I would say - listening to music you're familiar with, and comparing. We can talk about tight/bloomy bass, midrange clarity, treble extension and things of that nature. We can also be very specific with regards to how a particular track is supposed to sound; based on high-performance gear that we were able to experience - but only if it purports to be accurate without sonic colorations. Therefore, I guess you could say we have a reference point. This part is what I would consider "objective performance."
Along with this, measurements go hand-in-hand.
On the other side of the coin - subjective performance is how we "want our systems to sound." If the vocals are too bright or sharp, if snares or unpleasant sounding instrumentals ruin an otherwise good song, it's usually because the system is too accurate. So high-end audio is about chasing an ideal that doesn't exist in reality - but in the minds of audiophiles who are seeking a very particular kind of sonic presentation that bodes well with their music library as a whole....giving you just enough detail to keep you interested, while at the same time having a sense of realism, presence, and imaging that makes the speakers dissapear. We are seeking the illusion of a live performance.
The above are just my points. Feel free to share what you think. If you think I'm wrong, I don't mind.
Okay, but you’re talking about saying a 20k amplifier is not worth it, without having the experience yourself.
Are you of good faith? dont put your words in my mouth...
I say before buying any piece of gear you must know HOW WHAT YOU ALREADY OWN SOUND LIKE IN YOUR ROOM after acoustic and mechanical and electrical control before upgrading ...
I NEVER SAY that acoustic transform bad design amplifier in good one...
Crhist transform stone in bread not acoustic method..But Only deluded customers upgrade one piece after the other WITHOUT ever controlling anything in the room/house/ speakers system....
Sorry if i loose cold but you criticized my room without thinking and you accuse me to be deluded....And you claim to be able to give me what advice?
And you dont know what you speak about... Mocking me will not solve your problem... thinking will...
I dont pretend to know anything save what i experimented myself about...
Also, I never said anything disrespectful to you @mahgister
you said "who is the fool" therefore inferring that I am a fool because you have advanced knowledge of acoustic treatments that no other person on the planet is aware of. Certainly your approach to conditioning your room is colorful like a coloring book with scribbles everywhere and stains.
No need to be upset with me...i’m just letting you know what I think. It’s called freedom of speech!
Also, I never said anything disrespectful to you @mahgister
you said "who is the fool" therefore inferring that I am a fool because you have advanced knowledge of acoustic treatments that no other person on the planet is aware of.
No need to be upset with me...i’m just letting you know what I think. It’s called freedom of speech!
I apologize to you because you are right here...
My only excuse is that some mocked my room virtual page in the past and i am sensible to this... 😁😊 i am not perfect you seems a good fellow...it is just that i react too swift sometimes...
You are right you spoke sincerely to me and i apologize to you ... i am sorry if i lost my "cool"...
getting speaker stands, an acoustic pad for your speakers,
My speakers are modified by the way by heavy concrete load yes but also by some Helmholtz devices attached to them and on top of them (psycho-acoustic method here)...This is not visible on this old pictures...I i will not put images for two reasong: no one need to do that and i dont want some people to mock me. i am a bit to reactive to need that...
By the way they are on mutiple materials decoupling platform and under isolating springs tuned compression in two way with two different compressive forces applied with a second set of springs on top of them and under a different compressive load because being on top the weight of the speakers is applied with the load only on the first springs set... They do marvel for decreasing resonance impact... cost: peanuts...Springs are tuned under 100 grams of load by ears...The total concrete load is around 80 poounds +speakers weight ...
Then you did not have ever see my room and speakers...
I dont suggest to people to transform their living room in a "mad lair scientist" audio room i suggest common sense experiments in mechanical electrical, and acoustical control...
I would suggest cleaning up your desk,
and getting rid of all the stuff on your ceiling.
Respect me and keep your simplistic advices... I will respect you also...
People are used to throw their money...The reason is precisely it is simpler to throw money than thinking...
Not only most room are an acoustic INVISIBLE mess and they dont even know but the world is a visible mess right now and they dont figure it out either...
They dont read acoustic articles for example... True research articles not publicity ... They dont experiment and they dont inform themselves most of the times...And they judged my old audio room... 😁😊
All of what i experimented with is ALREADY KNOWN...But they cannot figure it out...
There is no need for a layman like me to wrote a book about acoustic...
But i can give some truth advices here where all people think that the onlty way to reach high end sound is 500,000 systems...
Mine is 500 bucks sorry...And i had a sound quality not SO far off that people may think from a 500,000 bucks system... Thats is my truth...
I reacted because the OP was alluding sarcastingly about my virtual page thats all...
I dont need to write books i already published four... 😁😊
And acoustic and psycho acoustic is not my expertise...
I only go with 2 years listening experiments because i am lucky enough to own an audio room...
Discovering that the costly upgrading road is a deceptive illusion for most , i choose to give my advices AFTER my experiments:
Dont upgrade anything BEFORE trying to embed rightfully mechanically, electrically and acoustically what you already own...Is it not sound simple advice nobody gave here ?
People are like children waiting for magic formulas they dont want to experiments ...But some can... This is the reason why i posted here for them and to motivate their own creativity at NO COSTS...I sell nothing save thinking motivation...
@mahgister that is true the info is all out there for the taking.
But the op is asking us as individuals how we do it. That book about me is not out there. It would be a bestseller, believe me! 😉
You should write a book too. Maybe get some independent sources to review. Never hurts!
I have an audio buddy who is really into measurements. He claims if it measures well it will sound good. He has gone through as many components as I have and is still chasing that perfect sound. I don’t think he likes the equipment he has picked out and measures so well!? Once he bought the same speakers I had bought. I purchased them strictly because I liked how they sounded at my dealer.....
I have an audio buddy who is really into measurements. He claims if it measures well it will sound good. He has gone through as many components as I have and is still chasing that perfect sound. I don’t think he likes the equipment he has picked out and measures so well!? Once he bought the same speakers I had bought. I purchased them strictly because I liked how they sounded at my dealer.....
I go by sound..... not measurements.
Very interesting story about someone who think measurements are voltmeter and decibel meter or laser pinpoint toe in...
But acoustic measurements has almost NOTHING to do with that (decibel meter are useful here)...It is about sound speed/ room size, head diameter, reverberation time, reflected waves timing, diameter cross ratio of the Helmholtz devices, densities of ions, temperatiure and air circulation, absorbtion/reflections/diffusion ratios, locations of devices, ratio behind the speakers distance and the room and the head location etc....
Ignorance in audio thread promoted by SOME gear or tweaks sellers is there to sell upgrade without end...Customers believe it...
I have nothing against a tweak or an upgrade read me right!
But tweaks are not a method, and upgrading what we already own whitout having ever listen to it in optimal condition BEFORE changing it, is pure obsessive ignorant unconsciousness...
People dont want to know because they think it is too complicated probably and not costly enough to be true,😁
The truth is, it is acoustic and only acoustic that explain how and why all acoustical cues emerge from the speakers/room relation...Not the price tag...
The gear is secondary, acoustic primary...
Only the audio engineer can and must judge the design quality of their product BEFORE it is embedded in a room by their own set of standard electronical measures ... Only you can judge their design and product AFTER it is rightfully embedded in your room by using acoustic treament and mechanical acoustic control and tuning of YOUR room for YOUR specific ears ... This is my answer to the OP question...
Ignorance in audio thread promoted by SOME gear or tweaks sellers is there to sell upgrade without end...Customers believe it...
Yes, this is the tried and tested sales method that has caught out many many people.
I should know, I was one of them.
As you say, experimenting with positioning, room tuning and vibration control is a more reliable way forward.
Even in my situation where I have little choice but to keep the speakers within 8 inches of the front wall, a little experimenting with height and isolation has helped considerably.
One particular tweak that worked for me was to experiment with the tightness of the screws that hold the bass driver in place.
In the end I preferred 'finger tight' as opposed to going any further.
My speakers are modified by the way by heavy concrete load yes but also by some Helmholtz devices attached to them and on top of them (psycho-acoustic method here)...
Concrete as a damping material?
Let’s assume your speakers are already well damped. A good design by the manufacturer. You say I’m simplistic, but you have made a complex mess.
You also have 2 floor fans in your room alongside kitchen pans. Does this also improve the sound? And what does the aluminum foil in the corner of the ceiling do? That all could have been used in a nice toaster oven to warm up pizza...or create a wifi range extender.
These fans are remnants of past experiences years ago ... you have no clue about my ACTUAL audio room.. Why do you stick on these old images?
And you know nothing save sarcasm... I apologized to you post above because i think i was rude... 😁😊
You know nothing in acoustic, what is a reflective surface ? What do you think aluminum do for a part of the spectrum?
Ok forget me, i dont discuss with idiot that mock me..And i dont like free sarcasms from someone who think he knows better and who is manifestly ignorant ..
No more apology...
Let’s assume your speakers are already well damped. A good design by the manufacturer. You say I’m simplistic, but you have made a complex mess.
By the way do you think it is difficult to put concrete in a speaker and listen the result?
Only an idiot can say that my speakers are a mess WITHOUT listening them..
Only an ignorant can think that most speakers eliminate all resonance...
This may be an idiotic comment made by an ignorant person, but why don't you post updated pictures of your system and room? And yeah, I'm talking to you!
I discuss acoustic matter... From my experiments...
Posting images has no usefulness...No room is the same ...
And my audio room is not a model , it is my location to listen and experiment...
Imagine the number of idiots who will speak to me rudely or without any respect when seeing a room with heavily modified speakers, and hundred of devices and Helmholtz resonators made with junk?
Why do you think i never add photos to my virutal page?
Did you catch?
Ignorant people associate audio experience with esthetic and price tag...
It is possible to create an audio room esthetical yes but at high cost not with junk material and homemade devices ...
But acoustic science work without price tag attached to the devices...
And if you speak to me like you just did forget me...
Just kidding. Although ... I bet quite some equipment choices get based on that.
To judge a system is largely subjective. Some like vocal jazz, some like hard rock ... they may require completely different setups.
I think @electroslackernailed it ... if it makes you smile and feel good, then the sound is good (for you).
Oh, and reviews. I guess most of us read reviews before buying? Even though it’s a non ideal way to judge if I will like the sound, I want to know what others think of a product. I once bought a pair of earbuds solely based on reviews. Every review said they have incredible, actually unbelievable, sound for their price. I got myself a pair and guess what? They make me smile every time. Their price? Incredible indeed ... $7,95.
Don't lose your cold, I'm just bustin' balls. (See I just did it again!) And you only BB people you like.
You post a lot about what people don't understand about room acoustic that you've figured out. Plus how misguided others are to spend so much money when your successful methods are dirt cheap and more effective. Wouldn't a few pictures help others get to where you are?
I Am not an acoustician, but i know enough after my successful experiments to know what really matter in audiophile experience... If someone dont want to threw his money...My posts are only here to motivate some to play with simple no cost acoustic experiments...
The others will do what they do best : consume price tags...
This virtual page dates back to my beginning and many people mocked my experiments because of low price and ugliness of the no cost materials i used to...I am not crafty and no one explain how to do it...I read about acoustic not in audio sites, they dont explain what to do... The most useful information i read about was a research paper by three japanese acoustician about the use of reflection to create a better LEV/ASW ratio...They dont propose concrete way to use them in small audio room but it is not a mystery to figure it our with experiments... It was fun... Way more than throwing money on costly upgrades... it worked and i go on with that... i study how to create Helmholtz resonators after that with books and net images... Etc Acoustic passive materials treatment is the first thing to do for sure...it is very well known this part... Mechanical adjustable acoustic active control with resonators fine tuned is not well known but you can tame all small room easily with that...
My acoustic experiments are from the last 2 years mostly...
it is meaningless to post images of hundred of devices...Why? To be mocked ?
Any people with a brain are able to figure out Helmholtz method and devices... The materials used has no importance , only their mathematical RATIOS and location matter...
Anybody with a brain can use psycho-acoustic basic fact and use a foldable screen in conjugate relation with the 2 speakers (a) and (b) for the ear A and the ear B, in a timing way with some acoustic cross talk and some acoustic crossfeed to create an intimacy rivaling any headphone...
Anybody can experiment with Schuman generators...
Anybody can learn how to clean in a simple way the electrical noise floor...
Anybody can learn how to decrease resonance and vibrations at low cost...
this is what i experimented to, at peanuts cost, because esthetic was not my concern...
My advice is simple:
dont upgrade anything BEFORE control installed in mechanical and electrical and acoustical dimensions..
And anyway no room need the same treatment and no one has the same freedom and will and time to experiments...
My second advice: try simple experiments at no cost, listen and learn...
I let this virtual page for those who judge on appearance.... 😁 i
But i will not add cardboard rolls, straws , hundred of tubes, and plumber discarded tubes to be mocked by people who dont want to understand acoustic and pscyho-acoustic..
Simple...
my best to you...
Don’t lose your cold, I’m just bustin’ balls. (See I just did it again!) And you only BB people you like.
You post a lot about what people don’t understand about room acoustic that you’ve figured out. Plus how misguided others are to spend so much money when your successful methods are dirt cheap and more effective. Wouldn’t a few pictures help others get to where you are?
I never tried to insult you or ridicule you. It was you who lashed out at me. I'm simply making suggestings that would benefit your listening experience.
it is common knowledge that placing objects on the ceiling are not beneficial unless you buy an acoustic panel for the ceiling. This kind of treatment is used on many audiophile systems and within studios.
Your overall style of conditioning the room is unorthodox at the extreme.
I'd like to hear your system...maybe you can upload a video of it playing to YouTube? Surely, the sound quality won't be equal to actually being there, but it can be an effective way to audition systems without seeing them in person.
If you have a link to a video, feel free to share it.
Also I don't understand why you keep comparing your system to others that cost more...stating that for peanuts you revamped your room and significantly improvrdbsound quality without ever having to spend lots of money. That sounds like bragging to me. It's like you're mocking other audiophiles that have expensive audio systems...
Part of my devices are unorthodox a part are perfectly well known acoustic principles..
Communicating my discoveries dont means that people will imitate me..,
Most dont own a dedicated room , and dont want to created their own devices because this is unesthetical... and tuning a room ask for time a lot of time... How do you think a professional acoustically design room cost?
My gool was to experiment and learn acoustic , and understand what means for example LEV/ASW ratio...
Only this simple acoustic concept is nowhere to be discussed in all audiogon...
Anyway it is simple : all my 8 headphones even modified had no more interest for me... This is telling something no? no need for a costly mic i would buy to satisfy you tomorrow... Perhaps in the future...
I dont mind if you dont believe me, but if your think about some devices and concepts i spoke about why not experimenting yourself ?
Here you put in my mouth what is not in my posts at all :
Also I don’t understand why you keep comparing your system to others that cost more...stating that for peanuts you revamped your room and significantly improvrdbsound quality without ever having to spend lots of money. That sounds like bragging to me. It’s like you’re mocking other audiophiles that have expensive audio systems...
First: no acoustic method or devices, no vibrations control snd no control over the electrical noise floor will ever transform a cheap amplifier in something that will be an audiophile experience...
Do you think i am dumb?
Only Christ make bread with stone...
Then you misinterpreted and distorted my posts here...Acoustic powerful improvement i was i spoke about...NOT THE GEAR PRICE TAG....
Second i never "bragg" about my gear brand name to be the best there is, only basic very good piece of gear...I loved them yes...
The only think i "bragg" about is the ratio S.Q. /PRICE do you understand what this concept means?
it DOES NOT MEANS that my system can beat the potential high-end one at all, it means my system in a controlled room is NOT SO FAR AWAY BEHIND some high end one... i do not and never equated my system to costly high end potential ... I only say that i am no more ENVIOUS nor frustrated...That says a lot...
Why?
Because acoustic ONLY can put a good system on the way to his optimal potential...
But the optimal potential of a 2000 bucks amplifier, so good it is, will not transform it in a 20,000 better one..
Did you catch?
Then stop accusing me of "bragging " about my gear ... i promoted acoustic and psycho-ascoustic method... Inform yourself, read science, experiment ...
Audiophile experience is possible at relatively LOW COST if someone use acoustic principles..There is a MINIMAL acoustic threshold of qualitative experience that anyone can reach WITHOUT MONEY...This treshold quatitative experience is an audiophile experience not so far behind high costly one...
This dont means that i am the idiot you describe equating my system/room to high end one...A high end system in a bad room though may sound fatiguing, over analytic and worst than mine though ...Guess why?
It is not bragging it is simple acoustic experience about timbre perception...
The fact that you are ignorant, dont make me a genius..You are only interested to insult me by insinuation...
i am stupid to answer you...
All my experiments are based on simple acoustic and no studio need me... i dont teach experts acoustician i inform people like you... But you want photos of my cheap devices to insult me more instead of reading simple basic acoustic...
I never insulted you. I'm serious. If your acoustic treatments make a lot of difference, then take it to people who deal with audio for a living. I bet they could learn something from you.
No audiophile cares about how inexpensive or costly a fellow audiophiles system is or tweaks. I was attacked by you, simply because I consider your approach very unique compared to others.
I start with a high quality jazz recording, then some classic rock and finally some 80s pop. After that, I begin with my well known favorite songs. Regardless of that, what I value most is how well the speakers present the soundstage and how good is the imaging. If the phantom "third channel" is cleary present then is a winner for me. Other subtleties such as if the sound is neutral, warm are of my interest only if the speakers passed the first tests.
@insoc-- Thank you for getting this thread back on track--what a derailment!
OP - whether you feel like you insulted mahgister or not, as a former judge i would have to rule that you did simply by telling him he needed to get rid of many things and although many long time contributors here have found his "system" to be very unique indeed, no one has judged it.
On the topic at hand, i take several well-recorded vinyl records and CD's (all live recordings) and play them on systems i'm considering--if the music sounds live--I am there and it sounds right--good enough for me...
I disagree with the first paragraph in your opening question. Your objective will be different from mine and probably most other contributors on this forum. So, it is subjective.
I significantly agree with the comments in your third paragraph, especially the latter part.
It has taken me 40 years to get the sound that I am very satisfied with. No longer do I criticise my system because it always provides me with an entertaining experience and, that's all that matters.
I have learned how to audition new components, passively, to begin with. I also have studied the perception of hearing and, therefore, I observe not only the music reproduction, but my state of mind and wellbeing at the same time. High end hi-fi systems are very fickle and can require re-tuning from time to time. But so is our ability to LISTEN.
Whether it's a electronics, cables or accessories, what I'm looking for is value add
I'm in search of new and improved playback content that I have not heard in previous playbacks that enhances the enjoyment of my listening experience
I have a handful of reference material, that changes over time, that I know in great detail
I can typically detect in the first 2 or 3 songs if the needle is being moved in the right direction
If I have to labor over the decision or comparison, the juice is probably not worth the squeeze
For me, keeping it simple instead of analysis paralysis is preferred
That said I've resolved myself to know that this is not a perfect science and thus I'm probably leaving 10-15% of opportunity on the table, and I'm OK with that
But moving the needle in the right direction gets me closer, closer to what is in the ears of the beholder as we have no end state or final destination
One of the great beauties of this hobby, IMO, we're never finished
You know that what I’m saying is true. Trying to build a progressive society and make folks who are unique special snowflakes does not improve anything.
I wish you could explain how it all works. But what you’re saying doesn’t make any sense. And besides, a room that cluttered with various objects will act as an obstacle for the propagation of sound waves; hence your different experience after the tweaks.
At best, you are doing a disservice to Sansui, since they are no longer in business. You have a nice system, but there is no need for your tweaks to improve sound quality.
Do you really think your room as equal to an anechoic chamber?
You are probably creating dozens, if not hundreds of unique reflection points. It is impossible for your tweaks to improve sound quality in any meaningful way.
I SAID I DONT WANT TO DISCUSS WITH YOU' I DONT ARGUE WITH PEOPLE WHO INSULT AND INSINUATE INSTEAD OF THINKING.
IF YOU HARASS ME AGAIN...
I WILL REPORT YOU
mahgister some people understand acoustics and some people don't. It's pretty simple. Helmholtz is the ONLY way to tune a room. Vibration and electrical are just as important..
I personally like ugly.. I don't have 10,000 post but I've read 10,000,000 post. I've followed Mr. Mahgister sense the beginning. Pictures. I got some pictures all right..
I've heard more BAD room than good by a long shot. Everyone was pretty too. Cost the people 100k and still sound like crap.. Do you think they would listen. NO to busy LOOKING rather than listening. It looks pretty so it has to sound good.
80% of the time it's not the case..
I'd report someone in my mailbox too. EXIT only, I send mail I don't receive it. :-)
You can have the best equipment you are able to afford, but the room acoustics are the single biggest determinate of how your system will sound. So I try to match the system to the room (generally speaking), with the brightest-sounding going into the room with the most upholstered furniture and bric-a-brac scattered about. The majority of floors in my condo are laminate, so wall treatments are used, along with two large floor-standing absorption panels in one room. Ironically, my highest end system is located in the area where the acoustics are the worst (the dining-area/kitchen), because that is the area where my Vandersteen 3As work the best because of the square footage available (20' x 10'). The floor there is ceramic tile, but the uneven wall surfaces (cabinets) help ameliorate that large negative factor.
I am also a big believer in the heavier-is-better theory, because that is usually an indicator of a well-made product (the one exception to that rule in my inventory is a PS Audio HCA-2 amp, which sounds really good and only weighs 30 pounds). The synergy between components also matters more than the quality of any one piece.
I’ve heard more BAD room than good by a long shot. Everyone was pretty too. Cost the people 100k and still sound like crap.. Do you think they would listen. NO to busy LOOKING rather than listening. It looks pretty so it has to sound good.
80% of the time it’s not the case..
Oh really? Well you must have a subjective-only view to sound.
In that case, I suppose you can’t tell the difference between a costly system and a cheap one, or a .mp3 file and CD quality or high res.
You might as well get a bluetooth speaker and be done with it.
I speak the truth. Got attacked because some of you disagree with me and that’s fine on the surface...but you all take it way too personally. Reminds me of the fellow students I used to outlass in gym class back in high school. The good old days. I got labelled a bully even though I never picked on anyone or tried to make enemies. And online, all the losers get together and attack the big wolf.
Audiophiles are non-technical kooks. And you are the king of the audiophile kooks. Congrats. And you know what? I’m quoting Ken Rockwell. He was right all along.
Goes to show that most audiophiles have no idea what good sound actually is - especially here on audiogon and other forum sites. So many of you have no real conceptual understanding of what makes 1 system better than another, except for purely subjective viewpoints. May as well have the opinions of children and high school students to guide me.
Do you run the fans on low, medium, or high -- what effect does each setting have on the sound? Have you experimented with filling the gas can with different levels of fluid? I would think a metal can vs plastic can would make a big difference in sound wave control -- did you try each and if so what were the findings?
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