How much difference will a phono stage upgrade make?

@atisv99 - thanks for checking in. The bottom line is that I really like the Manley Chinook. How does it compare to other phono stages like the Herron? I don’t know because I’ve never heard one in my system. Going back to my original question, however, yes, it made enough of a difference in sound quality to justify the expense. I have a very low output cartridge (Ortofon MC Black) and the extra 5 dB of gain that the MKII offers seems to be a significant benefit to getting the Special Edition.

I would be curious to hear more about the EAT phono stages if you decide to go that route. I briefly looked into that as an option but for whatever reason I was fixated on the Chinook. (I was interested in the Herron, too, but it was beyond my financial reach.)

On a side note, but relevant in terms of support and customer service, the first Chinook that was sent to me was dead in the water. It wouldn’t fire up at all. After minimal back-and-forth with Kat at Upscale, a new one was express shipped to me and I sent the first one back directly to Manley. Both Upscale and Manley worked to resolve the issue as quickly as possible. Disappointed but not deterred, I waited an extra couple of days to get one that worked, but it was all very painless. The second one lit right up and has been working beautifully ever since.

Thanks to all on this forum who offered useful advice on this topic.

I lost 50 IQ points just reading that one. On the bright side though I don’t need to clean my records, just buy a better phono stage. So I got that going for me.

A good phono section will have less ticks and pops even though it is wider bandwidth. Its always nice to find out that your LP collection isn’t as bad off as you thought it was.

What most people don’t realize is that the phono preamp, in addition to enough gain and proper EQ, must also be stable and resistant to Radio Frequency Interference (RFI). This is because a significant amount of RFI is generated by the cartridge itself in the form of bursts of energy at the resonant frequency of the inductance of the cartridge which is in parallel with the capacitance of the interconnect cable. The RFI can cause ticks and pops due to overload of the phono section input. That resonant peak I mentioned can be about 30dB!!


Many designers don’t realize that- hence phono sections that don’t deal with this issue very well.

A side benefit of RFI immunity and stability is that the cartridge no longer has to be ’loaded’ to sound right. This allows it to be more supple and can thus trace high frequencies easier. IOW loading a cartridge causes it to do more work and that in turn stiffens the cantilever, just like shorting the terminals of a woofer makes it stiffer.

12hz, this is a sideways answer to your interest in the Chinook.

I owned a Manley Jumbo Shrimp and Snapper amps for a couple of years.  I was very pleased with the sonics of both but a problem developed with unstable bias in one amp.  I lived in SoCal then and ended up taking the amp to the factory for repair.  It was a weird problem to diagnose and required two tries, but I was still pleased by how fairly they treated me (it was out of warranty).  

Also I was able to take their factory tour twice and I was quite impressed by their operation.  Also I've spoken with EveAnna a few times and enjoyed her enthusiasm and knowledge.

I do not have direct experience in auditioning the Chinook, but have no hesitancy in recommending Manley products.  I believe they are a first rate company.

I will also say I've auditioned Herron electronics at shows and a friend's system, as well as talking with Keith.  I've been impressed by him and his products as well and endorse them if they fit one's budget.

@12hz - it's been 6 months now, did you end up with the Chinook? If so, how are you liking it over your previous stage?

Also, was curious if you gave any thought to one of the E-Glo stages from EAT - since you could then share their Linear Power Supply for the phono stage with your C-Sharp? I'm currently considering this setup myself, as I also have the C-Sharp...

Thanks

12hz, before you start dropping coin on a new phono stage, you may want to look at the load resistors in your current model. Replace them with Vishay foils and you will be shocked at the reduction in noise, and improvement in low level detail without changing the frequency balance.

would agree with photon46, spending a lot more does not mean better. Have dropped 6K on a phono stage only to find out it was not as good as what I had.

the EAR 834s (real and clones) are also really good.

J

I think one of the best values in phonostages is the Pass Labs Xono.  It is a very underrated unit.  Works great with MC and MM cartridges and has a lot of flexibility when it comes to loading.  Fremer recently posted about this unit on his website Analog Planet.  He actaully said he believed it to be one of the best at the time.  It's a great unit and Pass has great support.

The op’s question is not so much is something better than the Manley - but if it will be a worthwhile and significant upgrade. IMHO when you have a jump in the price of a component you can and ought to expect a jump in sound quality as well - it may expose weaknesses elsewhere - and that’s a slippery road down (or is it up) the upgrade path. 
Perhaps you ought to ponder this. I have read review after review saying x is better than anything twice the price - yet at the next price point up they same the same thing about y - reviewers nonsense. In my experience a well matched more expensive is almost invariably better than a cheaper well matched component in a given set up - cables (in my set up) are the exception. 
So try and get a home audition and try the Manley out - try a few others and don’t get obsessed with topology and circuit - get what sounds good to you.

Dear @bdp24 @jmolsberg  : Ask to any tube electronics manufacturer in the 1K-40K range price and every one will tell you that tubes is the way to go. both of you

They are making money through " audiophiles "  for many years and as all them and professional reviewers no one of them can and never will do the whole true about tubes and why are not for reproduce MUSIC at audio home systems.

They make $$$$ because each one of us ignorance and thak's to that heavy corrupted AHEE where all of us belongs and was there where those manufactuerrs/reviewer told us that tubes are the nirvana for audio and you and me belived ! ! ! but some us fortunatellu learned about and I can see that you don't learned yet.

Here in this forum and other net forums I had several dialogues with tube manufacturers and no proved is the way to go and I proved all them that is not the way to go.

Common sense: if I'm making money big money with tube electronics why stop to do it or tell the consumers is not the " glory ".

You will learn, sooner or latter.

Btw, how many times both of you or any other tube system did have the experience in a live MUSIC event to listen it seated at near field position ( 1m-2m. ) from the source. How many times? if you did not have this experiences it's time you look for and then you will understand why tubes is just out of place. No matters what very well regarded manufacturers have to say. I already said: no one can't be against making $$$$$

R.

^ i own his glorious phono pre and boy did he get that one right! 

Keith Herron worked in the pro sound field for years, designing and making solid state electronics exclusively. He now makes solid state power amps for the consumer market, but when it comes to phono and line stages chose to go with tubes. He did so for a reason. Ask him, he'll tell you all about it. And yes, Keith is a music lover.

@rauliruegas: 

Thank you for your considered and thoughtful input. I don’t think I’ll get rid of my tube gear just yet, but I always appreciate different perspectives.

Have a great weekend and yes, enjoy the music.

-12Hz

Dear @12hz and firends : Almost all in this thread are tube lover pre-historic/arcaic technology and is fine with me.

Note that I said " tube lovers " not MUSIC lovers. Because if you were/been true MUSIC lovers then all of you will stay out/far away from tubes.

Tubes can't ( the technolgy of tubes can't do it, is very limited for MUSIC and today audio standards to really enjoy MUSIC. ) honor MUSIC.
Which one of you tube lovers already has the first hand experience to stay/be seated in a live MUSIC event at NEAR FIELD position?.

Near field position means 1m-2m from the MUSIC source that's where normally the recording sessions/proccess microphones are positioned/seated.

Because that's the way we have to listen what comes out from our speakers. Live MUSIC is not sweet but brigth is not warm but agressive is not lush but with a full power we can feel it is not " organic " either.

So, if you like tube electronics then what you like is the hardware but not the source/software that's the star in each one of us room/audio system: MUSIC and its reality.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R:

I just upgraded ( bought used unheard but read reviews) to an Ayre P5 XE and was totally blown away by the improvement in sound so yes an upgrade should make great difference .

+1 on the Chinook. I have had it for a couple of years with 3 cartridges. Superb 

I rolled out of the ElectroHarmonix and Sovteks. Ive got NOS Telefunken in the phono stage now. Lush sound, but alot of rush at my listening levels

Phono tubes, especially NOS, are tricky to get right. I'm lucky to have a local tube dealer that brings a stash of tubes to my house so we can listen to them in my system before I buy them. The other way I have gotten great tubes is to call Andy over at Vintage Tube Services and see what he recommends. 

chakster2,484 posts03-04-2019 9:56am

 You'll see that Kevin Deal highly recommends the Chinook with the Primaluna as a good match. 

Kevin Deal is a tube dealer, what else he can recommend?
He also a dealer of Manley Lab. gear

yes he does. He also sells dozens of other brands including SS preamps.  He isn’t recommending the chinook so he can get rich selling 4 replacement tubes. He’s making a solid recommendation as I and others have said.  

OP you will love it, I’m sure. Please report back!  And if you don’t, Kevin accepts returns. 

Croft Audio phono preamp. The best $1000 you'll ever spend. Needle Doctor. 

He's coming from a  Pro-Ject Tube Box DS. Could throw a dart, anything within range guaranteed to be a skin-tingling revelatory experience. Hard to go wrong with any phono stage at this level. Ought to make him very happy indeed.

Thanks everyone for a lively discussion and lots of useful feedback. I pulled the trigger yesterday on the Manley Chinook Special Edition MK II, so I’ll be up and running with a new phono stage this weekend sometime if all goes as planned. 

I would consider the iPhono II. I have one but recently upgraded to the Allnic H1201. Head to head, the differences were more subtle than expected (although the Allnic was green). The iPhono provides tremendous performance in a small package withlots of flexibility.

papafrgog, sorry I misinformed you. The tubes that Aesthetix sold me were JJs, not Sovteks.

Regardless, the replacement Gold Lion B759s are working wonderfully for me.

 You'll see that Kevin Deal highly recommends the Chinook with the Primaluna as a good match.

Kevin Deal is a tube dealer, what else he can recommend? 
He also a dealer of Manley Lab. gear. 

Gold Note PH-10 is a new generation of SS phono stages
JLTi is also superb SS phono stage for MM/MC 
both very reasonably priced

 

I would disagree with Leotis on this one.  Sure, there is some small amount of distortion that tubes MAY add, but it's negligible.  You'll see that Kevin Deal highly recommends the Chinook with the Primaluna as a good match.  My experience is the same.  I moved from 2 different SS phono stages (Musical Fidelity and PhonoBox RS), both good in their own right.  And I find the Chinook betters both by a long shot.

Also, above I didn't mention that I use an ART9 cartridge.  I do find a tiny bit more gain would be good.  And, the latest version delivers an extra 5 db of gain.  I sent mine in to have that added so I can try it out.  I don't want to add an SUT to the mix.

I have Dialogue HP INT also.I would never use a tube phono stage. (YMMV haha!)
Many people who should know say tubed phono = too much distortion.You don’t want my suggestion, but Sutherland 20/20 w/ PL Dialogue HP sounds pretty fine IMO.

mmai -  Thanks so much for the info. I talked with Glenn at Aesthetix and he gave some tube ideas so I rolled out of the ElectroHarmonix and Sovteks. Ive got NOS Telefunken in the phono stage now. Lush sound, but alot of rush at my listening levels. But I have no point of reference. So your info is helpful. I could probably live with rush at the level you’re describing. For no particular reason, I haven’t tried Gold Lions but I definitely will. I’m all for a solution under $8,000 - so I can get that Lyra cartridge instead!!

Now, to answer your question, we could probably agree (or not) that Herron could be better in some systems, and Chinook in others.  But, the Herron costs double.  So, for me, moving up from $800 Jolida to $2500 (retail) Chinook, I don't see a reason to go up to almost $4k for the minimal difference in sound quality.  For another $1500, I'd expect to be blown away, and I
wasn't.

@soundermn:
Thanks so much for that detailed input. My thoughts exactly in terms of the jump in price to the Herron. It gets to the heart of my original post—I want to be blown away if I’m spending this much money on a component. I’m feeling more confident now about making this purchase and what it will yield in terms of a step-up in sound quality. 

Regarding cwb3rd’s post about Keith Herron above: your customer service from Keith is not unique. I have experienced the same level of above-and-beyond service from him over the years. It started the very first day that I received the VTPH2 (now upgraded to 2A). It was 10 pm, I was trying to connect it to my integrated amp, and having problems. I emailed Keith, expecting to have to wait until at least the next day to get his reply and hear my new preamp. Moments later, he called me and very patiently helped me figure out the problem and walked me through the setup. That was just the first of many times he has provided similarly great service (and NO-that does not mean I’ve had problems with the VTPH, just that I have had many questions and requests as my other components and cartridges have changed, and I’ve upgraded it). This is just how Keith is. One of the true gentlemen (and most definitely a “scholar”—he knows his engineering and music) in the hi fi business.  To be clear: I don’t have any connection to him other than being a happy customer. The VTPH2A is a fantastic piece. I will never sell it! Best of luck to you.

Back in the day I was blown away by the legendary Magnepan Tympani IVa , when the dealer insisted on showing me the ARC SP8 (phono/pre). The phono made more difference than the best speaker made !!! 

So yes - get the best phono you can stretch to afford and keep it forever. My opinion.

I have both the Manley Chinook and the EAR 834P. FWIW, here are my impressions.
Both are excellent overall. I prefer the Chinook with MM cartridges, and the EAR with low output cartridges. Maybe it’s because the EAR has step ups for mc.  With the Chinook I alway use an outboard step-up for mc cartridges.

I have both the Manley Chinook and the EAR 834P. FWIW, here are my impressions.
Both are excellent overall. I prefer the Chinook with MM cartridges, and the EAR with low output cartridges. Maybe it’s because the EAR has step ups for mc.  With the Chinook I alway use an outboard step-up for mc cartridges.

By the way, I don't think Chinook is over the top for your setup.  The Primaluna and the Chinook are a fantastic match, and will support what you have as well as many future upgrades.  IMO, with these two components, you have a long term system.  Tweak tubes or cables, change speakers or turntable, but keep these two components.  They are a good team!

I have a Primaluna HP Integrated and Revel F208s.  I did a big evaluation of phono stages a year ago (over a period of a year), and ended up with the Chinook.  I had the PhonoBox DS in the house for evaluation, and this is my first-hand experience.

I started years ago with the Jolida JD9, had it for several years, and modded several times.  Then went on the upgrade path.  Listened to these:  Chinook, Project PhonoBox RS, Musical Fidelity Nova II battery, TubeBox DS, plus a few others.  I had the MF for 6 months, and then brought back the DS, RS, and later the Chinook to compare.  I really liked the DS.  It had a nice balanced FR, and easy to listen to, but by comparison (especially to the RS) it was a bit noisy.  Better than the Jolida, but still had tube rush in the background.  The RS was far quieter, and the loading options are fantastic.  Next to the MF, the RS was easier to use,  much more musical and easier to listen to... but somehow it was a bit clinical and dry.  So after all was said and done, we ended up with the Musical Fidelity.  But 6 months in, I wasn't happy with it.

Then comes the Chinook.  It was no comparison.  Yes, double the cost, but wow, the improvement.  Even my GF who thinks I'm crazy completely agreed.  It has a more natural sound, never fatiguing, plenty of detail, fantastic separation of the instruments, great soundstage.  Love it.  When I put NOS tubes into it, it was just the perfect icing on top of an excellent cake.  I have the NOS tubes that now come in the Upscale Audio SE version.

One day, a local guy contacted me and asked me to bring the Chinook over for a comparo.  He had the Allnic, Herron, Sutherland 20/20 in house, and we listened to them compared to the Chinook on a VERY fine system... $25k TT, for example.  My evaluation (blinded as best we could) I liked the Chinook most, then Herron, Allnic and Sutherland.  The Herron was a bit more forward in his setup than the Chinook.  All sounded excellent.  But, I liked the tone and balance of the Chinook best.  Of the 7 or so who voted, Chinook was the winner, but only by one vote.  Herron was second.  

Now, to answer your question, we could probably agree (or not) that Herron could be better in some systems, and Chinook in others.  But, the Herron costs double.  So, for me, moving up from $800 Jolida to $2500 (retail) Chinook, I don't see a reason to go up to almost $4k for the minimal difference in sound quality.  For another $1500, I'd expect to be blown away, and I wasn't.

The difference from the $1k MF or Project RS, or even the $800 TubeBox DS... the step up in sound quality was definitely worth it.  After evaluating and comparing phono stages for a year or more, we've settled on the Chinook and have had it over a year.  

Long answer, but yes I did this same upgrade as you are considering, and yes, it was worth it.

papafrgog, I’ve been using an Aesthetix Rhea for over a decade and I bought it used.

I initially struggled with tube rush and I guess that’s why the original owner unloaded it.

I’d tried all sorts of 12AX7s to tame the tube rush, but to no avail.

In the meantime, I tried several other phono stages, including ARC PH7, Pass Labs XP-15, BAT VK-P10SE with Super Pak, plus a few others I don’t recall.

Although all of the above phono stages are very reputable and were very quite in comparison, but none had the magic I was looking for in my system. So I was stuck with the Rhea.

Not to give up easily, I contacted Aesthetix and asked to sell me a set of selected tubes for the V1 and V2 positions (in your case, it’d be V1 and V2 for phono). These Sovtek tubes were very quiet in comparison to all previous tubes that I’d tried, although the tube rush was still audible with my ears a few feet from the speakers, but I could live with that.

However, the Sovtek tubes were somewhat lacking in terms of body and dynamic (the magic I was after). After reading so much about the Gold Lion B759, I took a plunge and replaced the Sovteks in V1 and V2.

Now the body and dynamic are restored, although at the expense of very slightly increased tube rush.

I went even further as to replace every 12AX7 with Gold Lion B759.
Tube rush is slightly audible at listening position (~12 feet away from the speaker plane) at quiet nights with the needle lifted, which is much better than before.

I am pretty content now.

YMMV and happy listening!
P.S. My best buddy has a regular Janus and he replaced all 12AX7s with Gold Lion B759s. He is happy.

Keep the post coming, I'm getting lots of useful info.  Thinking about an upgrade myself.  Running a Jolida JD9, vpi classic 2 and ortofon quintet black.  Looking the parasound jc3+ or the jr.  Going to research the puffin.  Thanks for all the post so far.  Good luck on you journey.

This is a great thread because I have been wrestling with a phono stage upgrade. I have an Aesthetix Janus Eclipse, with has the Rhea phono built in. The tube rush makes me crazy so I’ve considered going SS to take that out of the equation. It’s interesting that other Rhea owners experience the same issue. Misery loves company. I’ve been sort of locked-in on Herron or Sutherland. The comments are really helping me. Great post. Good luck. 

Well I'll put my experience out there. .I have a cary sli80 and upgraded my turntable to a vpi clasic 3 witch I really enjoy. .tried some expensive tube phono stages like rogers pa1a and don't think it's worth the asking price.I'm currently using a rega aria and getting the results I was looking for. .with that said the jc3 from parasound is really nice and there are some good prices on used ones as well..best of luck. 

Well I'll put my experience out there. .I have a cary sli80 and upgraded my turntable to a vpi clasic 3 witch I really enjoy. .tried some expensive tube phono stages like rogers pa1a and don't think it's worth the asking price.I'm currently using a rega aria and getting the results I was looking for. .with that said the jc3 from parasound is really nice and there are some good prices on used ones as well..best of luck. 

I managed to find a Herron VTPH 1, here on Agon, and after hearing so much about it, I picked it up.  It blew away my Fosgate and took its place.  I wrote Keith and asked about trading in the VTPH 1 (mm only) for the 2a; he offered me a credit that was exactly what I paid for the '1' so he built a 2a for me.  With my Rega RP10/Apheta2 connected, the music was glorious.  After about 2 months I notice a static like noise on the right channel.  I contacted Keith after doing as much troubleshooting as possible to isolate it the 2a.  He asked me to send it back, which I did.  He could not hear the same noise after listening for a week.  And this next part is why I will never have another phono stage except a Keith Herron designed one.  Keith, without being able to duplicate the noise, decided to build me another 2a rather than return my original.  Yes, that is correct, Keith Herron built another 2a for me and kept my original.  Further investigation, on my end, found the static noise was caused by an external source (computer power supply).  I have been in audio for 55  years and I have never had any manufacturer treat me so well as Keith Herron.  He not only makes the best phono stage, but he is also one of the true gentlemen in this business and that means quite a lot nowadays.

I was using the tube box ds as well and my problem was low output ,rega rp 8 ,alphea mc cart .i purchased a used Mac mc100 and wow that solved my problem! Mac 601 mono’s, focal 1038 be.

I agree with Stevecham's assessment of the Rhea, concerning low level tube rush. But, after 12 years I upgraded my unit to the signature version. Oh, what a difference. Overall a great improvement and a much lower noise floor. The virtues of the Rhea, flexibility and the ability to adjust load and gain from your listening position, became more evident, as I upgraded other sources in my system. Simply musical in either configuration...

@12hz,   Yes you have great options to be excited about.  I really cannot comment on stuff I haven't heard and all of it you are getting recs for is solid by reputation.  

All I can say is my Chinook is superlative.  I adore it.  It sits quietly in the rack doing more work, so to speak, than any other element of my system. Great speakers? Check. Great amps? Check.  The Chinook makes them all shine.  The sound is big and fat, fat, fat, fat.  It's sooo smooth.  

I grew up listening to vinyl through my folks.  They are older now and heard it.  They were floored at how clear it is. The gain is stellar.  You cannot go wrong. 

I often think about upgrading stuff.  I'd be spending $6-$10k on speakers and still not swapping out the Chinook.  You sort of know what you know after doing this awhile.  I know the Chinook might be my strongest link.    

I run MC now, but the Chinook was vintagely (not a word) captivating with the Ortofon 2M Black.  I think the Chinook is out of its league but, still, it was intoxicating. 

I'd love to hear a Herron though.  Can't lie. 

I started with a Pro-Ject Tube box and was pleasantly surprised at the improvement. Then I replaced that with Simaudio's Moon 310LP and 320S combo. Wow, that was a difference! The staging is incredible and the sound very well rounded. 

Rogue Ares is no slouch, check it out. 

Allnic H-1201 might be better than Manley, ideally you would want to compare before choosing. Used H-1201 should be $1500 or less. It comes with NOS Mullard tubes and you can get replacement from the factory. Not that some other NOS tubes cannot sound better.

Thanks, @jbhiller. This is the sort of testimonial I was hoping to hear. I really would like to look into the Herron as well, with so much positive feedback about it, but it's over 1K more than the Manley, so I can't really consider it for that reason. The Manley will be expensive for me, as well. (I may be pulling the trigger soon.)