How do you judge audio components and speakers?
I would say - listening to music you're familiar with, and comparing. We can talk about tight/bloomy bass, midrange clarity, treble extension and things of that nature. We can also be very specific with regards to how a particular track is supposed to sound; based on high-performance gear that we were able to experience - but only if it purports to be accurate without sonic colorations. Therefore, I guess you could say we have a reference point. This part is what I would consider "objective performance."
Along with this, measurements go hand-in-hand.
On the other side of the coin - subjective performance is how we "want our systems to sound." If the vocals are too bright or sharp, if snares or unpleasant sounding instrumentals ruin an otherwise good song, it's usually because the system is too accurate. So high-end audio is about chasing an ideal that doesn't exist in reality - but in the minds of audiophiles who are seeking a very particular kind of sonic presentation that bodes well with their music library as a whole....giving you just enough detail to keep you interested, while at the same time having a sense of realism, presence, and imaging that makes the speakers dissapear. We are seeking the illusion of a live performance.
The above are just my points. Feel free to share what you think. If you think I'm wrong, I don't mind.
Cheers.
Jack
I already answered... The fact that you are ignorant, dont make me a genius..You are only interested to insult me by insinuation... i am stupid to answer you... All my experiments are based on simple acoustic and no studio need me... i dont teach experts acoustician i inform people like you... But you want photos of my cheap devices to insult me more instead of reading simple basic acoustic... i am done with you...Argue with your mirror...
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You are right for sure! But i am human, and i am not used to be insulted here and in my box mail... But you are right about shouting... Thanks for your generous advice ...
My best to you...
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I dont know if i am "clinically mentally ill" but i know you are not a gentleman my friend... you insulted me after 25 posts presence in Audiogon , without answering any question or answering any arguments i put for about why acoustic and psaycho-acoustic is important... How shiny is my amplifier and how messy is my own audio room seems to be the way to attack me PERSONALLY... I dont like you and the way you came insulting me even through my personal box mail here... Suppose i am "nut", this alleged fact will not change your tactic with insults instead of discussion... Stop insulting me.... But your last post is more than an insult it is an accusation through insinuation... your character is despicable... by the way what is a "disgrace" to this hobby is not my modified "speakers" set or room but your behaviour... The good news and bad news is if some doctor can psychiatrically treat my case if i am like you suggest, being a "bully" and "ignorant" is not matter for help in medecine....
Now i will go out of your thread BUT STOP INSULTING AND ACCUSING ME when i am not there... IS IT CLEAR?
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The "fans" were devices i used years ago, and the gasoline cans as Helmholtz primitive first experiments... Yes i experimented with them.... It was the begininng ... These virtual page is not my actual room... i dont use them anymore... I use tubes , plumbers one or other kind of time from few inches size to 8 feet high with different volumes and use straws of different lenght and perimeter as neck and mouth...
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Part of my devices are unorthodox a part are perfectly well known acoustic principles.. Communicating my discoveries dont means that people will imitate me.., Most dont own a dedicated room , and dont want to created their own devices because this is unesthetical... and tuning a room ask for time a lot of time... How do you think a professional acoustically design room cost?
My gool was to experiment and learn acoustic , and understand what means for example LEV/ASW ratio... Only this simple acoustic concept is nowhere to be discussed in all audiogon...
Anyway it is simple : all my 8 headphones even modified had no more interest for me... This is telling something no? no need for a costly mic i would buy to satisfy you tomorrow... Perhaps in the future... I dont mind if you dont believe me, but if your think about some devices and concepts i spoke about why not experimenting yourself ?
Here you put in my mouth what is not in my posts at all :
First: no acoustic method or devices, no vibrations control snd no control over the electrical noise floor will ever transform a cheap amplifier in something that will be an audiophile experience... Do you think i am dumb? Only Christ make bread with stone... Then you misinterpreted and distorted my posts here...Acoustic powerful improvement i was i spoke about...NOT THE GEAR PRICE TAG.... Second i never "bragg" about my gear brand name to be the best there is, only basic very good piece of gear...I loved them yes... The only think i "bragg" about is the ratio S.Q. /PRICE do you understand what this concept means? it DOES NOT MEANS that my system can beat the potential high-end one at all, it means my system in a controlled room is NOT SO FAR AWAY BEHIND some high end one... i do not and never equated my system to costly high end potential ... I only say that i am no more ENVIOUS nor frustrated...That says a lot... Why? Because acoustic ONLY can put a good system on the way to his optimal potential... But the optimal potential of a 2000 bucks amplifier, so good it is, will not transform it in a 20,000 better one.. Did you catch? Then stop accusing me of "bragging " about my gear ... i promoted acoustic and psycho-ascoustic method... Inform yourself, read science, experiment ... Audiophile experience is possible at relatively LOW COST if someone use acoustic principles..There is a MINIMAL acoustic threshold of qualitative experience that anyone can reach WITHOUT MONEY...This treshold quatitative experience is an audiophile experience not so far behind high costly one... This dont means that i am the idiot you describe equating my system/room to high end one...A high end system in a bad room though may sound fatiguing, over analytic and worst than mine though ...Guess why? It is not bragging it is simple acoustic experience about timbre perception...
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I Am not an acoustician, but i know enough after my successful experiments to know what really matter in audiophile experience... If someone dont want to threw his money...My posts are only here to motivate some to play with simple no cost acoustic experiments... The others will do what they do best : consume price tags... This virtual page dates back to my beginning and many people mocked my experiments because of low price and ugliness of the no cost materials i used to...I am not crafty and no one explain how to do it...I read about acoustic not in audio sites, they dont explain what to do... The most useful information i read about was a research paper by three japanese acoustician about the use of reflection to create a better LEV/ASW ratio...They dont propose concrete way to use them in small audio room but it is not a mystery to figure it our with experiments... It was fun... Way more than throwing money on costly upgrades... it worked and i go on with that... i study how to create Helmholtz resonators after that with books and net images... Etc Acoustic passive materials treatment is the first thing to do for sure...it is very well known this part... Mechanical adjustable acoustic active control with resonators fine tuned is not well known but you can tame all small room easily with that...
My acoustic experiments are from the last 2 years mostly... it is meaningless to post images of hundred of devices...Why? To be mocked ? Any people with a brain are able to figure out Helmholtz method and devices... The materials used has no importance , only their mathematical RATIOS and location matter... Anybody with a brain can use psycho-acoustic basic fact and use a foldable screen in conjugate relation with the 2 speakers (a) and (b) for the ear A and the ear B, in a timing way with some acoustic cross talk and some acoustic crossfeed to create an intimacy rivaling any headphone... Anybody can experiment with Schuman generators... Anybody can learn how to clean in a simple way the electrical noise floor... Anybody can learn how to decrease resonance and vibrations at low cost... this is what i experimented to, at peanuts cost, because esthetic was not my concern... My advice is simple: dont upgrade anything BEFORE control installed in mechanical and electrical and acoustical dimensions..
And anyway no room need the same treatment and no one has the same freedom and will and time to experiments... My second advice: try simple experiments at no cost, listen and learn...
I let this virtual page for those who judge on appearance.... 😁 i But i will not add cardboard rolls, straws , hundred of tubes, and plumber discarded tubes to be mocked by people who dont want to understand acoustic and pscyho-acoustic.. Simple... my best to you...
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I am not surprized that people judge on look... It is not my actual system be the way... I know i could not post Helmholtz resonators made with cardboard rolls, straws. and plumbers pipes... 😁😊 This page is not my actual acoustic room... Sometimes the post we put on the air described us... My virtual page is a mirror... Be concerned!
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Did i disrespect you ? Then it is not necessary to add that :
I discuss acoustic matter... From my experiments... Posting images has no usefulness...No room is the same ... And my audio room is not a model , it is my location to listen and experiment... Imagine the number of idiots who will speak to me rudely or without any respect when seeing a room with heavily modified speakers, and hundred of devices and Helmholtz resonators made with junk? Why do you think i never add photos to my virutal page? Did you catch? Ignorant people associate audio experience with esthetic and price tag... It is possible to create an audio room esthetical yes but at high cost not with junk material and homemade devices ... But acoustic science work without price tag attached to the devices...
And if you speak to me like you just did forget me... YEAH! i speak to you...
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These fans are remnants of past experiences years ago ... you have no clue about my ACTUAL audio room.. Why do you stick on these old images? And you know nothing save sarcasm... I apologized to you post above because i think i was rude... 😁😊 You know nothing in acoustic, what is a reflective surface ? What do you think aluminum do for a part of the spectrum? Ok forget me, i dont discuss with idiot that mock me..And i dont like free sarcasms from someone who think he knows better and who is manifestly ignorant .. No more apology...
By the way do you think it is difficult to put concrete in a speaker and listen the result? Only an idiot can say that my speakers are a mess WITHOUT listening them.. Only an ignorant can think that most speakers eliminate all resonance... Bye...
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Very interesting story about someone who think measurements are voltmeter and decibel meter or laser pinpoint toe in... But acoustic measurements has almost NOTHING to do with that (decibel meter are useful here)...It is about sound speed/ room size, head diameter, reverberation time, reflected waves timing, diameter cross ratio of the Helmholtz devices, densities of ions, temperatiure and air circulation, absorbtion/reflections/diffusion ratios, locations of devices, ratio behind the speakers distance and the room and the head location etc.... Ignorance in audio thread promoted by SOME gear or tweaks sellers is there to sell upgrade without end...Customers believe it... I have nothing against a tweak or an upgrade read me right! But tweaks are not a method, and upgrading what we already own whitout having ever listen to it in optimal condition BEFORE changing it, is pure obsessive ignorant unconsciousness... People dont want to know because they think it is too complicated probably and not costly enough to be true,😁 The truth is, it is acoustic and only acoustic that explain how and why all acoustical cues emerge from the speakers/room relation...Not the price tag... The gear is secondary, acoustic primary...
Only the audio engineer can and must judge the design quality of their product BEFORE it is embedded in a room by their own set of standard electronical measures ... Only you can judge their design and product AFTER it is rightfully embedded in your room by using acoustic treament and mechanical acoustic control and tuning of YOUR room for YOUR specific ears ... This is my answer to the OP question...
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I reacted because the OP was alluding sarcastingly about my virtual page thats all... I dont need to write books i already published four... 😁😊 And acoustic and psycho acoustic is not my expertise... I only go with 2 years listening experiments because i am lucky enough to own an audio room... Discovering that the costly upgrading road is a deceptive illusion for most , i choose to give my advices AFTER my experiments: Dont upgrade anything BEFORE trying to embed rightfully mechanically, electrically and acoustically what you already own...Is it not sound simple advice nobody gave here ?
People are like children waiting for magic formulas they dont want to experiments ...But some can... This is the reason why i posted here for them and to motivate their own creativity at NO COSTS...I sell nothing save thinking motivation...
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People are used to throw their money...The reason is precisely it is simpler to throw money than thinking... Not only most room are an acoustic INVISIBLE mess and they dont even know but the world is a visible mess right now and they dont figure it out either... They dont read acoustic articles for example... True research articles not publicity ... They dont experiment and they dont inform themselves most of the times...And they judged my old audio room... 😁😊 All of what i experimented with is ALREADY KNOWN...But they cannot figure it out... There is no need for a layman like me to wrote a book about acoustic... But i can give some truth advices here where all people think that the onlty way to reach high end sound is 500,000 systems... Mine is 500 bucks sorry...And i had a sound quality not SO far off that people may think from a 500,000 bucks system... Thats is my truth...
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You go again but this time i will smile... 😊
My speakers are modified by the way by heavy concrete load yes but also by some Helmholtz devices attached to them and on top of them (psycho-acoustic method here)...This is not visible on this old pictures...I i will not put images for two reasong: no one need to do that and i dont want some people to mock me. i am a bit to reactive to need that... By the way they are on mutiple materials decoupling platform and under isolating springs tuned compression in two way with two different compressive forces applied with a second set of springs on top of them and under a different compressive load because being on top the weight of the speakers is applied with the load only on the first springs set... They do marvel for decreasing resonance impact... cost: peanuts...Springs are tuned under 100 grams of load by ears...The total concrete load is around 80 poounds +speakers weight ... Then you did not have ever see my room and speakers... I dont suggest to people to transform their living room in a "mad lair scientist" audio room i suggest common sense experiments in mechanical electrical, and acoustical control...
Respect me and keep your simplistic advices... I will respect you also... Respect is a TWO WAY road...
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I apologize to you because you are right here... My only excuse is that some mocked my room virtual page in the past and i am sensible to this... 😁😊 i am not perfect you seems a good fellow...it is just that i react too swift sometimes... You are right you spoke sincerely to me and i apologize to you ... i am sorry if i lost my "cool"... My best to you... |
Are you of good faith? dont put your words in my mouth... I say before buying any piece of gear you must know HOW WHAT YOU ALREADY OWN SOUND LIKE IN YOUR ROOM after acoustic and mechanical and electrical control before upgrading ... I NEVER SAY that acoustic transform bad design amplifier in good one... Crhist transform stone in bread not acoustic method..But Only deluded customers upgrade one piece after the other WITHOUT ever controlling anything in the room/house/ speakers system.... Sorry if i loose cold but you criticized my room without thinking and you accuse me to be deluded....And you claim to be able to give me what advice? And you dont know what you speak about... Mocking me will not solve your problem... thinking will... I dont pretend to know anything save what i experimented myself about... |
You dont know what you are talking about... Near field listening and regular field listening are the TWO positions very influenced by room tratment and control in a room under asround 15 feet ? Why? take the speed of sound and the roiom size and think about the number of times the waves front coming from EACH speakers touch your two different ears...
Any studios already pay very highly acousticians to do their job they dont needed me... And instead of mocking me THINK by yourself about what i suggest...."You common sense advice " are what? You only suggested that i am a "fool" BECAUSE ME i can suggest sound advice ; think about simple acoustic experiments BEFORE buying anything... Who is the fool?
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First: all 8 headphones cannot be bad, and sayoing that headphones and speeakers/room are different is sayo=ing nothing... It is a common place fact... Second : the acoustic of abig hall is not the acoustic of a boig room, and the acoustic of a small room is NOT the acoustic of a big room... And there is no relation with the acoustic of a studio and the acoustic of a small room...mine is 13 feet square... Acoustic is an art, you must adapt all devices and method to a SPECIFIC size, acoustic materials content of the hall or room or studio, geometry ( form) and topology (windows and doors).. There is NO MAGICAL RECIPE in acoustic control...Save for those who sell costly acoustic panels... but passive material treatment is not mechanical active control, the two complement each other... I am not an acoustician specializing in studio acoustic by tyhe way and this has nothing to do with a small room adapted FORTHGE TWO EARS of the owner... A studio cannotbe controlled for only 2 specific ears ... Acoustic is not a simplkemater you must EXPERIMENT... This is the bad news... The good news is this may cost peanuts and itis more fun than buying a 20,000 amplifier and plugging it in the wall ... My best to you.... |
All images on my "virtual page" are from BEFORE my Helmholtz researching devices resonators and diffusers experiments... And anyway it is impossible to present all my golden plate ( shungite+copper+graphene) all around the electrical grid of my house and room in images... This room is my audio room not your living room... Second i know first hand what is a reverberation time why? I control it at will, because it is one of the way i can create my imaging and soundstage and timbre experience and LEV/ASW ratio.... Third you can think that i am deluded if you will, for me all people WORSHIPPING their gear without knowing anything in acoustic and psycho-acoustic are the deluded... Four, Not only i used a grid of Helmhotlz diffusers and resonators but also ionization of the room method and a grid of cheap modified Schumann generators....With success AT LOW COST... If i am deluded why all my 8 headphones sound like unnatural and bad compared to my 2 listening positions in my mechanically controlled room ? I begun with headphones modification 8 years ago... all my successfully modified headphones are now in a drawer RETIRED...They dont compared to my room speakers AT ALL in any acoustic count and cues...Even my 2 Stax... Do you even know the importance of controlling vibration under your gear? Do you even know the importance of decreasing the electrcal noise floor of the house /room and filtering RFI ? Then add to that the importance of physical acoustic with Helmholtz method and psycho-physical acoustic with my own method to use the 2 speakers A and B for each one of my ears ALPHA and BETA by some acoustic crossfeed and acoustic crosstalk in a specific way ? Then dont laugh at these 4 years old photos....I hate when people mock others by the way... The last one to mock my old room was a sellers here.... You have prpbably NO IDEA what to do to control an audio system in their three working dimensions...Save to buy and plug... Esthetic and price has nothing to do with Acoustic save for gullible customers of "chic" audio magazine...I could not create esthetical acoustic devices at peanuts costs and i could not redo completely the room and insert all devices in an invisible way... Do you ewven know how cost a designed room ? 100,000 bucks...Mine cost NOTHING... Two years time listening experiments to tune the room yes and it was the fun of my life better and more wise than throwing money in upgrades...Wjo laugh? I dont buy costly tweaks, i replicated them in my way by the way... Who laugh? I am not a gear worshipper all my devices cost peanuts, and most acoustic devices are homemade with junk from my basement... Why? Open an acoustic book, and look at equations what they said? Acoustic is about acoustic properties of matter, about measured ratio, and numbers...What is the relation between the sound speed, the dimensions of your room, his geometry, his topology, and acoustic content and ESPECIALLY the relation betwenn the differential of sound speed around your head and your 2 ears and the 2 speakers that are in reality "4" speakers for your brain... Why do you think in some recordings i am on the center stage of the recording event, or i listen the sound coming from my back or immediate side with some instruments behind the speakers at the same time ? Who laugh? That is all i am about... I dont buy upgrading gear and i dont plug it in the wall and boast about brand names...Like most do...Who laugh? Then dont laugh at my old room, after my listenings experiments it is me who laugh the last... By the way nobody with a working brain need to see my room to understand the SIMPLE advices i give to help people focussing on mechanical, electrical and acoustical embeddings controls BEFORE any upgrade meaningless throwing of money...
Acoustic is the sleeping princess, the pieces of gear are ONLY the seven working dwarves, and the kissing prince is the psycho-acoustic miraculous touch... Simple enough?
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It is not the best there is for sure... But my ratio S.Q. / price is over the roof... The best description is i prefer it to my 8 headphones...They are in a drawer definitively... I begun my journey with headphones...I modified them all with success...My speakers/room beat them all now... But it will be impossible to create this without acoustical control and not only some treatment, also filtering and decreasing control for the electrical noise floor, and vibration control... The last improvement is an intimacy who rival all my headphones... i am really happy so much that i dont even want to upgrade some day to my dreamed amplifier... Berning ZOTL... It is no more necessary... Many years ago i was frustrated with this 500 bucks system...Same system...And i am in heaven... My best to you...
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i used springs...my speakers areon my desk, relativelu big one for a desk... All my gear is behind my screen comnputer... I used 4 springs boxes (chineese cheap one) under the speakers.... For the intehrated the same recipe will do the job... And under springs different materials ( bamboo plate cork plate granite plate sorbothane) But springs under my speakers too.... Thanks for your kindness i wish you the best....
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Imaging, and "disapearing speakers" , are not "extras" they are acoustical fundamental factors which can perfectly be controlled at will by understanding of room acoustic... And ALL acoustical factors anyway are interrelated, bass,dynamic, treble, mids, imaging, soundstage , LEV/ASW ratio, Timbre, they all reacted together to any change in the room... People dont realize it because in their non controlled room all these factors work in a non synchronized and non optimal way in an apparent separated way ... Like i already say, even a single straw location can change the sound of a room and in some well prepared conditons it is perfectly audible...I know because i experimented it non stop 2 years in my audio room ... By the way i dont need "mythic" speakers to do the job, only relatively good one... Acoustic is a science which can improve any good speakers, never mind his brand name... But sometimes to increase for example transient and dynamic we must also decrease the electrical noise floor of the System/ room/house... And any speakers, even "mythic" one will need vibrations and resonance control to improve timbre and all other acoustic factors... |
To evaluate a system we need not only some well known recordings but a room adapted to the specific system we want to evaluate if not , how could you know the real potential of the system under evaluation in bad room conditions ? Not the reviewers perspective for sure, who change the gear he listen to every month and who will never bother himself to optimize the gear under evaluation in the best working condition....( it takes months of listening experiments to tune a room to a specfic system) Us customers we are conditioned in a Pavlovian way about gear upgrade and the attention focussing on gear brand name, with NO or VERY FEW BASIC knowledge in audio magazine about the way to optimize what we already own.... They sells gear, they dont inform about the essential... Who will pay their publicity if they will inform us that we can afford high-end sound experience at low cost modulo mechanical, electreical and especially acoustical information ?
---Diminishing returns or/and accelerating returns are subordinated to the OPTIMIZATION PROCESS... ---The optimization process is constituted by the three working dimensions controls : mechanical,electrical and acoustical ... ---The relation between the audio system and an acoustically controlled room reveal how bad system worsen way more and good one improve hugely more...
Evaluating by the weight and the number of internal pieces is nowadays meaningless...Minimal design can mean low noise and each addition of new processors in the design is a trade-off between the speficic associated noise which is introduced and the way it will affect, correct, or degrade the signal... Engineering is an ART based on science....Not on weight... My dac is minimal in parts and weight and stupendous in my acoustically controlled room ....And The Berning ZOTL amplifier for example weight very little... Sometimes less is way better....
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