I meant "your" and not "you're". |
I can't believe Sebrof was the first to mention toe in.
Badly written speaker manuals for the last 30 years or so have often referenced the "hole in the middle" of the stereo image when speakers get pushed too far apart.
Greater degrees of toe in will increase the distance where this first occurs, but may also change the tonal balance of the speaker.
I have also found that there is not necessarily a point of apples to apples equilibrium with greater toe in and greater distance vs lesser toe in and lesser distance.
Although there may be a relationship with respect to where the hole in the middle begins, the two different set ups can create a completely different sound and image.
Planars behave differently from other speakers, but after years of experimenting with different models, I found that setting up Magnepans with no toe in often created the widest and most expansive image, while also softening the treble a bit.
In summary, there is no simple formula or easy answer to this question and every inch counts, although is it usually a safe bet that farther out from both rear and side walls is a good thing.
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I think Johnk just said it all. There are plenty of formula's, get one to work |
Not all loudspeakers are designed for facing forwards most are designed with toe in in mind. The reason is the frequency response on and off axis. There is no rule that could ever tell me where to place a loudspeaker or how far apart. To many variables. So best to set them up to sound best to the owner weather placements right or wrong is subjective and even ones height or chair height, room decor, seating distance ,room and speaker size, speakers radiation pasterns etc. all can effect placement. No one way for all loudspeakers and the formulas to me are all far to over simplified and biased to have any real use. |
As far as they need to be. |
I find that a listening distance of 1.5 times the spacing between speakers works best.
If you listen at 6 feet then speakers spaced 4 feet, at 9 feet spaced 6 feet apart, and at 12 feet spaced 8 feet.
I find the often recommended equilateral triangle with toe in does not sound as realistic.
I prefer speakers facing forwards and square to the room - no toe in or toe out.
I do not respect speakers that change their sound character with angle.
I will only use speakers with even dispersion across the main frequency range. |
I did the plane of the speaker to the ear, but I believe the 83% mentioned in this thread was from ear to speaker.
The way I did it worked well for me. I have my rack on the side wall, so moving speakers farther apart would have meant closer to the gear. |
Is it that the distance between the speakers is 83% of the distance from the speaker to ear or plane of the speakers in front of you to ear? There is a difference. |
Here's my formula, try it if you get curious or bored:
Speakers 1/3 into the room
Chair against the back wall (make sure the wall behind you is not hard/bare)
Speakers spread 83% of the distance from your ear to the plane of the speakers directly in front of you
Toe in to taste, I suppose this will have a lot to do with speaker design
My room is 13' front to back, 12' side to side.
My speakers are a little over 4' into the room and are about 68" apart center of driver to center of driver.
I went to a shop in another city a while ago and the owner suggested the 1/3 into the room and chair against the back wall. It went against what I believed, but I got curious and bored at the same time so I tried it.
I got the 83% thing from this thread and it actually worked pretty darn well.
It may be that my room is small, a cube, or whatever but this is where I have my speakers. |
Obviate: To anticipate and dispose of effectively; render unnecessary.
Now that we've cleared THAT up...Pettyfeveresk: I am concerned that your spouse is named "my dog Hanna"
My listening room has furniture, book cases, paintings, a glass wall, moose head (not really), a high sloping ceiling, and no formulaic solution. So I merely listen...combfilteringstandingwaves be damned! Also..."off axis" is extremely taste and speaker design driven and again, no formula, especially if you're face is over 6 feet away from the tweeter, and rooms generally do NOT have a specific "frequency curve" except what can maybe be measured in one spot, and that has zero to do with music (soundstage specifically) unless you listen with your face stuck to the window or you hang from the ceiling fan and measured those places. I've used a few vastly different speakers in that room...all requiring COMPLETELY different positioning to get to a sweet spot. |
After reading all of the responses, I wanted to share my experience. I have a room that is 12 feet by 23 feet and i have the speakers on the short side of the room.The speakers come out 56 inches from the wall behind them and I have about 8 feet behind my listening chair. Because I only have 12 feet, I found that when I had the speakers spread to far apart, the sound suffered in terms of the most natural bass sound. I ended up settling for the speakers to be just over 6.5 feet apart with very little toe in. As I said, when i went any closer to the side walls, I did not like the sound of the bass. I sit 9.75 feet away from the speakers. This works well in my room. Every room is a bit different and you have to play around to get the best listening spot. Most rooms have issues but if you let your ears tell you what sounds right, you can usually get a good listening situation. You have to experiment and most of us have rooms that are less than perfect. Room treatments can help. Another factor is whether your spouse or you is comfortable having speakers come out in the room. As I stated mine come out 56 into the room, my dog Hanna does not object but not every spouse feels that way and there may have to be compromises. |
Hi Wolf, To answer the question:
"Doesn't the nearly infinite disparity between various speaker's responses in rooms, including tweeter off and on axis dispersion and woofer loading sort of obviate set-up formulae?"
I don't thinks so. At least as far as how your speaker loads or couples to your room. The idea is to be far enough from walls to avoid reflection and be close enough for proper bass reinforcement. Then to be in the right seating position to get the most from your soundstage.
I don't think that Whether you are 83%, 95% or triangle is any more important than understanding standing wave, reflections and reinforcement, this is where some type of formula could come into play. On or off axis listening is a factor of what your final frequency curve is in the room. As, I'm sure that you know, as you take your speakers off axis, you change the top end response heading down to your mid range. If your room caused some sort of peak, much of this could be alieviated when you go off axis, or if you have a very flat response, most of us would like to listen on axis.
Either way, the boundries, could be summed up mathmatically. |
Doesn't the nearly infinite disparity between various speaker's responses in rooms, including tweeter off and on axis dispersion and woofer loading sort of obviate set-up formulae? And...has anybody CHANGED the speaker position months after thinking one has dialed it in due to some personal tonal preference change of heart? And is "formulae" really a word? As an aside...yesterday I draped a blanket (tastefully of course) over the back of the leather couch I listen from (providing some high freq. absorption on either side of my head), and it dramatically cleaned things up. |
Depends on room and how far away you sit. |
I started with finding the best seating position in my room. I did this by ear, listening for the best balance for a smooth and articulate bass response. Then I placed my speakers front to back for staging/depth while maintaining good bass balance , then distance from the sidewalls, listening to female vocals in mono for solidity and focus of the central image, and finally toe-in for a final check on tonal balance and detail. They ended up about 85% apart relative to my ear-to-tweeter distance and toed in to meat at a point about 4-5 feet behind my ears.
When this was complete, I then checked speaker height/rake angle and toe-in angle with a laser pointer aimed at marks on the back wall. Finally, I checked the distances from the tweeters to side walls and tweeters to a center point on the back with the laser measuring device. Everything is to the nearest 1/16th of an inch. Sounds pretty anal, but this last step with the laser pointer snapped imaging and focus in place and the speakers disappeared to a much better extent than before.
This procedure is basically described in Jim Smith's book, "Get Better Sound." I had tried various test tracks, listening tones, etc, but always became frustrated with a lack of progress. I did the set up listening to real music and following Jim's advice. I found it worked best for me. |
For those with the non symmetrical shaped rooms or just as an experiment you might want to try using the Master Set speaker placement. There's a review of it here on Agon
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin frr.pl?rspkr&1197744079&read&3&4&
Or just search the web there's plenty of information on it.
My set up is in a alcove that's 13.5' wide X 5' deep but opens up to a room 28.5" wide. The right side is 20' from the listening position with the left side opening to a stair case that ascends to the upper level. I tried the Cardas method several time and could never figure out the math for it.
After reading about the Master Set I gave it a shot one rainy weekend and after two days of working with it by myself was surprised with how well it works. And trust me you will get tired of the song you use, haven't listened to "The Balled of a Runaway Horse" in months.
I'm not saying it will work for you but its just a option.
Good Luck |
The reason I say that most speakers are too far apart is because many speakers sound better close together, relatively speaking. 4 feet is suggested as a starting point simply because some speakers will sound best at this distance, even though 4 feet might seem ridiculous.
The speaker set up track on the XLO Test CD should be used to establish the precise speaker locations rather than employing the relatively unreliable "move a little, listen a little" technique. |
Speakers 4 feet apart sounds funny and evokes pornographic imagery. |
Hi Geoffkait,
Why do you say "Most speakers are too far apart"... it is all based on your room size, and listening position. Where does 4 feet apart come from? Just curious |
Most speakers are set too far apart. Try moving them closer together, say 4 feet apart, as a starting point. |
You have a low threshold of refreshment. |
this thread is so refreshing. I actually learned a lot. |
So...I AM a bad person! Damn...I forgot to mention that the speakers sound great without pulling 'em out into the room. I just do it to remind myself of how wise and attentive I am, and that I can be as geeky as the next freak. |
Hi Wolf,
I used to do just that. I don't have a dedicated listening room and moved them back and forth. I finally made everyone go to the family room for tv/home theater and made my formal living room a listening room. I now just leave them out. No more tape on the carpet. They stay and so far for about 10 months now my wife has let me get away with it. |
Since my speakers are light-ish skinny towers (Silverline Preludes), I move 'em out away from the back walls into a closer sweet spot when I feel like it, leaving my beloved old REL sub alone. I have the spot marked for returning them to "sweet spot #1". Does anybody else do this? Am I a bad person? Should I stop calling myself an audiophile? |
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My speakers are 12 feet apart. Because of aesthetics, 12 feet apart could not be changed. So, I just adjusted the seating distance until I found the right spot.
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Great tread , lot's of good advice for a change .
After much trial and area we ended up with the listening position just back of the triangle , that would likely put the speakers at about 83% apart . |
I find this en interesting thread. I will try out this 83% "rule" and see how it works for me. Also I have taken a look at the Cardas way of speaker placement. I do think it is a good way to place you speakers however in a normal living room it is hard to implement. I have also found out if I move my speakers to far from the back wall the sound will deteriorate. Maybe that has something to do that my speakers can and need a little bass boost I think. Also my speakers are bass reflex speakers with the port in the front.
Using the 83% "rule" my speakers would be about 249cm apart form tweeter to tweeter. That would me they are about 80cm from the side wall. The Cardas setup would place my speakers about 113cm from the side wall.
Anyway I'll play around with speaker placement. |
Sebrof...I agree, but feel you may have missed my point. As long as the imageing and response of speakers meet my personal (and somewhat critical) tastes, I'm fine with some room sound. Many "audiogoners" might tweek the bejesus out of a room to obtain optimum response, but after many (over 40) years as a musician and sound tech I've come to prefer less padding and more ambience, and a specific personal living space esthetic. If the speakers sound less than ideal in some area, and it bothers my critical ear, I move 'em around. I had a neighbor who was a well regarded gear reviewer (Lars...he died a few years ago) who had a severely tweeked listening room...and he LOVED the sound of my non-tweeked room...go figure. |
Wolf - Speakers will play music and can be enjoyed no matter how you set them up. If you pay attention to the details, they play much better. |
Thanks, Hornguys, for the explanation. I guess my speakers are harmonically convergent at my current 95% position. |
If you move speakers away from walls, dampen surfaces, use tube traps or something in corners for standing wave issues, and have silent heating and/or cooling and no furniture, you can't live in my house. Period. I think the sound of a room can add life and character to systems, and other than things rattling from a sub (I hate that), I think people get too crazy about this stuff. All speakers image differently and the 83% thing seems just silly, unless you're utterly clueless about listening or you review speakers for a living. Good gear can be enjoyed AND fit in a living space without sacrificing esthetics or removing the fireplace with a jackhammer. Put the speakers in front of you and toe 'em or not until they seem to sound good on most stuff, get a beer, relax, and enjoy. This method works 100% of the time. |
If you know what your speakers 30 Degree & 60 Degree off axis response curves look like, you will have a good idea if tow in is good for your speaker. Many, Many speakers have a high end rise on axis and at 30 degrees of axis are very smooth, these speakers typically will image on or off axis, but are much more musical when facing forward (off axis). Some speakers are capable of smooth on or off axis response and sound good either way. A speaker faced directly toward you (towed in) would not sound smooth and natural if had any frequency dips or peaks. There are other factors, but this is a major factor of tonal balance and imaging when listening on axis of off axis. |
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The 83% isn't a rule.
It's simply an observation made after having done hundreds of successful installations around North America and at shows.
If x is the distance from your ear to the tweeter plane (our source of directionality), then y (in this case 83%) is the distance from the center of one tweeter to the other.
When speakers are too far apart, they can begin to sound too thin (although they image great). But do great-imaging-but-slightly-thin sounding systems involve you in the music - as opposed to the the sound?
Too close together, and the imaging suffers excessively.
The last system I voiced ended up at 88%. The distance is ALWAYS arrived at by listening, and sometimes we measure just to see how it turned out. But I've never been personally engaged by music that's harmonically threadbare, as opposed to rich.
Toe-in also effects that separation number, IMO, as well the dispersion of the loudspeaker, not to mention first reflection issues.
I often suggest a starting point somewhere between 80-85 (and up to 90) percent. But always, only after finding the best listening seat location ("best" meaning smoothest bass).
An equilateral triangle (y = 100%) or greater can yield uncanny imaging. But, IMO, a boring musical experience.
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Hard surfaces reflect, corners or any angles amplify. The cardas measurements are really there with these things in mind. If you are 30 to 40 inches from any wall you are normally ok, less than that and you have a risk of bass being boosted or if firing forward, reflections. With a tow, this reflections are normally not a problem.
Corners on subs are normally not a problem if crossed very low... 40 or 50hz, you can normally tweek things with phase, volume and frequency controls, when you get near 60, this is an natural room amplifying frequency and above that is much harder to deal with.
I hope all of this helps, Tim |
Same / similar situation to Dave.
9 sided, completely asymmetric listening space. My panels are on 1 of the short walls, spaced 30->35" from the 'front' wall and about 6.5' apart, inside edge to inside edge. RH speaker has no wall near the side while the LH speaker loads into a corner....about 3' away. The sub is located near this corner, too. The ceiling is 'vaulted and about 11' high at the peak. 2 walls are at 45 degrees. The short wall opposite the speakers....maybe 24' away has a small tapestry hanging on it to diffuse and eliminate a slap-back echo I had when doing the initial installation about 24 years ago. OUCH!
A real mess, and no 'method' I can think of but trial and error works.
But accommodations have been made. I listen to the 'wrong' side of my panels and with the tweeters 'in' everything has gell'd. Bass is pretty uniform and the only problem is in the computer room....which is real boomy. |
My room is too irregular in shape for any geometric speaker placement method to work, though the irregularity may also work to break up modes. |
Daverz,
As I stated above, I hadn't heard of it either, I have done many set ups recently and did the math after reading this thread. You will also read that I went back to the Cardas Method. I really recommend that you start there. Many have talked about the triangle, but there are several room measurements that help your speakers placed correctly realative to room boundries. I figured every one of them before placement, my finished results are very good. This doesn't work for everyone, but it has a very high success ratio. I have attached the web page below.
Good luck, Tim
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring |
The 83% rule doesn't seem workable in my room. Is there any theory behind it? It seems a rather arbitrary number.
I have no symmetry in my room, so I try to keep both speakers and my listening position at least 4 feet from any boundaries, since I can't even up any early reflections by symmetrical placement.
I sit about 10-15 cm further from my speakers than they are apart (about 2.56 m). I find I prefer my Vandie Quatros to be at least 8 feet apart for soundstage width. I like to be close enough for an immersive soundstage, but not so close that it becomes "heady". |
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Hi Mofimadness,
Ear height, center of panel. |
I have used the Cardas method as a starting point and incorporated some of Jim Smiths ideas. Under the Cardas method I felt I was a little too close to the speakers so I moved my listening position back to about 9 feet and increased the width between the speakers to be in line with the 83% to 84% guideline. I also have maintained a good distance from the rear wall. I think 2 feet is way to close and there will be some uneven bass build up at certain frequencies. I am 5 1/2 feet from the rear wall with the speakers toed in to pass on the outside of my ears. |
Sitting close to the rear wall can help bass response at times. There is no getting around that the reflection from the rear wall arrives very close to the direct sound of the speakers. Absorption will reduce the amplitude of the reflection but arrival time is still the same. In my case, this decreased resolution significantly by compromising impulse response and comb filtering. Diffusors may spread out the reflection arrival time but sitting very close to diffusors can be problematic too. |
If you sit that close to the rear wall, I suggest you have some absorptive room treatment directly behind the listening position. |
Jim Smith arrives at the distance between speakers by measuring from the center of the tweeters. The distance to the listening position is from the tweeter to your ear. I'm sure there are situations where the 83% formula does not result in the best sound--every room and speaker are different--but I have found that this tends to work best when I've tried it not only on my own system but with friends as well. Another interesting "tip" in Jim's book is that you should sit fairly close to the rear wall--say between one and two feet. I did not sit anywhere near the rear wall in my old listening room but since moving and setting up in a different space I am now 16" from the wall behind me and am getting very good sound. |
Timlub,
How about flat panel speakers? |
Where you measure from depends on your speaker. On a 2 way it is normally on the top center of the woofer below the tweeter, on a 3 way it would be the center of the midrange. I have an MTM with a staggered tweeter.
Think about what it takes to time align your speakers and think of the center of that alignment. This will give you consistant results. |
I measure speaker distances from the center of the woofer. |
Hi guys, been out of town and just picked up on this thread. In the past 3 to 4 months, I have done extensive testing of my speaker placement. Inititally, I used the Cardas Golden triangle system. It worked well, I use an mtm and always use the inside edge of the tweeter as my measureing point. My speakers are 111 inches apart and 111 inches from tweeter to ear. Full tow pointed to the outside of my head or to the ear. I built my speakers, they are very flat with excellent time end very good phase alignment, so they don't mind the tow.
I use the same woofer as the totem forest so I tried the totem idea of facing forward. My center stage collapsed, I started slowly and continually moving the speakers inward and at around 7 ft apart, I Ended up with a very slight tow on the speakers and Staging was fully restored with just the slightest bit more laid back sound in the upper mid to upper end, a slight loss of detail, but still a nice sound stage.
Oddly enough I hadn't heard this 83% idea, but had moved the speakers out until the tweeters were 99 inches apart and 120 inches to my ear...(82.5%) here, I had the tightest center, very good depth and heigth, pinpoint imaging was not quite as good as the Cardas method, but overall a nice effect.
I went back to the Cardas |
I'm also curious about where the 83% measurement is being taken from. Is it the inside edge, outside edge or driver center? |
