chance was anything changed where everything was plugged into (plug locations, power cords) after adding the two new major components into your system? Have the particular AC wall sockets been checked by an electrician for added noise, by chance? Something else to check if you have not already done so, fwtw.  

@audiotroy 

Thanks for your comments. I'm a physical media guy.

If I could afford the Aqua Diva, I would buy it in a heartbeat!  

We are an aqua dealer used to sell hegel as well

You can get

Better sound by switching transports a server will outperform a spinning disc reader our 432evo servers sound amazing and willllget your hegel to sound more musical

Dave and Troy

Audio intellect nj

US IMPORTERS 432EVO MUSIC SERVERS

AQUA DEALERS FORMER hegel dealers

@blackbag20 

Thanks for your comments. If the sibilance had occurred at a point when I hadn't just replaced two components, I might well call Aqua but it seems highly unlikely to me that what I'm contending with currently is due to a fault in the dac. 

Yes; it's encouraging to receive responses, especially from guys who not only have the expertise but the patience and generosity to stick with me through the entire problem-solving process. 

@stuartk ... well, you have to be happy with the amount of responses; that's encouraging, on some level.

I have a dac that's close to 14 years old.  It developed a timing error that resulted in overly-clinical, often sibilant presentation.  Apparently, it was over-reading ... spending too much time reading parts of the digital chain.   So high frequencies were over represented.  While it still sounded great I'd often get headaches from Miles Davis' muted trumpet and the like.  I called the manufacturer, which helped diagnose the problem ... I'd definitely get the Aqua folks involved in this caper.  Those guys are brilliant!  Good luck, my friend ... Happy New Year!!

Hey @stuartk well I choose to place my system in the main family room, where we spend most of our time. Next to the kitchen and sound can be heard in both rooms. I’m not into weird objects and appendages all over the place or anything hanging, personally. With quite a bit of home theater furniture and various book shelves and items on shelves, curtains in the back near sliders, we do the best we can. It does okay as-is. "Good Enough" I guess. Being a regular spot, It makes my listening space my favorite place, and where I/we wanna be. It’s forced me to optimize my system in the best ways I can. I listen more this way too, which is more of a priority. The separate Man Cave space is used for other hobby stuff, is the other answer. :)

If you ever get a chance to see photos, take a look at the living rooms of some of the well known amp designers, and where they listen. Look around the room, you might tend to see multiple amps and multiple speakers. For some reason I don’t mind this type of added audio fixtures that can be swapped in/out sitting around. We all have our vices I guess.  Enjoy yours!  :) 

@decooney

Thanks for your comments. Clearly, there is far more to the subject of cables than I’ve realized.

I’m surprised, to say the least, to learn of your preference for zero room treatments. How did you arrive at such an unorthodox perspective? Given the fact that I have so little flexibility in this regard, I’d be very curious to know if there are any rules of thumb I might be able to utilize in my space.

@stuartk following along with @audphile1 ’s point, something to be aware of about these different versions of cables, FWIW. Some familiar principals may apply.

Designers make changes to cables, interconnects. over time, and that can include metallurgy sources and dialectics used, connector types, solder, solder-on or crimping connecting methods used - and changes to the overall cable design itself, yielding varying results. Sometimes not always "better" results depending on who’s listening, and particular characteristics one might prefer either way. Some argue cables should not have a sound or think this is making use of "passive tone controls". Whatever the case, everything in (or out) of the signal path impacts the results, imo. Same goes for the internal wiring [and boards] inside of every component in the chain.

In my own research and ownership of different versions of interconnects, and buyers of some of the cables I resold to past 30+ years, there are a few older version "favorites" we hang on to and keep (hoard perhaps), liking them better. i.e. I’ve resold multiple pairs of much older TOTL Cardas Golden Cross to particular Pass Labs preamp/amp owners who may run brighter or more forward sounding speakers [and rooms]. i.e. hard floors or glass windows around, no curtains, etc.

I currently run an older/newer hybrid Cardas cable design myself, for similar reasons, and zero room treatments - a preference. In addition to component matching, I now think of it as we are also finding the right balance for each of our own systems, rooms, floors, walls, speakers, and our own individual ears.

@audphile1 

Don’t worry about the iterations of the Absolute Copper. I had an old original version and the latest. Sounded identical to me. The jackets were different

OK.

Don’t worry about the iterations of the Absolute Copper. I had an old original version and the latest. Sounded identical to me. The jackets were different. 

@audphile1 

I'm really looking forward to the time when I music-listening is no longer compromised by unnatural, unwelcome artifacts!

@mclinnguy 

I have La Voce S2, the first and warmest sounding version of this dac. 

I don't know whether it's particularly finicky re: power cords nor do I know which iteration of the Absolute Coppers I've bought.  The seller rated them "9- excellent" FWTW.  I actually wasn't aware that Mr. Lee continued to tweak them over time. 

@frl 

Thanks for your input. I'm aware that the Gustard has a strong following but to be honest the reviews I've read haven't triggered a desire to experience one for myself. Naturally, YMWV, according to synergy and personal taste. 

Gustard r26 from Amazon store could be worth an experiment. The i2s input is really nice, but you need to confirm the pinout compatibility from your transport

I love my r26 so much (no sibilants,. but good clarity), I bought a second for my office system.

@stuartk congrats! I believe we’re on the right track to solving your problem. The AZ Absolute Copper are excellent interconnects.

I approve of this statement 😁

Don’t think this question came up: Is the Aqua sensitive to power cables? which one is on it? I know audphile1 mentioned a cable on the amp, but I know in my brief time with my iec ported DAC it can be sensitive to the power cord, and I can see it being a little too energetic with a poor match. 

Also something to consider regarding AZ Absolute’s - My understanding is Mr. Lee has tweaked these from time to time, but doesn’t remark them as "mk II, mk III" or rename them in any way- he just implements the new change (for the better one can assume) as he sees fit, so one doesn’t feel like their cables are obsolete. The changes should be minor of course, but I am thinking a latest version set may not be as dark as the one’s you had? Following thread with interest. 😉

@stuartk congrats! I believe we’re on the right track to solving your problem. The AZ Absolute Copper are excellent interconnects.

@decooney , @audphile1

FYI, it was the XLRs I used for dac loop experiment (since returned) that had the rhodium plugs.

Current RCA ICs are these:

https://audioartcable.com/products/aac-se-ic-s-rca

and these:

https://audioartcable.com/products/aac-se-ic-g-rca

Same wire, different WBT terminations.

@decooney

Thanks for your reflections re: wire and the encouragement. To answer your question, I went with A. Zen Absolute Copper XLRs. 

I think the ICs @stuartk is currently using are silver plated copper and are terminated with Furutech Rhodium XLRs. That’s probably the second least forgiving combo after pure silver.

@stuartk worth a try for sure, and did you go with the Ultra or standard pure long grain [all] copper version AZ interconnects -or- the other version with Silver in it? Also did you go with XLR or RCA type ICs?  I ask after comparing voltage spec differences with your dac and transport or each type of connection, fwiw.  

Reason I ask is, I'll share I can go over to my cabinet and pull out two pairs of silver-over-copper interconnects and put them between my dac and preamp, and between preamp and amps, and will immediately create a similar added sibilance situation you referred to earlier. Particularly so on certain CDs or Lossless streamed tracks. Its all about finding a nice balance with your system, room, setup.

btw, after years of the silver-over-copper path through my system, this past two years I went back to all Cardas pure copper [digi coax, interconnects and speaker cables] in my system.  And, with the right non-oversampling DAC, no more sibilance or etch, all gone. It sure can help, trying and landing on interconnects that work for you, in your system. Best of Luck, you'll get there if you keep at it!  

@decooney 

Unfortunately, I sold the Sim to fund a cable purchase before I ever got the idea to try it in tandem with the Hegel's internal DAC so I'll never know what result that experiment might've yielded. I did try the Sim with the Aqua and the Hegel and the system sounded really dull. 

For the present, I've decided to try the A. Zen IC's @audphile1 recommended, first, before considering a component change. 

@stuartk on a different track for comparison troubleshooting, and if you got the chance, what happened when you plugged the Simaudio 260DT transport into the Hegel amp, using its internal DAC?   Same/Better/Worse...?

@audphile1 

 But I would start with the interconnects first.  That would be your biggest improvement. One change at a time.

👍

One more thing…if you decide to try AQ power cord, see if TMR has a used or open box. Comes with a return policy. Risk free way to try and see if you like it. 

@stuartk less costly would be AQ Tornado. But I would start with the interconnects first.  That would be your biggest improvement. One change at a time. 

@audphile1 

Can you think of a less costly alternative to the Hurricane?

@decooney 

 perhaps there is some form of impedance or voltage synergy mismatch going on between your Aqua DAC and the Jays transport that exaggerates the issue somehow [when paired together].

Yes, perhaps. Rather above my pay-grade, although I have experienced certain anomalies in the past that might be explained by this theory. My Empirical Audio re-clocker did not play nice with my Simaudio 260DT transport and more recently, a similar issue arose when I attempted to mate a Snake River Audio Boomslang coax cable with the Jay's. 

@designsfx 

No. The display clearly indicates when oversampling is engaged. Out of curiosity I tried it when I was listening through headphones, tonight. Thin and harsh! Listening through phones with the Hegel dac is much clearer than with Aqua, which sounds very dark by comparison. My headphone setup is very modest- old Grado SR225 through Schiit Jotenheim but the difference is quite apparent

@stuartk 

perplexing- yet interesting as to why this would suddenly become so apparent to you. I do have a question though. When you set up your new transport did you set it up to run in “over sampling” mode?

@stuartk "When I run my Jay’s transport direct into the Hegel’s DAC, fatigue goes away and while there is still some sibilance, it is not nearly so exaggerated."

If this is the case, as you may be wondering, perhaps there is some form of impedance or voltage synergy mismatch going on between your Aqua DAC and the Jays transport that exaggerates the issue somehow [when paired together].

You might be on the right path borrowing/trying different dacs and transport combos paired with your Hegel 390 amp. You already proved the Jays transport does ok with your Hegel amp’s AKM internal dac, directly. A few more steps to narrow it down perhaps.

I’ll add….to further tame this after the interconnects, I would put the AQ Hurricane high power cord on the hegel. Smooth out that bandwidth and add texture and body to the mids.
Don’t sell the DAC it will be a mistake

@stuartk 

Crystal clear. Qobuz stream…but… I can hear the potential for it. It is partially a recording but your components just let it fly. I can 100% guarantee you that if I had those Analysis Plus Silver Apex XLR it would cut thru my eardrums. 

This is something that interconnects like the AZ would most likely tame to a level where it would be listenable. I know exactly what you’re hearing now. This was good!

@audphile1 

I don't stream but Patty Griffin's "Useless Desires" is a particularly good example, if you don't mind looking it up. 

The thing is, I'm hearing it (with Aqua) on many tracks that never used to bother me.  This is why it's  a big deal. When I can't enjoy music I've loved for decades, it's a problem. Again, I never had this issue before I got the Hegel and the Jay's.

I had my hearing checked this year and was told there's nothing physiological that would cause this.

@stuartk hit me with the few tracks where you hear this sibilance. If available on qobuz and tidal, I’ll check what they sound like here. Can do it tomorrow I’ll be foggy today with the New Year celebration LOL

You never did answer the question on cost for a new DAC (or I missed it). I have found Denafrips DACs (specifically the Pontus II, Terminator II, and Terminator Plus), to be extremely musical and almost tube like; yet perfectly detailed. Denafrips DACs are also a perfect pairing with the Jay's transports, connect directly with a high quality I2S (HDMI) cable....and the I2S pin outs match.

They unfortunately do not have a demo policy. There is a used Terminator Plus 12th for $4,800 at US Audio Mart....with free shipping. That is a steal that I'd buy for myself if I had the funds ready.

@audphile1

Ironically, I live in the town where Pass was located for many years yet  know no one who has a Pass integrated. ;o)

I’d much rather replace the dac than the amp. My inclination is to sell the Aqua, try a Border Patrol and as you’ve suggested, try other cables.

@stuartk do you have anyone locally who’s running either a Pass Labs or a Luxman integrated? May be you can bring that over and try it?

I still think the cable swap will tame that sibilance but ultimately it will either have to be the amp or the dac or both. 

@decooney

Thanks, Duane. Yes -- I realize the only way I’ll know is to try it myself. To be honest, at this point, I’m feeling a bit overwhelmed by suggestions... hard to know what to try first.

I’m not after uber-detail. I bought the Hegel primarily for its bass grip and then discovered it significantly (in tandem with Jay’s) upped my systems resolution. At first, it seemed a revelation but over time, it’s become fatiguing. Familiar story, I know. My point is that I would gladly trade some resolution for musicality.

Hey @stuartk while I don’t directly know @grannyring myself, I believe he did some mod upgrades for another member friend here on another r2r dac model both of us owned prior. There are some older threads where he’s chimed in on the S2 vs. S3 version. This may depend on how much you might want to spend on the older version design dac vs. applying those funds to something different to try - would. be your call to decide.

You’ve mentioned the Border Patrol dac a few times, now, and prior. I can share I had a few DSD and other known R2R dacs (upgraded) before I decided to try the newer version Border Patrol SE-I DAC.  I was looking for something specific, with the tube design OUT of the direct signal path, since the rest of my system is all-tube today. The challenge is this dac gets better after the return policy period expires. In my case, there was no sending it back and I honestly don’t think about dacs any more since I acquired. the latest BP SE-I DAC. It’s right for my system. Works really well with my all tube system and with my other class A solid state amp too.  You'll find various comments on the dac, and there are different versions, caps, and transformers used depending on how current the dac is, gotta check this.

A friend wanted to try the new SE-I dac version too, and to compare with his own Audile S5 DAC he likes a lot with his all triode tube system he uses. He had Gary do the combo USB / Digital coax version too with the switch. Side by side, he shared the BP is musical, not lacking detail, yet the Audile [in HIS system] has a tad more detail up top in his triode system, already a tad rolled off I guess. Both of us have been messing with and returning back to TDA1541 and TDA1543 chip based dacs vs R2R resistor ladder dacs. Our preference for our own reasons. I think it’s all system-dependent, and each dac mentioned [above] in this thread can perform differently in each of our systems. That’s why trying it in your system is the only way to know what works better for you. I don’t miss any of my former dsd uber-detail or former R2R dacs having given the SE-I a try. Back to music now. Your preference could vary greatly, fwiw. Depends one what gels best in your system, room, setup, etc.

@decooney

Perhaps @grannyring has some experience with such mods?

@designsfx

Unfortunately, changing speaker location is not an option. When we built the house, I was just beginning my audio journey. Aside from providing a space for components, I gave audio very little thought.

The dac in the Hegel does not sound rolled off to my ears. If there is any attenuation, it’s in the mids -- there’s an overall lean quality that I’d prefer was not present.

But the main difference I experience, having gone from having the Aqua in the system to listening to the Hegel’s dac several times, is the sense of ease and relief, as though I’ve unconsciously been holding my breath with the Aqua and can suddenly breathe freely when the Hegel’s dac is engaged. It’s not subtle. However, it does seem counterintuitive. I’d expect an r2r dac to be more relaxing.

I have experimented to some degree with covering the glass-topped coffee table, the glass-doored Craftsman bookcase and the tile hearth with fabric and foam dog beds. I’ve heard no difference. Nor does closing the drapes impact the SQ, as far as I can tell. FWIW, according to two experienced audiophile biddies, I have pretty good ears.

it's not clear to me why you would assume the Border Patrol would constitute a backwards step, but then, I've yet to hear it. My only impressions are derived from reviews. 

@zlone

You are correct -- no sibilance with Wells and Simaudio. As an experiment, I tried swapping in an old Jolida CDP as a transport but the sibilance was even worse. I also inserted the Aqua into the Hegel’s loop function, in which it takes over clocking functions and the sibilance was worse than using the Aqua without dac loop.