How much difference does a phono preamp really make?

The right question should be about carts ouput. Not so much relevenant for MM kinds but well for MC kinds. By those
there are: low output , mid output and high output kinds.
In order to reduce the moving mass the real possibility
is to reduce windings of coil wire. Cantilevers and styli are
in general pretty light. Not much to ''reduce'' this way.
The low output kinds are phono-pre  sensitive. Either
 (expensive) phono- pres ( + 69 dB) or SUT's. There is
 no 3th posibility. 

Yes AT VM 760SLC will make a big difference because of the profile but also because it's good match for your tonearm.

I had a Denon 110 on an SL1200 and it was a good jump up going to even to an AT7V. I now have a 1200G with AT VM750...another jump up in resolution.

With that cartridge, you will hear a difference with a better ($1000+) phono stage. 

audionoobie

phono stages make a huge difference... absolutely huge

if you can't hear a difference it is likely because you don't have a good, resolving system set up properly yet (90%), or, that unluckily, you have happened upon two phono stages that sound very much alike (10% chance)...

serious analog folks view the phono stage choice as one of the most important in terms of system building

good luck on your quest

A phono stage can make a significant difference in my experience!

An amazing MM cartridge can be found for $700-1000, this is the price for a basic phono stage, better phono stage normally cost $1500-2500 and what it can make for an average cartridge is to show all the flaws of such cart.

JLTi mk5 from Australia is great new phono stage for reasonable price. Highly competitive with higher priced Gold Note PH-10. I have both.

IMO the phono stage is more important then the table or the cartridge. We did an experiment a few years back using a reference phono stage and a MM basic cartridge and a JC Penny TT (I believe CEC made it for JC Penny). We were all floored by the SQ yeah some noise but it was so beautiful we all laughed when we found out the TT was labeled JC Penny. I still pull it out on occasion just to prove it to people. That was using a reference quality phono stage. Never tried it with any other one.

We also just modified a Manley Steelhead preamp/phono and the new parts we installed also made a big improvement using the same mid-level TT. So the phono to us was a much bigger improvement then the TT would have been.

Our experiences, others may feel differently.

Happy Listening.

OP, as others have said the phono preamp makes or can make a material difference. It changed the game for me. If I didn’t jump to a good stage (Manley Chinook) I would’ve thought digital had eclipsed vinyl for good. That is not so. They are different but vinyl can be seductively mesmerizing.  

The phono pre makes all the difference in the world....
Regarding the limititations to the cartridge and arms strengnths and inherently their weakness’s..
As well as its own strengths and limitations in regard to the previous’s real capailities....
Think of them as one importance in how they are relevant to each other....not how one is more relevant than the other.
The thing about the phono pre it can limit the strengths of the other two, but a good phono pre will show all their capabilities and flaws...
You don’t want the phono section to be the bottleneck if you have a good cart n arm . Conversly, if your planning a better arm or cart or both.....how will you know what they can do if the pre isn’t up to it..... this all hinges on the idea you know how and do have arm n cart properly set up.....

1st, a new cartridge,

I like Audio Technica, however I would go with the same body with the Shibata stylus and save $250.

https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/cartridges/type/moving-magnet/vm750sh

both have very strong stereo separation, 30db and tight channel balance 1 db.

I am using my ancient but still near virgin AT440ML upstairs, and got my first MC, AT33PTGII, very similar specs, main system, I love it.

Any advanced stylus shape requires very careful alignment to sound great and to avoid damage, how are your mounting/alignment skills?

@ audionoobie OP

I didn’t say that the cart is the most important component.

My apologies for the confusion. I know you did not say that. But others have. The lack of logic in the idea that the cartridge is most important is what I was trying to expose. Nothing wrong with your TT & arm. Yes everything matters also. But unless you have very deep pockets you have to prioritize what upgrades are necessary sound better. I seriously doubt a better cart is going to be a big upgrade. It may be some better. But you are still going to be wondering about that phono preamp.

The most important component by far is the modem. Without that I am unable to connect to pay the utility bill, without which there is no power, and no system, and the power cannot even be turned back on. So it is definitely the modem. Or any other darn thing I can think of to make the point that there is no one most important anything. 

What you do noob, is if you have something that is known to be negatively affecting the sound, or is super easy or inexpensive to upgrade, then that is what you do. Because everything matters, and sorry to offend the others who got it wrong but everything matters pretty much about the same.  

Mostly what you want to learn is not so much which things make the biggest difference, because they all do. So forget about that. What you want to learn is which things can you do that will give the biggest benefit over the time you will have them.  

So for example a really sweet cart will be a huge upgrade. But depending on how many records you play it may last only a few to maybe a handful of years, at which point your wonderful cart is just about worthless. While a turntable or arm, good ones will make about the same initial improvement but last for years and years. Mine are over 16 years now. I have gone through three carts in that time. If I had bought the Koetsu way back then it would indeed have been a wonderful improvement. No doubt about it. It would also have kept me from being able to buy the table I got instead, which is now with me and running fine all these years later.  

So to really get the most from your audiophile dollar calls for planning the likes of which few here can truly advise you on. Once you have the plan, then we can. But by then you won't need much in the way of help. So relax. There is no right. Or wrong. And you will never be done- until you are ready to be done.... for now.  

@artemus_5  I didn't say that the cart is the most important component. What I will say is the 1210GR is the most expensive TT I feel comfortable buying. Now it becomes a matter of optimizing and getting the best possible sound quality with what I have.

From what I understand the arm on the 1210 is pretty good. Good TT, good arm, just ok carts, and a just ok phono pre. Makes sense to me that I would get the biggest bang for buck upgrading the cart. 

But I'm still taking this all in and trying to learn.

Cheers,
Joe

IF The cartridge is the most important, then why buy a good TT & tonearm first ? Well, there is a reason why. IT AIN"T SO. IF the cart was the most important, people would build their vinyl rig around it. BUT THEY DON"T.

So, OP If you buy the hogwash of the cart being the most important, then you should sell your TT & stand alone phono preamp and buy a cheap TT and a very nice cartridge with those funds.

@mijostyn Awesome!! Thanks!!

Thanks again for all the wonderful replies. I am taking in all this great information.

@chakster "Better phono stage will not make your average cartridges any better. You have to start with a cartridge."

This sounds like excellent advice and I will definitely heed it. Thanks!

audionoobie, to answer your question the AT VM760SLC will make a large improvement. It is a much better tracker than your current cartridges should have better bass and be more dynamic. It is a great value!

Cartridge and its stylus profile, cantilever, coil wire, overall design is the most important in analog chain, even with very cheap preamp the difference is huge and everyone can hear it immediately (I played records with different cartridges for my non audiophile friends, everyone can hear the difference)!

In your situation it can be a difference between average cartridge and great cartridge, when you are comparing average cartridges they are all the same (aka nothing special).

I have many different cartridges (MC, MM, MI) and 4 different phono stages including Gold Note PH-10 (mentioned by you). Discovering a new cartridge is a pleasure, I do not change phono stages that often (it would be crazy) !

Better phono stage will not make your average cartridges any better. You have to start with a cartridge.

And BTW you can’t even change the stylus on your cartridges by yourself when they are worn, so you’d better think about better cartridges. Once yours are worn after 500-700 hrs, you’re done with them. Your new phono stage can’t help you with worn stylus. Sell your cartridges (before it’s too late) and buy much better cartridge.

My advice is to start your upgrade path with a cartridge (MM or MI with user replaceable stylus with advanced profile and better cantilever than aluminum), you will upgrade your phono stage later anyway.

When I bought my first serious MM cartridges for Technics turntable my phono stage was $500 Grado PH-1 and my average cartridge was Grado. My better cartridge was Technics EPC-205c mk4 and the difference between Grado MI and Technics MM was HUGE on my old Grado PH-1 phono stage, then I upgraded load resistors to Vishay Naked Foil (100k Ohm) and it was another upgrade! Later over the years I bought more turntables, cartridges and more phono stages (headamps, SUTs etc).

@williewonka

+1

yep, my experience has been wading around the shallow end is pretty much the same. But once you get into the deep (high) end, the difference is profound.

@audionoobie - I had budget phono stages for many years and the improvement from one to another was marginal - even when I tweaked power supplies - the improvements were incremental.

I then decided to invest in the analogue side of my system and purchased an LFD phono stage, but it was not a good match to my system or to my cartridge.

Fortunately I was able to switch at no cost to a Simaudio Moon LP5.3 RS and boy - what an improvement.

So much so that when I had my Denon 103 re-tipped by Soundsmith the improvements were immediately apparent.

Since then I have upgraded power cables and interconnects several times and the MOON has kept pace with all those changes by conveying far more details than I thought were possible.

So

• your choice of phono stage choice is critical
• matching the phono stage to your system is recommended
• matching the phono too your cartridge is is recommended
• and matching your cables to your components is recommended
• i.e. if you want to get the very best out of your analogue components.

BUT - I consider the most important cable, is from the cartridge to the phono stage - I switched to a one piece harness many years ago - i.e. basically 4 single wires from the cartridge to the phono stage - within no RCA’s or joins.in the wires

Cardas makes a very nice one piece harness.

Once you get the cables sorted, the difference between phono stages should be more noticeable

Just another opinion - Steve

For me, there was a rather massive improvement in going from a Schiit Mani to a Rega Aria Mk3.  

I have experienced many phono stages, and in general they are extremely important in the system as a whole. They are far up the signal path and dealing with a minuet signal, they must be very quiet and high quality to do it well. However, also the basic rule of thumb applies to Phonostage… “you need to double the cost of a component to get a solid very noticeable improvement” (its just a rule of thumb… but typically after you get into components over a couple grand it works pretty well).

@ audionoobie OP

I can hear a difference between the two carts. Not so much with the two phono pre's
It seems like my carts may not be good enough for me to notice a difference between my entry phono stages.

OK, that changes the answer for me. Both preamps are about equal sonically so you won't hear a difference in them. But the carts are doing their job. You can hear a difference.  Though your carts are not really high end, they will respond much better with a better phono preamp. Remember the hierarchy I posted. The cartridge was the least important. 
Atmasphere noted as much telling how a lesser cartridge sounded great on a better arm & TT. The phono pre will also give better and is where I'd spend my $$$ now. 

It can make a huge difference.

First fundamental step is make sure phono input specs match cart output specs ie the two are compatible. Then you are baselined optimally to assess any other differences from device to device, if it still matters enough to you.

Of course its a system so everything else downstream from pre-amp to speakers to setup in the room matters as well. The trick is to figure out the weak link and focus on that as needed. Don’t get too hung up in one place.

If that sounds hard, then consider one the many integrated solutions available today and there are many very good ones capable of competing with many high quality separates. The engineers ie the technical experts have integrated the things that matter for you there. That can help take a lot of the guessing out of the game. You still need to pick a cartridge that is compatible and in many but not all cases speakers as well.

@artemus_5  I can hear a difference between the two carts. Not so much with the two phono pre's

@earlflynn  I'm very sorry to hear about your stepson. Thank for your input. 

@dekay  I did. The Denon sounded better on the MC setting although I believe the manufacturer recommends using MM. 

Thank you to everyone else so far. It seems like my carts may not be good enough for me to notice a difference between my entry phono stages. 

I posted a question to the Technics SL1200 group on Facebook about recommended cartridges. Most seemed to point to the ATVM760 SLC. Would this be a significant upgrade to my Denon and Clearaudio?

Thanks!! 

It can make a huge difference.

I was skeptical as were my sons. Read an article in Stereophile by Fremmer and he was exuding using a MM phone pre dedicated to MM. so I bought one he recommended. My stepson could here the difference immediately. He spent his days listening to music as he was disabled after he hit by an intoxicated motorist. He came to live his mother and I.

I miss him…

Did you try both settings (MM/MC) on the PM6 with the Denon?


If so did one sound better then the other?

DeKay

As everyone else has said, the Phono Pre is as important as the Turntable itself because of the delicate signal it has to amplify. The hierarchy of the vinyl chain is Turntable, arm and cartridge in that order. With that said, I'm a little surprised that you can hear no differences  between the 2 carts. There should be some subtle changes. 

Only your hairdresser knows for sure.
It is quite critical but your system, room or ears might not be up to the task. There IS only one way to find out, try it.

Not only are those 2 very basic phono stages, probably with the same kind of chip based circuitry, but a 40dB MM stage (like the Consonance, and probably your Aria built-in) is going to be way underpowered for your Denon’s 1.6mV (this results in 0.16 V when a typical CD player outputs 2.0 V, a full 22 dB above the former), whereas a 60dB MC stage is going a bit too much for it (risking overload).

And though it’s an entry-level MC, which won’t garner too many fans here on audiogon for its plastic body alone, you are probably far from hearing that Denon 110 at optimal. The 110 is kind of an odd-man out for most phono stages, which typically cater either to higher output MMs or lower output MCs, and (importantly) often don’t offer 47K loading (recommended for your Denon) in MC mode. What you want, optimally, is low 50s dB gain at 47K.

Get a Hagerman Trumpet MC ($1100) and you will hear a difference! It can do 45, 55, 60, 64, or 68 dB. All loading settings available at all gains, including 47K.

If your cartridge and the rest of your system aren't revealing enough, there's not going to be much if any difference... on the other hand, if they are, the phono stage matters a lot.  It's amplifying a very small signal and how well it does that without introducing noise or distortion make a big difference.

It does, but before you will buy more expensive phono stage you’d better upgrade your cartridges (especially Denon). The most significant difference is a cartridge matched to GR tonearm and your phono stages. 

years ago, used wonder about same Q. 

Short answer is pretty significant upgrade can be made with better phono stage.