How to proceed?

Dinafrips Dacs have an i2s that the Jays CDT will connect directly into. R2R Dacs.

You haven't mentioned what the rest of your system comprises.

So, it is difficult to know what is causing this issue.

B

@gdnrbob

I mentioned Jay’s transport and Hegel integrated. I don’t think speakers are contributing to the problem but they are Silverline SR17.5 monitors. I've tried various scenarios, including slaving the Aqua to the Hegel's clock, which made matters worse. The one consistent result was that sibilance was worse with the Aqua in the signal chain.

@fthompson251

Yes-- I should’ve mentioned that’s the only thing that’s occured to me, so far, to try.

I don’t think speakers are contributing to the problem

Speaker design can affect playback in many ways. Some due to crossover design.

Drivers, too.

B

@gdnrbob 

No doubt, but I've had these speakers for a long time, with other components and never had a sibilance problem.

If you cannot rise the bridge, you can lower river

If upgrades do no good, then downgrade and find older and cheaper one.

Price range for the DAC?

@czarivey 

Agreed -- I could always go back to the signal chain I had before sibilance and fatigue emerged. 

@mitch2 

To clarify, I'm not looking for particular dac recommendations so much as design characteristics/features associated with noise suppression to keep in mind. 

@stuartk You have a really nice system. That Aqua DAC seems really high quality and is R2R. I see good arguments in other threads that the DAC might be the problem. I find it hard to suspect the DAC, as it's well made and is R2R. Of course, if it's the DAC, that's a simple one for one switch.

If do wonder about the Hegel and (maybe) the room acoustics. Is there anyway you can borrow another amp to try out to see if that changes anything? If you tried an amp that was definitely on the warm side, you could really know about the Hegel. Looking at your room, I see there's not much about acoustics you can do that's easy. 

There is a nice discussion here -- some really good posts -- which indicate that room acoustics likely won’t solve it, though there is some debate about that. Some more discussion here, mentioning EQ and toe-in, among other ideas.

I am not an expert here at all...

Once said i experienced sibilance  when i had bad synergy between gear pieces speakers and dac or amplifier  or bad dac( which is not the case here i think) and room acoustic can only solve it in part ....Room acoustic alone  dont solve synergy problem ... A bit of EQ can help a lot ...

@hilde45

I don’t know it’s the DAC for certain. What I do know is that when the Aqua DAC is in the signal chain, there’s fatigue and exaggerated sibilance. When I run my Jay’s transport direct into the Hegel’s DAC, fatigue goes away and while there is still some sibilance, it is not nearly so exaggerated. BUT, the sound is quite lean unless cranked. I may try a Border Patrol, which is affordable and could be returned if it didn't work out.

On the whole, this system is way more resolving than its predecessor, so it’s possible the sibilance is coming from somewhere else and was simply not evident up to this point. It could be the room. If this is the case, probably the only course is to revert to a less-resolving system.

Others have suggested the Hegel may be the culprit. I hate to give it up because I love how it brings my speakers to life. At 67, I don’t want to deal with an even heavier Coda or Pass. I had a tubey-sounding Wells Majestic that was nice but lacked control in the bass, which is why I began searching for an alternative and ended up with the Hegel. As I haven’t been active in the local audiophile community, those might be able to loan me gear "don’t know me from Adam". Paying the price for my introversion!

Thanks for your interest.

@mahgister

A Schiit Lokius didn’t help but perhaps a unit with more bands????

I dont understand why the Lokius will not work in improving it ... For me then it is a problem about the speakers/room relation ...Of a bad synergy between a good dac and the rest of the gear interaction ...

I dont think that buying more costlier EQ will work better than this basic good one for sibilance...

In general looking for more resolution is not always the best way, sibilance may invite itself by exagerated high frequencies band coming from bad synergy or from a bad choice in some design ...I myself always asked for more musicality and more clear spatial localization acoustic qualities first, never for more resolving qualities first, because i hate fatiguing sounds ...My two systems dont lack details at all but they are never in my face ...They are there waiting for my attention ...

Borrow another dac...

@mahgister

A Schiit Lokius didn’t help but perhaps a unit with more bands????

@mahgister

I wasn’t actually looking for more resolution. I’m much more a music lover who prizes emotional engagement. I was looking to correct the poorly-controlled bass I was getting in my previous system, which I found distracting and increasingly dissatisfying. Hegel amps are known for their high damping factor and the H390 has not only brought much better bass control but the speakers have come to come to life in a way that made me question whether I’d ever heard what they could do, before bringing in the Hegel.

It’s possible the next acquisition might’ve been a "bridge too far" -- replacing the simaudio transport with the Jay’s. However, when I tried swapping it out for my old Jolida CDP as a transport the sibilance was actually worse. So, I dunno what to think... ;o/

@mahgister

I wasn’t actually looking for more resolution. I’m much more a music lover who prizes emotional engagement.

I already know that already...😊

I only say that the dac may not be the problem in itself but the synergy on some frequencies response never mind if it is very good on some other aspects  between it and the rest of gear ...Anyway it was my case in the past...

@stuartk 

OK, just greenlighting by an amateur (me).

I was going to recommend fine tuning with a Lokius, which I own, but I see no go.

It is puzzling in that you have dome tweeters.

Could your tweeters have ferrofluid?  If so has it possibly dried up causing what you are hearing?

If me, I would first purchase a new coax cable to rule that out before big changes.   Even a cheapie something off monoprice or amazon just to rule out a cable problem.   Actually, you probably could just use a standard RCA interconnect as a cable test. 

That's all I got.

@mahgister

I only say that the dac may not be the problem in itself but the synergy on some frequencies response never mind if it is very good on some other aspects between it and the rest of gear

If this is true, then would logic suggest swapping out only one component at the time (DAC, Amp or Transport) might not be sufficient -- that I might have to try multiple combinations of components? I ask this because you are better at logic ! ;o)

@jetter 

RE: ferro-fluid, I’ll e-mail Silverline.

Really-- a standard RCA IC ? OK...

@stuartk 

Really-- a standard RCA IC ? OK...

I thought I mentioned, not for long term listening, just to make sure your current coax cable (assumption you are using coax) hasn't been damaged in some unforeseen way i.e. doggy gave it a good bite.

@jetter

Coax isn’t damaged and is not within reach of dog. ;o)

Sent message to Silverline. 

Here we must ask for experienced people not for logic 😊...And i am not an audio engineer for sure... Myself i will try an other dac to begin with, any other one to see if the problem stay with me ,  ...Synergy is always a three partners affair mainly, dac- amp- speakers, where one is the main culprit ...

But more experienced people here will advise you perhaps better ...

@mahgister

I only say that the dac may not be the problem in itself but the synergy on some frequencies response never mind if it is very good on some other aspects between it and the rest of gear

If this is true, then would logic suggest swapping out only one component at the time (DAC, Amp or Transport) might not be sufficient -- that I might have to try multiple combinations of components? I ask this because you are better at logic ! ;o)

@mahgister 

Alright. I will start with a different DAC and see what occurs...

Borrow or buy a cheap low cost one to do the experiment and of different type than your actual one ...You will know if it is the dac synergy... Bad Synergy can exist also between high cost well designed components ...

@mahgister

Alright. I will start with a different DAC and see what occurs..

If all of your components and cables were chosen for their reputation of being highly detailed the presentation can lean too far in that direction. The leading edges of instruments and vocals are a little over emphasized and sibilance happens. A warmer cable in the mix might eliminate that and restore the balance. WireWorld and Cardas come to mind if you decide to try.The silver coated cable you're using might too much used throughout.

@jtcf

Resolution has never been a top priority. I don’t mean to be contentious but did you not read through the thread?

I wasn’t actually looking for more resolution. I’m much more a music lover who prizes emotional engagement. I was looking to correct the poorly-controlled bass I was getting in my previous system, which I found distracting and increasingly dissatisfying. Hegel amps are known for their high damping factor and the H390 has not only brought much better bass control but the speakers have come to come to life in a way that made me question whether I’d ever heard what they could do, before bringing in the Hegel

My IC and power cables are a mix of copper and silver-plated copper, chosen after finding all copper too dark and all silver too bright. My digital cable was described as having "a very liquid warmth that’s more gold than silver" in an Audio Bacon shoot-out among eleven contenders.

I’m not opposed to trying a different cable but I’d be surprised if swapping out a cable would have the same impact that results from removing the Aqua DAC from the system. The same coax BNC is used in both scenarios. When it connects transport to integrated’s internal DAC, fatigue disappears and sibilance is noticeably less exaggerated.

Hi @stuartk 

As you may recall, we have the same integrated amp. Having said that, when my very expensive Sony professional CDT died a few years ago, I ended up replacing it with a  Audiolab 6000CDT. An Audioquest Carbon digital to a Denafrips Pontus ll and XLR to the H390. And it sounds beautiful. I’m not familiar with your DAC, but were you running it with oversampling? Also, is your room treated with sound absorption? 

@stuartk 

Apologies if this was mentioned already, but I would consider trying different interconnects between the Aqua and the H390.  In your A/B tests, that is an additional change you are hearing (with and without the IC's).

Like your Aqua, I too have a R2R dac that uses vintage ladder chips known for natural sound with delicate and not bright highs.  I had sibilance issues of different degrees with a number of interconnects that were well regarded (Audience, Cerious, Audio Envy, Black Cat, others).

Eventually I found the right synergy with Zavfino Fusions IC's (silver and OCC copper).

Adding power conditioning to my system, (puritan psm) and different power cables (triode wire labs digital american) was another improvement in the high frequencies.

As to your original question on what dac designs to consider if you go that direction:  I'd stick with R2R, and look for designs that have intentional focus on a quality output stage and power implementation.

@curiousjim

Take a look at my virtual system page and you will see it is not at all optimal for audio. There is a wall of glass on one side, a tiled hearth, glass topped coffee table, etc. WAF disallows any panels. Nevertheless, my previous system (same speakers + dac, with Wells Audio Majestic integrated and Simaudio transport) was not at all fatiguing and there was not a trace of sibilance. The bass was poorly defined/controlled, which eventually drove me nuts and was the primary motivation for acquiring an integrated known for bass control. The Hegel is, needless to say, far more resolving then the tubey-souding Wells and this aspect, coupled with the Jay’s, which similarly delivers more detail than the Simaudio, may be too much of a good thing. DAC is NOS.

@veroguy

Thanks for sharing strategies you’ve found to be successful. You are astute in recognizing the ICs are also absent from the scenario with the least sibilance and no fatigue. I’ve heard good things about Zavfino. I don’t recall whether they have a return policy. Ditto Triode Labs. I know Jaguar does.

One dac that interests me is Border Patrol, which is very much designed with particular attention to power implementation.

I don't believe you mentioned your choice of digital cable.

@stuartk ...my previous system (same speakers + dac, with Wells Audio Majestic integrated and Simaudio transport) was not at all fatiguing and there was not a trace of sibilance.

...One dac that interests me is Border Patrol, which is very much designed with particular attention to power implementation.

This is a key indicator to me. Since the new integrated and new transport was introduced, the issues you describe started to occur. Also, re-check your path of any new "silver" based cables (power, interconnect) you introduced around the same time. If you have stock power cables lying around, try all together at once.

btw, I own the new Border Patrol SE-I dac, while I agree its smooth and non fatiguing, if I may suggest, I don’t think the dac change alone is going to resolve all of your noted issues. I kind of suspect its a combination of things going on now. Imo, as a test, I’d borrow/swap the amp and transport and [all] cables back out with stock ones all at once. Then go in reverse putting new pieces back in play one-by-one to see if it surfaces again. Worth trying to help understand if you can narrow down a specific culprit (or combination of things) from there. Best of Luck.

@decooney

Thanks for your suggestions. They make sense. Unfortunately, I do not have any unused gear lying around and don’t know anyone who would loan me the gear.

One exception-- I tried my old tubed Joida CDP as a transport and the sibilance was worse.

@stuartk my understanding is you have tried different cables between dac and amp and that didn’t solve the issue. Those were DH Labs cables. 
In my experience DH Labs cables are brutally honest and lean slightly on a brighter side of neutral. 
I will give you an example from my most recent cable swap/upgrade experience…

I was using Acoustic Zen Absolute Copper XLR between the Bricasti M3 DAC and XP22 pre, as well as between the XP22 and X260.8 monos. 
The AZ Absolute Copper were a bit too warn for my system with the latest upgrades. So I called The Cable Co and tried the following: Audience AU24SX, Analysis Plus Silver Apex, Kimber KS1126. I had on hand AZ Silver Ref II and the Nordost Tyr 1 and Tyr 2 that my friend loaned me. 
There was a significant increase in sibilance with the AP Silver Apex. A bit less with Audience AU24SX but still present, there with AZ Silver Reg but no sibilance with Kimber and Nordost Tyr 2. I never experienced sibilance in this system with the AZ Absolute Coppers. There was always a super smooth midrange with delicate treble but the bass was too plump with my Wilsons and the Pass monos. I struck gold with Nordost Tyr 2 XLRs. My speaker cables are Audience AU24SX 

So the moral of the story is - you still have not done due diligence with the cables. 

@audphile1 

Thanks for your suggestions.

I have used The Cable Co. in the past and felt very positive about them but my last experience was so negative, I'm not sure I'd want to go back. 

I had A. Zen Silver Reference and they worked great in my previous system but were too bright once I acquired the Hegel and Jay's. So I tried the Absolute Copper but they were extremely dark sounding, top to bottom. 

I'd be very happy if my problem could be solved via cables.

AZ Absolute Copper are warm. But don’t forget with higher resolution components like your Jays cdt and Aqua DAC + H390 that may be a welcome change. I ruled your speakers out - there’s nothing there that will give you that sibilance.
If you can, try the Nordost Tyr 2. Used they’re not terrible price wise for the sound upgrade they bring to the table. You can sell them if they don’t work out but I doubt that will be the case. They’re excellent cables. Much more refined top to bottom than the older Nordost lines which I wouldn’t recommend as a remedy for brightness and sibilance. 

How old is your Aqua? Chances are it won’t change too much but most times I’ve found DACs do change after 400-500 hours run time (though in my case they usually got a bit more detailed). But if it’s new you may want to run it constantly for a few days just to see if anything changes. If I recall correctly I think in one review of the La Voce the reviewer found it a bit strident on the top end compared to some other DACs. I know you said you didn’t want brand recommendations but you may want to look at Mojo audio DACs based on what you said about the Hegel vs the Aqua DAC. They have nice organic tone but are not rough on top at all, and mine sounded best when run from a good transport.

@jimmy2615 

Aqua is well broken in by now. 

Thanks for the Mojo suggestion. As it happens, I was all set to replace the  Aqua with a Mojo but Benjamin expressed concern about my transport, so I bought the Jay's instead (couldn't afford both). 

@jimmy2615 ...If I recall correctly I think in one review of the La Voce the reviewer found it a bit strident on the top end compared to some other DACs. 

I vaguely recalled a similar comment and looked back a few years to try and locate when folks were comparing the S2 vs. S3 versions of the La Voce dacs, and found members on another forum changing out caps in the S2 in an attempt to tame some of that with Jupiter Beez Wax caps and such. Not sure how it turned out. Maybe something there worth following up on to learn more.   

@stuartk 

I checked out your system page to get an idea of your room- beautiful house! Your options for speaker placement don’t seem to be working in your favor though.

The open doorway behind your left speaker and the right speaker almost in a corner are enough to cause issue. Not sure how WAF plays into your situation but have you considered rotating your monitors 90 clockwise? 
I doubt the sibilance your experiencing is a by product of your dac (assuming it’s in perfect working order). I believe the La Voce (while producing a very good presentation) is the warmest of the Aqua line when it comes to high frequency reproduction. I have the La Scala Optologic MKII and I’ve never noticed or felt the presentation to be sibilant (outside of what might be within a particular recording). I also believe purchasing a Border Patrol would be a step backwards in your case. 
I cannot comment on how the dac within your Hegel plays into this but I would definitely wager that it is not of the level of quality of your La Voce. While I cannot speculate as to what it’s doing differently in this case my guess would be that its presentation is just more rolled off and less transparent than that of the La Voce (but again that’s a guess). Any higher quality dac you purchase will probably present the same issues but with more magnitude.

Just as an experiment have you tried placing light acoustic materials around the various surfaces in your listening room just see what effects it may have?

Looking at your system and the comments, I assume that the sibilance was not an issue with the Wells and Moon setup? The Aqua is a pretty nice unit, I would be surprised that it is the source of the problem. Possibly it is making it more apparent, and the Hegel DAC smooths it over a bit. Playing Devil's Advocate, have you tried replacing the source (Jay's) with something else to see if the problem persists? I also thought to suggest bypassing the Hegel preamp, but looking at the back side it does not look like that can be done with this integrated.

@decooney

Perhaps @grannyring has some experience with such mods?

@designsfx

Unfortunately, changing speaker location is not an option. When we built the house, I was just beginning my audio journey. Aside from providing a space for components, I gave audio very little thought.

The dac in the Hegel does not sound rolled off to my ears. If there is any attenuation, it’s in the mids -- there’s an overall lean quality that I’d prefer was not present.

But the main difference I experience, having gone from having the Aqua in the system to listening to the Hegel’s dac several times, is the sense of ease and relief, as though I’ve unconsciously been holding my breath with the Aqua and can suddenly breathe freely when the Hegel’s dac is engaged. It’s not subtle. However, it does seem counterintuitive. I’d expect an r2r dac to be more relaxing.

I have experimented to some degree with covering the glass-topped coffee table, the glass-doored Craftsman bookcase and the tile hearth with fabric and foam dog beds. I’ve heard no difference. Nor does closing the drapes impact the SQ, as far as I can tell. FWIW, according to two experienced audiophile biddies, I have pretty good ears.

it's not clear to me why you would assume the Border Patrol would constitute a backwards step, but then, I've yet to hear it. My only impressions are derived from reviews. 

@zlone

You are correct -- no sibilance with Wells and Simaudio. As an experiment, I tried swapping in an old Jolida CDP as a transport but the sibilance was even worse. I also inserted the Aqua into the Hegel’s loop function, in which it takes over clocking functions and the sibilance was worse than using the Aqua without dac loop.

Hey @stuartk while I don’t directly know @grannyring myself, I believe he did some mod upgrades for another member friend here on another r2r dac model both of us owned prior. There are some older threads where he’s chimed in on the S2 vs. S3 version. This may depend on how much you might want to spend on the older version design dac vs. applying those funds to something different to try - would. be your call to decide.

You’ve mentioned the Border Patrol dac a few times, now, and prior. I can share I had a few DSD and other known R2R dacs (upgraded) before I decided to try the newer version Border Patrol SE-I DAC.  I was looking for something specific, with the tube design OUT of the direct signal path, since the rest of my system is all-tube today. The challenge is this dac gets better after the return policy period expires. In my case, there was no sending it back and I honestly don’t think about dacs any more since I acquired. the latest BP SE-I DAC. It’s right for my system. Works really well with my all tube system and with my other class A solid state amp too.  You'll find various comments on the dac, and there are different versions, caps, and transformers used depending on how current the dac is, gotta check this.

A friend wanted to try the new SE-I dac version too, and to compare with his own Audile S5 DAC he likes a lot with his all triode tube system he uses. He had Gary do the combo USB / Digital coax version too with the switch. Side by side, he shared the BP is musical, not lacking detail, yet the Audile [in HIS system] has a tad more detail up top in his triode system, already a tad rolled off I guess. Both of us have been messing with and returning back to TDA1541 and TDA1543 chip based dacs vs R2R resistor ladder dacs. Our preference for our own reasons. I think it’s all system-dependent, and each dac mentioned [above] in this thread can perform differently in each of our systems. That’s why trying it in your system is the only way to know what works better for you. I don’t miss any of my former dsd uber-detail or former R2R dacs having given the SE-I a try. Back to music now. Your preference could vary greatly, fwiw. Depends one what gels best in your system, room, setup, etc.

@decooney

Thanks, Duane. Yes -- I realize the only way I’ll know is to try it myself. To be honest, at this point, I’m feeling a bit overwhelmed by suggestions... hard to know what to try first.

I’m not after uber-detail. I bought the Hegel primarily for its bass grip and then discovered it significantly (in tandem with Jay’s) upped my systems resolution. At first, it seemed a revelation but over time, it’s become fatiguing. Familiar story, I know. My point is that I would gladly trade some resolution for musicality.

@stuartk do you have anyone locally who’s running either a Pass Labs or a Luxman integrated? May be you can bring that over and try it?

I still think the cable swap will tame that sibilance but ultimately it will either have to be the amp or the dac or both. 

@audphile1

Ironically, I live in the town where Pass was located for many years yet  know no one who has a Pass integrated. ;o)

I’d much rather replace the dac than the amp. My inclination is to sell the Aqua, try a Border Patrol and as you’ve suggested, try other cables.

You never did answer the question on cost for a new DAC (or I missed it). I have found Denafrips DACs (specifically the Pontus II, Terminator II, and Terminator Plus), to be extremely musical and almost tube like; yet perfectly detailed. Denafrips DACs are also a perfect pairing with the Jay's transports, connect directly with a high quality I2S (HDMI) cable....and the I2S pin outs match.

They unfortunately do not have a demo policy. There is a used Terminator Plus 12th for $4,800 at US Audio Mart....with free shipping. That is a steal that I'd buy for myself if I had the funds ready.

@stuartk hit me with the few tracks where you hear this sibilance. If available on qobuz and tidal, I’ll check what they sound like here. Can do it tomorrow I’ll be foggy today with the New Year celebration LOL

@audphile1 

I don't stream but Patty Griffin's "Useless Desires" is a particularly good example, if you don't mind looking it up. 

The thing is, I'm hearing it (with Aqua) on many tracks that never used to bother me.  This is why it's  a big deal. When I can't enjoy music I've loved for decades, it's a problem. Again, I never had this issue before I got the Hegel and the Jay's.

I had my hearing checked this year and was told there's nothing physiological that would cause this.

@stuartk 

Crystal clear. Qobuz stream…but… I can hear the potential for it. It is partially a recording but your components just let it fly. I can 100% guarantee you that if I had those Analysis Plus Silver Apex XLR it would cut thru my eardrums. 

This is something that interconnects like the AZ would most likely tame to a level where it would be listenable. I know exactly what you’re hearing now. This was good!

I’ll add….to further tame this after the interconnects, I would put the AQ Hurricane high power cord on the hegel. Smooth out that bandwidth and add texture and body to the mids.
Don’t sell the DAC it will be a mistake

@stuartk "When I run my Jay’s transport direct into the Hegel’s DAC, fatigue goes away and while there is still some sibilance, it is not nearly so exaggerated."

If this is the case, as you may be wondering, perhaps there is some form of impedance or voltage synergy mismatch going on between your Aqua DAC and the Jays transport that exaggerates the issue somehow [when paired together].

You might be on the right path borrowing/trying different dacs and transport combos paired with your Hegel 390 amp. You already proved the Jays transport does ok with your Hegel amp’s AKM internal dac, directly. A few more steps to narrow it down perhaps.

@stuartk 

perplexing- yet interesting as to why this would suddenly become so apparent to you. I do have a question though. When you set up your new transport did you set it up to run in “over sampling” mode?

@designsfx 

No. The display clearly indicates when oversampling is engaged. Out of curiosity I tried it when I was listening through headphones, tonight. Thin and harsh! Listening through phones with the Hegel dac is much clearer than with Aqua, which sounds very dark by comparison. My headphone setup is very modest- old Grado SR225 through Schiit Jotenheim but the difference is quite apparent

@audphile1 

Can you think of a less costly alternative to the Hurricane?

@decooney 

 perhaps there is some form of impedance or voltage synergy mismatch going on between your Aqua DAC and the Jays transport that exaggerates the issue somehow [when paired together].

Yes, perhaps. Rather above my pay-grade, although I have experienced certain anomalies in the past that might be explained by this theory. My Empirical Audio re-clocker did not play nice with my Simaudio 260DT transport and more recently, a similar issue arose when I attempted to mate a Snake River Audio Boomslang coax cable with the Jay's.