How to get into high end digital? (Feeding a DAC)

@holmz
It’s difficult to understand what you are targeting when your OP says “high end digital” (what does this mean to you?) and it appears you have not stated a budget.  
Generally speaking, digital audio playback requires a server(where music files stored)> streamer(transportation/delivery of music files) > DAC (translates files to an audio signal).  If you want to spin SACD/CDs, you’ll also need a transport.
…

Well I was not thinking much of budget, but less than 10k.


But high-end to me would be something that sounds good and does not sound like it is obviously coming from a CD player.

A CD player has both a transport and DAC built in.  In high-end audio, for best performance it is generally better to separate the functions to better isolate components from vibrations and electrical noise but costs more in casework and additional cables.  Also, usually a DAC+transport is significantly sonically better than a CD player unless you spend considerable $ for a higher quality player.  For greater flexibility (upgrades), better performance, and lower cost, most high-end digital systems have a stand alone DAC vs a CD player.

Since the AVR has the Roon End-Point and DAC built in, I will try that first. Plus it has some built in room correction, so maybe that will help sound in terms of bass and EQ, without destroying imaging?
I’ll see I guess.

@holmz
It’s difficult to understand what you are targeting when your OP says “high end digital” (what does this mean to you?) and it appears you have not stated a budget.  
Generally speaking, digital audio playback requires a server(where music files stored)> streamer(transportation/delivery of music files) > DAC (translates files to an audio signal).  If you want to spin SACD/CDs, you’ll also need a transport.

A CD player has both a transport and DAC built in.  In high-end audio, for best performance it is generally better to separate the functions to better isolate components from vibrations and electrical noise but costs more in casework and additional cables.  Also, usually a DAC+transport is significantly sonically better than a CD player unless you spend considerable $ for a higher quality player.  For greater flexibility (upgrades), better performance, and lower cost, most high-end digital systems have a stand alone DAC vs a CD player.

your 2 channel will be fine.  Can it be better?  Of course it can.  It can always be better, but at what cost?  That's when you figure out what to do with 2 channel.  Try it the way you are doing and then we can talk, lol.  :). 

I have the Topping D90.  It has very nice parts in it.  I would say very neutral and transparent.  I can only comment on the comparison to the Bluesound Node 2i DAC.  The Denafrips Pontus gets very good reviews and is R2R.  $1694

OK - I think maybe the best near term plan is to await the AVR arrival and just try Roon on it… Then I’ll see if the 2 channel if good enough with it.

And yes, NUCs (running good streaming software ike Roon or ???) and Raspberry Pis are really strong contenders. That said they both demand attention to clean power, or better yet, segmented power with clean and dirty functions handled independently. You might be surprised how many commercial product embed a RPi or similar. Hey, i might. Nothing wrong with a solid, mass produced platform that on fixes the weaknesses of.
Oh, and to a couple who posted, my comment about "the answer being component X" was aimed at no one in particular - just more a process comment that understanding comes before selection IMO.

"I am already running a NUC for the NetFlix streamer, and another for Linux so I am familiar with them. (& thanks for the links - I’ll give them a whirl) I guess I come out of the NUC on one of the HMDI ports? And into the HT-AVR/Pre?"

Cool. John Darko has a good video about setting up a NUC as Roon Core.  
No, you don't connect it to the Pre, just leave it near your router and add it via ethernet to a switch or the router itself. Your Roon Ready pre will be set up as the "Roon Endpoint", pulling the play queue from the NUC. You control it all via phone, tablet and perhaps from your HT pre depending on its features. Cheers,
Spencer

@dabel Making progress, albeit slowly. Even the internet service is back without disruption since Saturday. My local pharmacy is finally back up and stocked (for now). Grocery stocks and resupply are still variable. Deliveries are sporadic.

We are in Metairie. Things, of course, are much worse further south and west of us. Went for my first bike ride (since Ida) along the south shore levy and it’s nearly cleaned up. Stinks, though. : )

The eight foot gator along the path was enjoying sunbathing.

Thanks for checking in.

@itsjustme  +1  regarding Hans Beekhuyzen

"which cheap ones sound expensive?”
I wouldn’t call any of Gustard line I looked at => X26PRO/A22/older-A20H "cheap DAC", because all of them are built to very high standards, and use first league expensive components, very nice printed circuit boards, clean layout, CNC machined enclosure, excellent analog power blocks etc. Sound of X26PRO & A22 is 10/10, A20H 9/10

It looks like most of the sane people are here in digital:-) Keep it up jasonbourne and sensesundertime. It is nice to hear the voice of sanity.

The nice thing about digital information is that it is very hard to corrupt. Just look at the difference between analog and digital cell phones. It is either a zero or a one. Computers are blind to everything else. You can corrupt digital information on purpose with compression or a reduction in sampling rates. The only thing a cable can do is limit bandwidth but it is so easy to make a cable with acceptable bandwidth it is hard to imagine that any cable sold for digital use would do that to the extent it would corrupt a 24/192 signal. 

Our ears are very sensitive but they are terrible measuring devices. There is no way they can be calibrated. The other interesting characteristic of our hearing physiology is you can easily remember what you heard but you can remember how it sounded. You can intentionally characterize what you heard such as noting that the bass sounded great. In real time you can relate the sound to previous exposures. The bass sounds better today than the last concert I went too. Try to recall how something sounded without thinking in words. You can't. Thinking you can is like telling us you can fly, without a flying device. Measurements do not cover every eventuality but it is the best we have for quantifying the performance of an audio system. Relying on what any human thinks something sounded like is a very big mistake as you can witness when listening to the tweak gang ramble on. I am not saying that you can not improve the performance of your audio system by listening to it. You most certainly can. In real time you can easily identify weakness and with the appropriate measures most weakness can be overcome. You can remember what you heard but you can't remember what t sounded like.

Getting back to the OP, Get yourself a used Oppo or a new Reavon. Either unit will do everything you want. No need to take up more space than you have to. You are not going to get better DACs as stand alone units without spending more than you want. It does not sound like you want to get into computer audio but the Oppo has a USB input anyway.

I think Hans provides a ton of good, basic, information in a user-friendly format (unlike here).  I'm also not terribly interested in his specific product suggestions.  The goal is for the OP to triage and make his own (her own? who knows).


I cannot, of course, comment on objections that you don’t specify, but if some audiophiles get unhappy with someone it typically says to me "he must be on to something"


And as one who has worked in various aspects of digital sound, video and synchronization, on and off, directly and indirectly for 35 years, i feel comfortable with my opinion. This extends from high end product and contract design to my real work at places like leading research labs, plus SMPTE, MPEG, and others.  I mean, we're just looking to demystify the basics.

Moreover, I’ve spent enough time to tune in my own system, using modestly price stuff and get impressive results against stuff costing 5-10X. Bear in mind my goal is not just the sound, its to learn where and how i might be able to make a jump in price/performance and/or simplify this admittedly befuddling topic.

So i will double don on him giving a great overview to new players in digital about what is what, what terms of art mean, how they go together, and what he feels makes a difference.


I cant speak for the areas you think he has been in error, but i know I’ve made mistakes. I presume you have too. As Charlie Brown quipped when Lucy Van Pelt noted that we learn from our mistakes: "that must make me the smartest person in the whole world"

I really don't like having to deal with overly strong, even if they have merit, comments that are not backed up by enough facts to know the difference. Let's be measured and cite our sources.


G

@holmz I advise finding a dealer that suits your needs, style and preference from anywhere in the country. There are many who are terrific in supporting their clients, irrespective of location. Some are especially strong in modern (current) digital system building.

A resource to start with are the threads in this forum that list recommended dealers. You can also evaluate some of those dealers based on their posts in the digital related and focused threads.

I suggest speaking with at least three and going with the one you have the best gut feel for.

Given your lack of exposure and experience with digital, a guiding hand will likely prove invaluable. It’s also the best way to demo the units within your own system, once you establish a relationship.

BTW, a good friend has the Merging stack and is extremely impressed. It’s outside of your budget but performs at a level significantly above the two DAC models you have been focused on.

I encourage you to think beyond a single component...the DAC in your case. It’s critical to have a comprehensive consideration / approach for everything from the incoming ISP signal through to the DAC.

All the best and good luck.

Find a local audiophile or dealer who has achieved "something" with digital and learn from them.

Good one…

• There are no dealers near by.
  
• The one that I am most familiar with (In SoCal) has the Merging+.

I'll jump in, with no answers but some suggestions.  In fact, i'll suggest that you ignore all specific answers nad spend some time learning.  "product X" is almost never the answer.

There have been a ton of excellent threads that several folks, me included have contributed to.  The bottom line is that you need to learn about digital interfaces at some level ( i realize not all are engineers), their issues, and basic approaches to fixing the issues.

A few resources are helpful.  he best, IMO is Hans Beekhuysen:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR4tuhqPppVp-PD0q17sPEA
he's become the digital audio guy. he has an e-book out, and several (free) Youtube sessions on various topics. I assure you he knows his stuff.

John Darko has much simpler, though less meaty stuff, as is his niche.

You can also find and read the way-behind-schedule but meaty blogs at Sonogy Research. One is on why the digital interface is not in fact purely digital.  Warning: you must go back to your high school math which many of the youtube "bits is bits" pundits apparently forgot.

In the end, for both practical and sonic reasons i targe some variant of ethernet to USB, and to clean up that USB.  Much of this as to do with clean grounds/power, and ensuring low jitter.  The rest is mumbo jumbo.

In general I'd put SPDIF from a CD player dead last almost regardless of who's magic box it is.  And transport is just a CDP with the DAC bypassed and the solid i2S internal interface replaced with the timing-challenged SPDIF (no timing lead).

Enjoy the journey.
G

I would start with one switch. See what happens.  Top end switches start at circa 700/- so its not as if it would break the bank.  Check out reviews.  See what other people say about that item.   Not to be disloyal, but I find whatsbest and audiophilestyle are easily the most informative forums for things audio. 

Why does good support improve sound?   That's easy.  There are a few thousand itty bitty pieces of stuff in an amp (or any electrical unit) - things like capacitors, rectifiers, resistances etc.  Each of them vibrates a tiny bit at their own resonant frequency in response to the vibration from the music and transformers, etc.  This generates their own tiny signal in the overall electrical field of the amp.  Thousands of these conflicting signals are feeding into the main signal.  That's emi inside the unit = hash.  There are various ways of dealing with the vibration....you can use mass for damping, special materials to line the walls of the unit, springs to try to make the  whole unit move as one in response to outside vibration, cones (they are like mechanical valves) to block outside vibrations.  On top of the vibration from speakers, a fun fact to keep in mind is that Earth is constantly at Richter 1-2. 

In my opinion, the best are those devices that drain entropy, preventing transfer of vibration into the component and at the same time cancelling internal vibration.  They also work for speakers by decoupling them from room effects.  In fact, it is with footers for speakers where I found the most significant improvements.  Relatively expensive, but worth every cent.  

I've elaborated a bit here because, in my opinion, these particular sub species of footers along with audiophile switches are both the best bang for the buck in audio at its current state of development.  They are SOUND QUALITY amplifiers, even for relatively cheap equipment.  Much smarter upgrade path than buying more expensive equipment.

Not sure what magnetic platters do....I have never used one.

Good power cords block emi and clean up the signals and improve SQ in ways that I don't really understand, but have empirical experience of.  Its easy to test this.  Just try to compare a couple of ac cables, give them ten minutes of play time before judging.  You should get a taste of what you will finally get after 5-600 hundred hours of usage (this is a dead crazy hobby we have got ourselves into).  Again, there are great ac cables starting at circa 200/-.

Hope this is helpful and not too long winded.

Best wishes

I guess I should have expanded a bit on the baggage.
The Yiggy has some historical baggage as one of the worst measuring expensive DACs when it was first introduced. That no longer seems to be the case but since it is R2R that makes it somewhat like the tube equivalent of DACs since R2R is considered to color the sound instead of being transparent. That is true of all R2R DACs not just the Yiggy.

Thanks @trevalinjack

Probably liking Neil Gaimon has coloured the Yggdrasil to be worth a left n_t or at least a left eye… which are somewhat similar to an extent.

OP

You sound stressed.  Relax.  Digital is easy. 

I am less stressed than usual…
(but it does seems < easy) ;)

You could use a computer ,using a Ethernet cable 
then to isolate digital noise there are several good Ethernet hubs 
like uptone audio Ether Regen , and Ethernet cables absolutely make a difference , for I had had the latest Topping which measures great
but musically not that engaging, having very good filtering , regulation and linear power supplies , internal dac chips in the D&A  conversion  for my smaller system the Denafrips pontus-2 
was much better musically . My Bricasti M3 with Streamer board
totally isolated the complete Digital feed ,using Ethernet ,
the digital packet stream is cleaned which digital noise is present
from your modem to router carried noise from the outside , a Ether regen  ,or IS2 signal eliminates the noise before it reaches your streamer . In theBricasti case it’s design eliminates this before converting with filtering ,pre,and post regulation and electrically isolated internally .
The streamer in the same chassis with the dac on a very well designed  unit eliminates extra powercord, and cable even lower noise floor for totally isolated internally and yes I have compared to good separate servers like with Melco ,No added expenses, more and more high end companies are offering  Dacwith streamer module boards .
look at Blusound for $550  that's a great dealforamodest setup , the Bricasti is $6500 retail. But loaded with quality throughout and is modular for future upgrades ,their top model is $16k. My point is quality build , and  design count in musicality. As technology evolves the prices reflect this and are coming down.

I guess I should have expanded a bit on the baggage.
The Yiggy has some historical baggage as one of the worst measuring expensive DACs when it was first introduced. That no longer seems to be the case but since it is R2R that makes it somewhat like the tube equivalent of DACs since R2R is considered to color the sound instead of being transparent. That is true of all R2R DACs not just the Yiggy.

@Holmz

OP

You sound stressed.  Relax.  Digital is easy.  Get a decent CDP or transport, a cable that is at least one step above Radio Shack, plug into a DAC or else just use the DAC in the CDP, sit back and enjoy music.  Add a streamer later if you want, or else just use a computer for that (presumably you own one of those already).
  It would help if you told what your budget is.  You are all over the place.  I don’t want to recommend an $80K digital set up if your budget is 8 cents

A $500 Cambridge CXC transport + a $300 Khadas DAC is a formidable combination!

@henry53: parts costs to build DACs are are in the hundreds at most! Four-figure  and up DACs are high-profit items! Don't forget these companies are into it to make money!

Pure digital is totally accurate but not everyone's cup of tea. We are influenced by our past.

If I can measure the output and compare it to the input and see that it more true than comparing that stream to the Vinyl, then I can convince myself.
I may not like it, but I am pretty much a “by the numbers fellow”.
And I would then likely try and understand why I like the worse one better.
I know that is the case comparing my VTLs to the Haus-Boss’s NAD amp. The VTLS have a huge amount of IMD. The NAD was more faithful to the input.

Thanks @buddyboy1 that sounds similar to the Yggdrasil with the R2R.
@jasonbourne52 what is the impedance of coax? I would think if it is 50 or 75 ohms, then the VSWR would be low?

If I did the maths right then the speed-o-light/44.1kS/sec is ~6800 meters between samples.
@aubreybobb I appreciate you taking the time to write it up, but using 3 switches seems like it is like almost like a holy Trinity. And no one has been able to tell me how feet, power cords, and magnetic platters can affect bits… so I am unsure whether this is measurable?

@pindac : a coax digital cable should be no less than 1.5 meters in length to avoid reflections.

There's a reason the Denafrips Ares 2 DAC is so widely praised by reviewers and users alike......It's Wonderful and Musical and is compared to DACs that cost 2 or 3 times the price of the Ares 2.  It's definitely a DAC you should have on your list.

Have been all digital this last 15 years, and my current thinking is that for digital, unlike many of the views expressed earlier, everything mattters.

Simplisticly put, instead of a continuous stream (analog) the music is chopped up (sampled) and then recombined to simulate the original analog stream.  Theoretically, since the sampling is so quick, the ear cannot detect the difference.  What the ear does detect, however, are the inaccuracies in the process.  That is jitter.  Reducing jitter is what it's about.

The recompiling is timed by a clock which emits a 'ping' every fraction of a second. This ping corresponds to a marker embedded during the sampling process in the signal.  The more this is in sync, the less jitter, the purer the signal.  

So all digital devices have a 'clock'.  The better the clock the better your music will sound.  But like everything, there is no magic bullet here. If you feed in garbage, even though the very good quality clock you might have struggles valiantly, it can improve the signal only partially.  So you have to clean up the signal as much as possible before it hits the final clock prior to conversion back to analog. 

This means digital devices need much of the same treatment as analog:

Good powerGood components
Good component support/footersGood cabling
Hopefully, this argument has indicated that timing (reduced jitter) is all important in digital systems. 
And finally, here is the good news for those of you who have managed to get through all of the above:  After all this, you can STILL get the signal reclocked and cleaned up hugely by a relatively new device...the audiophile switch.  The reclocking in them is far more accurate than the clock in most DAC's.   They work even better in a cascade (series) as each stage cleans up the signal more.  Price for these switches vary from usd 700/- to many thousands. 

My system comprises router/NAS > streamer > dac with 3 audiophile switches in series prior to the streamer. The addition of each streamer marked an large order of improvement. 

Most audiophile switches come with the capability of using fibre optic (which can be immune to electrical effects) instead of copper wire, but that's another story.  

So, once you got the basics sorted, i.e. storage device, streamer and dac, to get to serious high end sound you should clean up the signal more with audiophile switches.  This will help no matter how high end the clock in your final digital component, the dac, is. 

The never ending story here is using external clocks!  These are accurate to atomic standards and there is a whole cult built up around implementing them.  My first one arrives in a couple of weeks!

Best wishes, and hope this diatribe has been of use.  I have avoided talking about branded components to avoid the appearance of shilling.  My 2 cents.

Not really trying to be contentious however a cheap DAC sounds like a cheap DAC, a cheap CD player sounds like a cheap CD player, a cheap turntable sounds like a cheap turntable. Unfortunately some expensive ones do too? But not all.

OK then… which cheap ones sound expensive?

So far I have a list which includes:

• Topping
  
• Schitt Yggdrasil 
  
• Khadas 2 Tone Pro Dac
  
• Empirical Audio Off-Ramp 5
  
• Gustard X26 Pro
  

But if I have to spend 20kilobucks, then I am pretty much out… and I’ll just use an iPad.
I have been hearing since the 80s that CDs/digital is God’s gift… but then 40 years on, it is stuff like, “Well how can a CD compare to a 5-10k$+ vinyl setup.” 

And then half my friends and workmates swear by Sonos, which I do not really see much benefit in… other than ease of setup.

doesn't come with the R2R baggage of the Schiit Yiggy.

And I thought that R2R sounded like a good solution?

Not really trying to be contentious however a cheap DAC sounds like a cheap DAC, a cheap CD player sounds like a cheap CD player, a cheap turntable sounds like a cheap turntable. Unfortunately some expensive ones do too? But not all. 

The OP asked into HIGH END digital... Not your basic run of the mill digital.

I think I am the OP ;)

Empirical Audio Off-Ramp 5, USB Audio Digital Converter. Eat your heart out...

How's that for a USB isolator!

Sorry holmz, I had to

Exhausting...

I am not exhausted yet… (Thanks)

OK so it looks like the MUC send the audio out of the USB?
And would sit between a NUC and a DAC?

I would say abandon the CD player.  Rip everything to FLAC or get digital copies online of the albums you want.
Do you have an old laptop?  If so, use that as your music server.  Buy a large external hard drive and fill it with music.
The Topping D90 is fine.  It is a solid Delta Sigma DAC and doesn't come with the R2R baggage of the Schiit Yiggy.
I replaced all my CDs with DSD, FLAC, and ALAC files over the last few years.  I used my old work ThinkPad T430 to rip the CDs and now use it as my music server.  I send the music files by USB output to a now discontinued SMSL M8 DAC.  If I were shopping for DACs now the D90 would be on my short list.

One the laptop, in Windows 10, I have networked the drive.  I use Foobar2000 as my media player on the laptop and the Foobar2000 Controller app on my phone as a remote control.

The convenience of having all music so easily available to play anytime.  Browse the files using the controller app on my phone and play from anywhere in the house.

The op asked how to get into digital. Easy USB. Maybe a USB isolator. That eliminates virtually every issue no matter what audiophiles may convince themselves of.

Does this infer a NAS playing/buffering into DAC?
Or
Does it also infer some CD player going in in real-time?

I'm sure by now we all understand that "Digital is all zeros and ones".

As we were advised all those years ago, "oils ain't oils".

Getting those bits off the medium and into a perfect electrical stream without contamination is the real issue and it ain't necessarily that easy to achieve.

Converting an electrical signal to optical and then back to optical just adds additional complexity that doesn't seem to have any benefits. 

Pure digital is totally accurate but not everyone's cup of tea. We are influenced by our past


Not true nothing in audio is totally accurate. Solid state has distortion also, it's just not very pleasant to the ears.

Find a local audiophile or dealer who has achieved "something" with digital and learn from them.

Good one…

• There are no dealers near by.
  
• The one that I am most familiar with (In SoCal) has the Merging+.
  

https://nadac.merging.com/product/merging-player

Hence I am here… and going slowly trying to come up with a sensible plan.

Based on a lot of listening and testing with friends and by myself, i have found that getting the best source is more important than getting the best DAC.  Figure your budget and then you can find out which DAC and server play best together.  There are so many very good options for each that are 'affordable'.  The higher you get in a DAC (cost), the fewer compromises it should have.  that's not always the case, but it's a general starting point.  I also have found out that cost isn't the be all end all for DAC's.  Codex is still a GREAT option for an under 2k DAC.  It's actually pretty amazing, but most aren't even talking about it as it's an older DAC now, but Ayre Ariel at Ayre designed it and made it to be a DAC that would go against the 5k DAC's.  They actually cost Ayre a ton of money to make.

Then you have a ton of DAC's by solo shops. Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio is another solo shop and what a shop it is.  He is as smart digitally as anyone I have ever met and spoken to.  There are some others who folks discuss on the boards.