Hi Geoffkait,
Why do you say "Most speakers are too far apart"... it is all based on your room size, and listening position. Where does 4 feet apart come from? Just curious |
Hi Wolf,
I used to do just that. I don't have a dedicated listening room and moved them back and forth. I finally made everyone go to the family room for tv/home theater and made my formal living room a listening room. I now just leave them out. No more tape on the carpet. They stay and so far for about 10 months now my wife has let me get away with it. |
Hi guys, been out of town and just picked up on this thread. In the past 3 to 4 months, I have done extensive testing of my speaker placement. Inititally, I used the Cardas Golden triangle system. It worked well, I use an mtm and always use the inside edge of the tweeter as my measureing point. My speakers are 111 inches apart and 111 inches from tweeter to ear. Full tow pointed to the outside of my head or to the ear. I built my speakers, they are very flat with excellent time end very good phase alignment, so they don't mind the tow.
I use the same woofer as the totem forest so I tried the totem idea of facing forward. My center stage collapsed, I started slowly and continually moving the speakers inward and at around 7 ft apart, I Ended up with a very slight tow on the speakers and Staging was fully restored with just the slightest bit more laid back sound in the upper mid to upper end, a slight loss of detail, but still a nice sound stage.
Oddly enough I hadn't heard this 83% idea, but had moved the speakers out until the tweeters were 99 inches apart and 120 inches to my ear...(82.5%) here, I had the tightest center, very good depth and heigth, pinpoint imaging was not quite as good as the Cardas method, but overall a nice effect.
I went back to the Cardas |
Where you measure from depends on your speaker. On a 2 way it is normally on the top center of the woofer below the tweeter, on a 3 way it would be the center of the midrange. I have an MTM with a staggered tweeter.
Think about what it takes to time align your speakers and think of the center of that alignment. This will give you consistant results. |
Hi Mofimadness,
Ear height, center of panel. |
Daverz,
As I stated above, I hadn't heard of it either, I have done many set ups recently and did the math after reading this thread. You will also read that I went back to the Cardas Method. I really recommend that you start there. Many have talked about the triangle, but there are several room measurements that help your speakers placed correctly realative to room boundries. I figured every one of them before placement, my finished results are very good. This doesn't work for everyone, but it has a very high success ratio. I have attached the web page below.
Good luck, Tim
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring |
Hard surfaces reflect, corners or any angles amplify. The cardas measurements are really there with these things in mind. If you are 30 to 40 inches from any wall you are normally ok, less than that and you have a risk of bass being boosted or if firing forward, reflections. With a tow, this reflections are normally not a problem.
Corners on subs are normally not a problem if crossed very low... 40 or 50hz, you can normally tweek things with phase, volume and frequency controls, when you get near 60, this is an natural room amplifying frequency and above that is much harder to deal with.
I hope all of this helps, Tim |
If you know what your speakers 30 Degree & 60 Degree off axis response curves look like, you will have a good idea if tow in is good for your speaker. Many, Many speakers have a high end rise on axis and at 30 degrees of axis are very smooth, these speakers typically will image on or off axis, but are much more musical when facing forward (off axis). Some speakers are capable of smooth on or off axis response and sound good either way. A speaker faced directly toward you (towed in) would not sound smooth and natural if had any frequency dips or peaks. There are other factors, but this is a major factor of tonal balance and imaging when listening on axis of off axis. |
Hi Wolf, To answer the question:
"Doesn't the nearly infinite disparity between various speaker's responses in rooms, including tweeter off and on axis dispersion and woofer loading sort of obviate set-up formulae?"
I don't thinks so. At least as far as how your speaker loads or couples to your room. The idea is to be far enough from walls to avoid reflection and be close enough for proper bass reinforcement. Then to be in the right seating position to get the most from your soundstage.
I don't think that Whether you are 83%, 95% or triangle is any more important than understanding standing wave, reflections and reinforcement, this is where some type of formula could come into play. On or off axis listening is a factor of what your final frequency curve is in the room. As, I'm sure that you know, as you take your speakers off axis, you change the top end response heading down to your mid range. If your room caused some sort of peak, much of this could be alieviated when you go off axis, or if you have a very flat response, most of us would like to listen on axis.
Either way, the boundries, could be summed up mathmatically. |
I think Johnk just said it all. There are plenty of formula's, get one to work |
