Horn speakers , high efficiency but not “shouty”

@alexberger 
beautiful set up , great sound.
I am looking for something similar ...
thanks for sharing 

Hi @newtoncr and @phusis ,

Thank you for your good words.

Regards,
Alex.

Are you just looking to horn speakers for the efficiency? Omega speakers are also very efficient and sound great with SETs (I own 4 pairs). 

I own a pair of Rethm Saadhana.  Have a Supratek pre and First Watt SIT3 amp.
Wonderful sound that is easily listened to all day with no fatigue.  They dont use Lowther horns, but rather a house designed horn that I have never noticed to be harsh or 'shouty'.  

Much of the cherished audiophile recordings were mastered using horns the live music you all use as a reference played back on horns. Thinking a wee box or thin panel is even close to what a proper horn can do is just ignorant biased delusion. 

I concur, with johnk.

I needed some hi eff. speakers for my 6 watt Grommes amp.  Found some Klipsch Quartets with crites XO and Ti tweeters.  Not shouty, does sound more like live music than my other setup (4 watt with de Capos).  We listen for hours, no issue with fatigue

I challenge you to A/B your horns with any model of Magnepan speakers and see if you still want the horns. Listen especially to voices and "quiet" instruments.

I've been doing this for several decades now. I like the Maggies if you have the right amp with enough power and decent speaker cables. But they are not as fast or as revealing as my horn system (Classic Audio Loudspeakers model T3.3 with field coil powered drivers for the horns).


Field coils bring speed to any driver that uses them. When you put power through the voice coil of any dynamic driver (and this includes Magnaplanars) the magnetic field sags as the current is increased. Maggies don't sag as much as some other drivers as things are spread out. But its still audible. Field coils allow cone and compression drivers to have the same speed as ESLs and really for the same reason- a power supply is running the motive force.


As far as 'shouty' goes, this is an artifact of distortion. Horns can exhibit it if the throat interface to the mouth of the horn isn't designed properly. These days with computer optimization that really shouldn't be an issue. But the other thing to keep in mind is that older horns are meant to work with amps with a higher output impedance. If used with an amp of lower output impedance it can throw off the crossover point. If the driver starts operating out of band it can make additional distortion. Because the output impedance was highly variable in the old days, older horn systems usually had level controls on the midrange and tweeter to allow you to adjust the speaker to the voltage response of the amplifier. Most people think they were there to adjust to the room but that isn't how it works.

Altec 19

I don’t see horns in either of those two examples. What am I missing?

I’m old school. I have been living with Altec Lansing 604Cs for 44 years. 101db efficiency, 16 ohms, driven by Futterman OTL3s converted to triode (eight General Electric 6LF6 tubes per bloc).

The Tannoys are similar.

Agree w Volti mods for Klipsch.
Mods cost more than the K-horns(used~ ‘70’s vintage) & Worth every penny.
Took a couple of weekends.

Another vote for Charney.  I have been by his place a couple times for a demo and they are special.  I have BD-Design and love them but the Charney will be in my 2nd system... soon.  FYI, I very much like the Voxative driver Charney uses.

I'm a bit surprised that nobody here has yet mentioned early James B Lansing Corner Horn speakers.  These used the earliest and biggest of their famous "potato masher" horns (with diffraction grids) for both midrange and treble.  To my ears the JBL C31's were the most accurate and realistic horn speakers ever made.

@atmasphere --

As far as 'shouty' goes, this is an artifact of distortion. Horns can exhibit it if the throat interface to the mouth of the horn isn't designed properly. These days with computer optimization that really shouldn't be an issue. ...

(just some further thoughts)
Even the latest, whizzbang computer modelled horn that doesn't technically exhibit horn modes, i.e. shouting tendencies, could by virtue of being a horn - with all that entails - produce a sonic outcome that leads some to believe it's "shouty" sounding. The use of the term is definitely loose, and moreover the habitual exposition to a sound character that doesn't closely emulate live sound will easily label that which actually does, not least dynamically, as an outlier; a (more) realistically reproduced trumpet, saxophone or drum set at full(er) tilt will have you wince almost, like a voice 'shouting' forcefully, and may appear "exaggerated" to the uninitiated to whom more stale sounding, low efficiency direct radiating speakers are the norm.

When assessing "quality" we're very much lead on by the power of association and habit, to some simply subjectivity and to-each-their-own, but its more predominant nature is that of excluding true diversity as well as a more established live reference. 

The use of the term is definitely loose, and moreover the habitual exposition to a sound character that doesn't closely emulate live sound will easily label that which actually does, not least dynamically, as an outlier; a (more) realistically reproduced trumpet, saxophone or drum set at full(er) tilt will have you wince almost, like a voice 'shouting' forcefully, and may appear "exaggerated" to the uninitiated to whom more stale sounding, low efficiency direct radiating speakers are the norm.

In my case, 'shouty' refers to sounding 'loud' in an unpleasant manner not related to the music itself. IME when you have all your ducks in a row, a good system will not sound loud even when it is, it will only sound like the music and if that is loud, like a brass fanfare, so be it, but the system does not editorialize.  ESLs can do this as well as a few box systems, but so can horns if properly designed. When measured, the system will be found to be low in higher ordered harmonic generation, free from mechanical resonance brought on by microphonics and no weird frequency response anomalies on axis, with gently rolling response off axis, finally with good total room energy (entirely off axis, which must be absent of any high frequency peaks).


Horns can be very nice when interactions with side walls are going to be hard to avoid if you don't have controlled directivity. This is because side walls can have early reflections which the ear interprets as harshness.

Decided to pull the trigger on Charney audio companion Excalibur speaker with Brian charneys custom 300 b power amp and l3 custom preamp . Thanks everyone for your help in making this choice 

newtoncr, congrats you’ve made a great choice! Which driver are you choosing for your Excalibur?

@rodge827 the voxativ ac-2.6

Very nice...enjoy :-)

I've heard that speaker with the voxativ driver.  It sounded very good.  I think you have a speaker that can go toe to toe with almost anything on the market at any price.

I have placed my order and the down payment now the anxious wait 😊.

@newtoncr --

Interesting choice with the Charney Excalibur's - congrats on your purchase. Please let us know what you think of them once you're ready to share some impressions. 

Heresy IIIs with a well sorted tube festooned amp/preamp...no shout at all. This, however, was NOT the case with the IVs I recently owned although I'm not sure why that was. The IIIs have a completely different horn design which I seem to prefer.

I currently enjoying a set of Symphony   Horns by Auto-tech
My room size is very comparable to yours and these speakers have no issues  filling the room with amazing sound at low to extremely high volumes , without any hint of strain.
My mono blocks are only 20 watts per channel and its plenty of power which is a tremendous advantage if you like amp swapping.
This is the first set of speakers that Im not even looking to upgrade even though I had a chance to get the top model called the Universum MK4 .
As I upgraded my electronics the speakers responded to an amazing level and at that price point I feel these speakers are great value.
One other thing worth mentioning is the fit and finish is truly first class.

I have the similar size room 14' x 22' x 8' my 6 watt SET drives Altec 604E easily.
I'm sure even 2a3 or 45 SET will be enough!
I think the really sensitive horn speakers don't need more power for a such size room.

Dear @newtoncr : You own really good system with top analog rig and I read there what you posted:

""  Best sound I have ever heard, the ayre magico combo is magical and airy 😊.Been through many diff amplifiers and speakers but never have I heard a better combo.  ""

So, you are looking for something better ( I think? ) and just for curiosity: what's wrong with what you own?

A change of transducer always changes the " name of the game " and maybe what you are seen could sounds different but not necessary better and exist " thousands " of transducer alternatives that in true can outperforms what you own today. Just an opinion.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@rauliruegas 
yes my main system is the best I have heard in the last 49 yrs . Heard many systems in diff homes, shows and in company showrooms .
the ayre and magicos are true magic . I love them . Took me nearly 20 years of trying out multiple components before I got to the combo I have .
The Charney speakers with tube pre and power amps built by him will be my second system. I have heard the diff flavor of the horns , they are different,  not better maybe not even as good ( yet to hear a horn system that sounds better than the magicos to me and that’s totally my ears ) . But horns offer something different esp in certain  recordings which I haven’t heard in box speakers or planar speakers. My second system is to fill that void , and like I told Brian Charney they won’t be competing with my main system, but will be complimenting my musical experience in my house . 

Dear @newtoncr : Thank's for your explanation, that's what I imagined. Good luck.

R.

Hi everyone,
I finally received my charneys Excalibur speakers and his 300 b power amp and preamp
based on audio note kits but made with higher quality caps and resistors by brian. 
I have included pics in my system page .
i am not very impressed by the lack of bass and tonal harshness … I will be rolling tubes per Brian’s advice … any other recommendations…

Congrats -- I guess.  Are you referring to the speakers or the 300B amp?  Also, it is hard to make judgements right out of the gate.  Tell us more after at least 50 hours of run time.  

Yes I have been playing them for over a week now, tonal quality hasn’t changed . Ordered tubes from andy bowman vintage tubes per his recommendation and a pair of 300b western electric tubes after reading the review on stereophile. Hope they help time the harshness and clean up the sound. Any other ideas . 

iF Andy can’t help…well….then….. ( i get almost all my tubes from Andy… )
but as others have said give it time…

i have at least 3 systems at any given point, so i can relate when some combination is disappointing against the reference…..

it will make you a much more discerning listener…..and possess a real balanced opinion….priceless…

good luck on your journey…..

newtoncr, With a new amp, preamp, and speakers you will need a lot of run in time. Probably in the 300-500 hour range. You have a lot going on right now that will affect the sound.  Tubes from Andy are a good idea. He knows his stuff and good tubes do make a difference. Tell us a little about your room. Size WDH? Treatments? Flooring? Speaker placement etc....

When I got my Companions it took a few weeks of run in time just for them. I have a basement room where I was able to use an old receiver. Wired the drivers out of phase and had them face each other about a 1/2” apart. Put the Isotek burn in disc on continual play, turned up the volume and let them go for a few weeks. Even after that the drivers were still a little tight and sharp. Then all of a sudden bloom! Be patient it’s worth it! 

Hi @newtoncr,

Which WE300B do you use?
Vintage or reissue?

Regards, 
Alex

@alexberger 
I ordered the reissue , the one reviewed in the latest issue of stereophile. I haven’t got them yet. What’s playing is Chinese tubes that came with the amp .
also waiting for tubes from andy .currently all tubes are Chinese which came with the pre and power amp.
@rodge827 
my room is 12 ft wide and 23 ft long , open in the back. 10ft tall
per Brian’s recommendation the speakers are 12” from the side wall and 18” from the rear wall. 84” between the speakers and 100” to the listening chair .
the floor is carpet , the walls are double drywall with green glue between drywall layers and hollow space packed with roxul .
acoustic treatment for now are a stack of 13” tube traps dead center between the speakers in the front wall and two traps halfway between the speakers and the listening position to reduce cross talk .

I am burning them 24/7 with the Ayre burn in disc 

No proper horn is shouty. Cheap undersized poorly designed horns over a ported box can have issues since midrange is so much more efficient most compromised to make them smaller cheaper. A proper horn is fully front horn loaded to at least 100hz not many like this exist that audiophiles would buy so they opt for small poorly designed horns then go online saying that all horns shout or some such BS.

johnk,
The OP's new speaker is a back loaded horn with a full range river, right?
I never really considered this type of speaker "horns", but I guess they are in their own way. 

No proper horn is shouty.

i would have to disagree w this, based on my experience... i have had good well respected horn speakers, and also heard some very very tip top horn systems, and to me there is still noticeable horn/shouty coloration

i have had good well respected horn speakers, and also heard some very very tip top horn systems

Apparently not the tippy top yet, or something to that effect :)

Many systems can be shouty; this is caused by distortion. You don't need horns for that, just poor setup.


The mark of any good system is you can't tell how loud its playing. It should never sound 'loud'. To that end horns really don't have anything more or less to do with it except that its easier to do with horns since amplifier distortion plays an enormous role in making this work.

I concur with johnk.

Apparently not the tippy top yet, or something to that effect :)

well if we specifically define non shouty horns as ’tippy top’ then i suppose you are correct

over the years i have heard avantgarde duos/trios, sadurnis, klipschorns and cornwalls, tune audio animas, cessaros ... maybe none designed properly or were set up correctly

i have not heard western electric theater horns in a domesticated environment though...

@jjss49 I've found that you have to be careful with the amp that you use on a horn. It must have a clean first watt! If it has distortion issues like higher ordered harmonic generation (a problem with many solid state amps) you can certainly wind up with shouty (although it really won't matter the speaker). A good horn is a very revealing device and you do have to have your ducks in a row to get the best out of them. But OTOH that can be quite rewarding.


And to be clear some horns do have problems! For example the TAD machined wood horns have an artifact caused by an error in the throat design- its got an unpleasant peak at the bottom of its response. But with a bit of careful computer simulation I know of a modified version of that horn (Classic Audio Loudspeakers) that does not have that artifact and so is very smooth and relaxed, yet very fast and detailed. When you have those qualities together that's when you are making progress as they point to low distortion.

Speakerlab 7's - 12", 10", 15" horn and 7" horn. Both horns are plastic. No "bite"! SQ beats any Heresy and Cornwall. Bass goes down below 40 hz. I bought mine from Habitat for $100 + $50 delivery. I can live with the flat black white speckle finish!

One of my relatives is an experienced audiophile in the Midwest and he has one of the massive Klipsch horn speakers.  The sound is super impressive and alive sounding.  He uses very expensive Japanese mono tube amps.  I think Shindo or Wavac.  Like fifteen or twenty grand a set.  It is really a wave of sound coming at you head to toe.  To me it is very exciting but maybe a little exhausting if it is a long listen.

No proper horn is shouty. Cheap undersized poorly designed horns over a ported box can have issues since midrange is so much more efficient most compromised to make them smaller cheaper. A proper horn is fully front horn loaded to at least 100hz not many like this exist that audiophiles would buy so they opt for small poorly designed horns then go online saying that all horns shout or some such BS.

Indeed; all things more or less equal the bigger the midrange horn the less it sounds like a horn (and almost akin to a large panel speaker), although in the lowest octaves horn size - i.e.: length, overall volume and proper/corresponding mouth area - mainly dictates frequency extension and SPL, and so is set according to the desired parameters here. That is to say: in the bass department there's no cheating out with bass horns with regard to the size required in relation to extension (and SPL) needed, although variants of bass horns, like tapped horns, can further maximize the output for a given volume/horn path length in summing the output at the mouth of both the front and back wave of the driver, where a front loaded horn can only take advantage of the driver's front wave.

What's missed with smaller midrange horns more technically is dispersion control in the lower end of their frequency range. Some of them may be able to be high-passed at and sound rather well down to ~500Hz, but dispersion control has flown out the window an octave or more above. Maintaining dispersive pattern (preferably similar to the driver segment covering the range below it) and control at the cross-over that's offered with the big midrange horns isn't trivial sonically speaking. As proposed by you a proper designed and sized midrange horn doesn't sound shouty, as in at all, or what people typically associate with bad sounding horns. Smaller midrange horns, even though they're well designed, generally sound more aimed-at-the-listener, less enveloping and more agitated vs. a larger midrange horn covering the same frequency span, that by comparison sounds more relaxed, physically realistic, dynamic and with a better fill of the sound throughout the listening room. The smaller horn may impress at first with its "lively" imprinting, but it really stands more in the way of the music and ultimately can't hold a candle next to their larger, well designed brethren. 

better fill of the sound throughout the listening room. The smaller horn may impress at first with its "lively" imprinting, but it really stands more in the way of the music and ultimately can't hold a candle next to their larger, well designed brethren.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am sure there is  so much more to my classical  music with a  big well designed, high quality horn system.
Completely blow away my speakers performance for sure. 
I'll keep this in mind for a  down the road project. 
Probably start researching now, see what each lab has to offer. 
For full symphony, its quite likely big horns are the best of the best,,
AS I am now done with the wide band project, at least in the high end designs. 
I plan to swap out my 4 inch wide band for  the bigger brother    6.5 wide band $400/pair. 
This will hold me over til I can snag a  good deal on a  used horn, down the road. 
Good  horns are not found often on the used market. 

I hear shouty just as atmasphere describes it. In stock form my circa mid-late 80's Klipschorns certainly had it, one major infraction was the K-401 mid horn. Exponential horn, metal, rang like a bell, bad throat design, etc. I could have never lived with those mids, timbre anomalies I would describe as shouty. My replacement Volti tractrix horns were one of the most important upgrades I made to Klipschorns, although further improvements were necessary to get natural timbre throughout frequency spectrum. Quite an experience how my Klipshcorns evolved with each modification, so many components amenable to upgrades! And yes, increased loudness shouldn't cause a single bit more stridency, hard to do with horns.

It seems many don't like horn speakers, I get it, but one bad experience doesn't make for an overarching conclusion. Proper horn loudspeaker design and execution, proper room treatments and sympathetic system matching can bring an illusion of live performers in room that's intoxicating. I've been through many types of speakers in over thirty years as audiophile, these Klipschorns have required the most involved system building and modifications yet, ocd has been required. My Klipschorns expose everything, such great efficiency, absolutely requires even a single watt of signal boost to be high quality, every link in audio chain must be optimized.

It seems many don't like horn speakers, I get it, but one bad experience doesn't make for an overarching conclusion. Proper horn loudspeaker design and execution, proper room treatments and sympathetic system matching can bring an illusion of live performers in room that's intoxicating

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm sold on horns as best speaker in full orchestra, 
No doubt, But some of us have limitations,
cash and room size. I'm limited in both areas.
Horns will have to wait  as a  distant project, ~~My last speaker~~
I'm convinced horns is the answer to high fidelity. 

Horns, good, better or best just have a different way of presenting music than direct radiating drivers or panel speakers. They all have their charms. I really connected with horn presentation the first time I heard Khorns.
I can surely understand those who feel differently, or those who value ruler flat measurements. The only invalid opinion is the opinion of someone who hasn't really given them a try and believes a negative opinion without self-verification.

2 weeks after I got my horns and tubes, they have burned in for over 300 hrs.
I have been working on room placement with help of Brian Charney the designer , and art noxon and jordon Goulette of asc . We have traded pics , done articulation and frequency sweeps in room and analysed them .
also have ordered better tubes than stock tubes from andy , of vintage tubes .
my experience to date .
the tubes and horn combination is “dirty “ hopefully the newer tubes will better it .
there is not much deep powerful bass. The vocals are little peaked.
this is in comparison to my ayre , magico Jl audio system tweaked to the nth with room treatment etc . Eg. Listened to Steve Earle at 85 db thru my tubes sounded loud and I had to turn it down . Now listening at 95db thru my ayre, magico and it’s so clean ,  I want to play it even louder lol .