Charles,
One thing I forgot to mention in the Diana Krall example.
After the instrumental introduction to the title track, "When I Look in Your Eyes," Diana enters, singing. She is singing very softly, her mouth is apparently very, very close to the microphone and she is at the lower limits of her vocal range. I always thought that her pitch sounded somewhat wobbly on those opening notes but with the Kit 1, you can hear just how wobbly her pitch is at that moment. It's kind of an odd example, but it did make me smile and does say something about the resolution and musicality of that amplifier. :-) |
Rebbi, if you recall, I also drove the deCapos with my 500 WPC solid state Cary monoblocks and found the 8WPC Frankensteins drove them better. One of the other posters commented that the deCapos are unusually sensitive to amp/speaker synergy. That is consistent with my experience. I think you are right, well designed 300B SETs may be the pinnacle for that particular speaker. It has been a rewarding experience watching you work your way through this process. This hobby is a place where engineering, physics, biology, and psychology all meet. No wonder it such a meandering path. |
Brownsfan,
I suppose it makes some sense, at least intuitively, that the De Capo's would be particularly sensitive to amplifier topology, since the main driver is coupled directly to the amplifier signal. I'm sure there's more to it than that, but, based upon your experiences, my experiences and the fact that Reference 3A recommends one of the Antique Sound Lab 300 B SET amps, there really is some "magic" with that speaker and this kind of amplifier.
So it makes me think that when looking for a speaker for this kind of amp, it makes some sense to look at brands that are not only high-efficiency and flat impedance, but also otherwise designed with single ended operation in mind. Again, I don't know the physics and engineering of this, but there must be other factors involved in designing a speaker specifically to be "SET friendly."
Almarg, feel free to chime in here. :-) |
Brownsfan (Bill),
It's very interesting to note that you, Rebbi, Rob and the speaker's builder cite the terrific results of 300b or SEP with the De Capo. This in spite of the warnings that the speakers demand more power. Well your Cary and Rebbi's Manley met that criteria yet were found to be inferior sounding. Again proving nothing takes the place of actually listening. Bill you mentioned psychology and for some it is a significant barrier to acceptance.
Charles, |
Yes, Charles, I now find myself firmly in the "measurements are useful, but how does it actually SOUND" camp. :-) |
04-30-15: Rebbi
So it makes me think that when looking for a speaker for this kind of amp, it makes some sense to look at brands that are not only high-efficiency and flat impedance, but also otherwise designed with single ended operation in mind. Again, I don't know the physics and engineering of this, but there must be other factors involved in designing a speaker specifically to be "SET friendly."
Almarg, feel free to chime in here. :-) I don't know either, Rebbi. And in the absence of empirical inputs from users and/or the manufacturer, I doubt that it could have been predicted based on its published and measured characteristics that the De Capo would have any particular synergy with SETs (within the maximum volume capability of the combo). Although as you realize the De Capo's relatively benign impedance characteristics at least do not exclude the possibility. Some very speculative guesses, though, as to things that might be contributing factors: 1)Although I haven't seen any frequency response specs or measurements on the Kit1, I would suspect that it has a more limited bandwidth at both ends of the spectrum than most push-pull amps. Perhaps that helps to keep frequencies out of the De Capo that don't have much if any audible significance but that it might not be able to handle comfortably (i.e., without intermodulation or other effects that could result in those frequencies affecting audbily significant frequencies). 2)Perhaps the design of the De Capo is such that it particularly benefits from the enhancement of dynamics that SETs will tend to provide, as Ralph/Atmasphere has explained is a consequence of how their distortion characteristics vary as a function of signal level. 3)As shown in the NRC measurements, the De Capo's impedance has a sharp rise to about 30 ohms in the vicinity of 70 Hz, where a lot of energy is often required. Relative to its rated power capability, a SET will be able to deliver more power into that high impedance than most push-pull amps, especially solid state amps. As I say, though, those are all just speculative guesses as to what might be contributing factors, and I don't think that this particular synergy (within the maximum volume capability of the combo) could be either ruled out or ruled in "a priori." So I agree with the comment by Charles just above. Best regards, -- Al |
Charles,
Believe it or not one was for sale here for less than $600.00. I just missed it! At any rate I am on the hunt. If I must pay full price, that is ok. Beats paying $7,000 plus for the latest Lampizator. I am happy with the MiniMax DAC, likely even more happy if I change Op Amps per Doug Schroeder of Dagogo. |
I must chime in here. I am running 10 DHT watts into my 90db efficient speakers in a 24x18 room with 8 foot ceilings. I sit 7 feet back from the front plane of my speakers and find the combo wonderful. Very dynamic with no hint of distortion, noise or compression at the listening levels I like.
I listen at 75-80 DB and when I get a wild hair up to perhaps 89db weighted average. I have turned it up higher to test and the amp powers my speakers fine.
I was skeptical this combo would work and had been using 300 solid state watts per channel. Well, it is indeed working. My amp is an Ultra Fi Monaco 845 amp that only pushes the tubes to 50-60 percent of their rating. So I think it is a powerful and robust 10 watts. My speakers are 8 ohm and do not drop below 6 ohm I am told. I don't need anymore power. I simply don't.
One must try a combo to know for sure as paper specs can only go so far. Now paper can help you avoid obvious mismatches and one should always start here. |
Hi Bill,
My gut feeling was a successful outcome with your Monaco 845 SET once I learned more about it. I really like the approach of conservative voltage stress on the output tubes backed by a strong power supply. It's good to read that you are so impressed(and happy) with your sound quality using this amplifier.As didiscussed earlier, at your listening levels you're using well under 1 watt of power. Given your modifying expertise have you gone this route yet?
Bill, Rob is very interested in getting the Yamamoto DAC, did you find yours used or buy new as I did? I imagine that the Jupiter capacitors are fully burned in at this point in your Yamamoto.
Charles, |
Rob,,
I paid full retail price for my Yamamoto DAC 5 years ago, it remains one of the very best audio purchases I have ever made.
Charles, |
I purchased my Yamamoto DAC used. They can be purchased new for under $2800 now direct from the builder. The value of the US dollar is very favorable now vs. a few years ago.
The Jupiter cap upgrade and internal silver wire upgrade have now settled in and the sound is fantastic. I love this Dac.
I have yet to mod the 845 amp, but am mapping out a plan of action! |
One more possible contributor to synergy between Rebbi's speakers and SET amplification, adding to the possibilities listed in my previous post: 4)I note that John Atkinson states in his measurements of the older de Capo i version of the speaker that "the speaker's low-frequency tuning is actually a little on the overdamped side." If the same holds true of Rebbi's BE version, its sonics could presumably benefit from the low damping factor of a SET. Best regards, -- Al |
Bill,
I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I already have, sorry. Bill I have a question for you that I will post on my system page regarding the Yamamto if you don't mind.
Charles, |
Al's observations regarding factors that might contribute to a SET amp having synergy with the Decapos specifically make a lot of sense. Given what is known, I suspect many of those things could well be in play together. |
I do not know much about the SET amps specs, but SETs are known for their midrange magic mainly. Since most music occurs in the midrange, excellence there can go a long way if nothing too bad is happening elsewhere. Limited bandwidth in particular is one thing that I believe would work in favor of a SET amp since magic is in the midrange goes a long way. |
I got the Klipsch 280F (2015 design) with Pass Lab amps, it is incredible value. |
Taking it one step further, limited bandwidth would benefit SET sound by rolling off both the lowest and highest frequencies perhaps. The power can go much further with some low end roll off, and not much happens in music at the higher frequencies that we are able to hear typically when younger but likely not able to hear at all anyhow as our ears get older. |
4)I note that John Atkinson states in his measurements of the older de Capo i version of the speaker that "the speaker's low-frequency tuning is actually a little on the overdamped side." If the same holds true of Rebbi's BE version, its sonics could presumably benefit from the low damping factor of a SET. This would make it a good choice for an OTL as well, and no worries about power or bandwidth. |
I have been a Klipsch fan for a long time, owning many other designs, brands and models. Owning several pair of Klipsch models, from (all modified) Lascalas, to Epic CF2s, F3s and KG4.2s, I find them to be quite lifelike, and, they all do well with tubes. Optimum room placement and listener distance makes them a winner, at their price points. And, at current used prices, you have nothing to lose. Not perfect, as nothing is. But, more virtues, and less shortcomings, imo. Mentioned above, previous to me, here. MrD |
Coli and Mrdecibel,
I've thought of Klipsch; the pricing of a lot of their floor-standers is certainly very reasonable by high-end standards. The thing is, I find their line to be so huge and diverse that I can't figure out what to even consider. Amazon carries a ton of Klipsch gear, as does our local Fry's Electronics. |
Rebbi,
What state do you live in? |
05-04-15: Rebbi
Coli and Mrdecibel,
I've thought of Klipsch; the pricing of a lot of their floor-standers is certainly very reasonable by high-end standards. The thing is, I find their line to be so huge and diverse that I can't figure out what to even consider. Amazon carries a ton of Klipsch gear, as does our local Fry's Electronics.
If Klipsch, my suggestion is to look on Craigslist for their Heritage line of speakers. That's how I got a used pair of Klipschorns. That was about 5 speakers ago for me. When I think of them I still feel a twinge in my back from when I sold them and we loaded them in the guy's truck (and a ringing in my ear from that squawker horn). |
Roxy,
Texas, not far from Sebrof. |
Reb, Here you go. Home Grown Hi eff speakers for SETVery cool homegrown speakers and interesting summary by the owner. Custom horns along these lines are teh best I have heard off SET and I would agree the dynamics are off teh chart with speakers like these balanced out just right. Its a delicate balance though. I have not heard any without some extra edge as a result which is something some may like and others not so much. |
Food for thought . Klipsch now with Volti upgrades latter. |
Rebbi, I don't know why I thought you lived in NY? It must be pretty hot in TX by now. |
JWM,
Not so much hot as "steamy." Been getting a lot of rain here and it's been really humid. Good for us because we've been in a drought, but the mosquito situation this summer is going to be intense, I think. :-/ |
A must hear would be the Teresonic Ingenium :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCxVnL4kx-k
(be sure to watch in 720p for better sound quality) |
Can any of you folks attest to the sonic differences between the various Tekton Lore flavors:
Lore Reference
Lore 2.0
Lore
M-Lore
S-Lore
I had the opportunity to borrow a pair of the Lore Reference for about a week and run it in my own system, so now I have a pretty good idea how it sounds. What I'm trying to figure out is how all the different iterations of the Lore differ from one another, hence my question here. I've corresponded with Eric about this a few times but would still love the opinions of users who've heard some of these different speakers side by side. |
Hi Rebbi,
How were the Lores in comparison to the DeCapo with your SET? Did the higher efficiency of the Lore matter?
Charles, |
Charles,
Well, after three years of ownership, my De Capo's are now up for sale on Audiogon (and elsewhere)!
The Lore Reference is a VERY different speaker than the De Capo. It's not that the De Capo doesn't sound fabulous with the Kit 1 - it does, especially since I added the vintage 6SN7 and a Signal Cable power cord (thanks to Roxy and Almarg for those tips!)
The De Capo's are so much about finesse - astonishing imaging, coherence, resolution, etc. The Lore Reference is more about dynamics and expansiveness. With the Lore Reference, the Kit 1 sounds more relaxed and it plays far "bigger" than 8 watts! Really, I have discovered that a higher efficiency speaker makes the Kit 1 sound like a monster!
:-D
And of course, the Lore Reference digs deeper than the De Capo (although for its size, the De Capo is no slouch in that department, either), making music sound more fleshed out. I must say that I was surprised and impressed at how well controlled the bass on the Lore Ref was. Interestingly, it uses a smaller, Eminence designed, 8-inch main driver, as opposed to the big, bass guitar driver on the standard Lore and Lore 2.0.
Both speakers throw a large soundstage, but of a different quality. The Lore Reference is more room filling, the De Capo more holographic. I will say that I found the Lore Ref's imaging a little vague compared to the De Capo, but that may be a placement fine tuning thing, too.
So while I'm not 100% sure that I'm going with Tekton, I am convinced that there are benefits to moving on to a substantially more efficient and easy to drive speaker. I am considering a number of options, depending upon what I get for the sale of the De Capo's.
Interestingly, the fellow who lent me the Lore Ref's felt that, in contrast to Eric at Tekton, the Lore or Lore 2.0 would be too large for my room. Hmm...
I'll keep y'all posted!
By the way, if any of you have heard the various flavors of the Lore side by side and can comment on similarities and differences, I'd love to hear them, because Tekton's web site isn't much help in this regard. At last count, you have a choice of:
Lore
Lore 2.0
M-Lore
S-Lore
Lore Reference |
Rebbi, Today some older version AN-e's came up for sale here on Agon. Very good price and the AN stands are included. By this point you may have written AN speakers off of your list but wanted to bring them to your attention.
On another more aspirational note there are some Coincident Pure Reference speakers for sale here as well. I've heard these and they are wonderful. They need some real space (more than I have) to breath but should pretty great with a 300b amp.
Regards-Jet |
Jet,
Thank you very much for the tip. Those Audio Note speakers look like a great deal. But I have to wait until my De Capo's sell to purchase anything else, and I would guess that those Audio Notes will be gone by then. :-(
But I will definitely keep an eye on them!
As for the Coincident's, yes, I would say that they are VERY aspirational. ;-) |
Get the right speaker cables and interconnects and there will nothing vague about imaging. In my system when I borrowed my brother DeCapo, the imaging wasn't any less in the Tekton in absolute terms, yet it slayed the DeCapo in almost every other parameter. All rooms are different. Tubes, interconnect, speaker wires all make difference. And of course we all differ in how we like music presented, what we value most/least. When it comes to presentation of the music I'm a timbral listener, the tone, natural, organic flow, the harmonic rightness, texture, fullness, weight, mean more to me than spotlight imaging. In real life music that spotlight imaging doesn't exist. And when it comes to beer budgets with Champange tastes the Tektons are a remarkable feat. The reviewer in Stereotimes stated that the Tekton Reference was kissing cousins to the DeVore 0/96 in sound, they cost $12,000, the Tekton Reference $799 in its Plain Jane/beer budget form, or you could upgrade the veneer and get better capacitors for a few hundred more.
When I get the Franks from Coincident I 'm going to pause long and hard about speaker match. I've listened now to the DeVore 0/96 and O/93, $12,000 and $8,000 respectively, and I know now from personal experience (not in my room), the Tekton gives you 95% of same. I also know AN/Snell which I've owned in past, same comment as above. The New Omega Alnico sounds intriguing at about $3,000 plus. Rabbi, what's the budget? People keep recommending speakers, even used, that seem to exceed what you want to spend...best, Rob. |
Generally with SETs if you really want to hear what the amp does (where the 'magic' is) its important that you don't push it past about 20-25% of full power.
For this reason you usually need a really efficient speaker to show the amp off. In the case of a 300b-based amplifier, this means you need to get good sound pressures with only about 2 watts. This requires a high efficiency loudspeaker. FWIW, Coincident does not make a speaker with the efficiency required, especially in a larger room.
This is not to say that such a combo will not make sound- it will- but it will not show off either the capabilities of the amp nor those of the speaker. You simply need more power than a single 300b (or even a pair) can provide. |
Atmasphere,
Rebbi's room is about 11x12, my office system, 14x16. Believe me, even true 92db, 8ohm, no problem. My 8 watt Coincident Dynamo is sublime with my 95db or 98db Lores depending on model. How loud do you listen? I generally like about 80db, sometime louder, never a problem. I could't listen much louder in a sustained way without ruining my ears. I really loved the Gizmo and OTL, but even he eventually went The Big Tannoy with 300B. Best Rob |
Hi Rob,
You asked the pertinent question, how loud do you listen?
My Coincident Total Eclipse II are 94 db at 14 ohms. I initially drove them with my 100 watt push pull (60 watt in triode) KT 88/6550 tubes. This was a really good sounding match. You know what? The 8 watt 300b SET is even better sounding with these speakers. The SET relegated the higher power amp into the inactive components closet! The bigger amplifier can ultimately play louder but this is irrelevant. I would never listen at the levels high enough for this supposed advantage to materialize. The 8 watt amp is more than enough and after 6 years of blissful listening I appreciate this amplifier more than ever.
I listen at SPL of 75-85 db c weighted, this is plenty of volume for my needs. I on rare occasions listen at 95-100 db and even then the sound remains composed and un strained. The SET is better in virtually all musical parameters that matter most to me. Rob are priorities seem the same. My experience is that a good quality lower powered amp will drive 92-95 db speakers wonderfully. It's a question of desired volume level, room size, sonic/musical priorities etc. Rebbi you'll do very well with your current 8 watt SET IMHO. The realism and naturalness of music reproduction is better with the SET than the higher power push pull amplifier.
Charles, |
From Jeff Day Wordpress Blog, as Reviewer for Posive Feedback/6moons his listening bias which exactly matches my own:
I thought it might be handy for those following my writing at Positive Feedback Online to know what my listening biases are to aid you in interpreting and decoding my reviews. Just to alert you, my listening perspective is somewhat of a minority opinion in the Hi-Fi community of North America, but will be more familiar to those listeners in Turkey, Africa, and Japan, who tend to be more familiar with timbral ways of listening. My hierarchy of importance is aligned more closely to how well a Hi-Fi rig plays the musical content of recordings (I know, it’s a heretical concept), rather than how it ‘sounds’ in the more traditional audiophile ‘sonic’ sense.
As a result of my being drawn towards the musical content of recordings, I tend to be a bit more of a timbral listener than is typical for a lot of Westerners, meaning that the reproduction of the textures, colors, and tones & overtones in the music are really important to me. To this end I look for timbral realism at the band level (the band’s signature ‘sound’) and at the individual instrument level (the unique ‘voices’ of instruments). I want them to sound recognizably like themselves in tone and texture, so that their full tone color can develop, which I think helps lend a feeling of beauty and expressiveness to the music. I like the melody (the tune you ‘whistle while you work’), harmony (treble & bass accompaniments to the melody) and rhythm (the steady beat that determines the tempo) to have a life-like flow and connectedness in how the musicians interact—just like in real life. I want dynamics (variations in loudness) to evoke that which I hear in life for an emotional connection to the melody and rhythm. For loudness I like my music playback to be similar to live loudness levels, which for the kind of music I listen to the most, jazz, usually means 80 dB or louder. Finally, I want tempo portrayed so that both the mood and speed of the music are conveyed through it, just like it is with music in real life.
I consider the sonic performance of a Hi-Fi rig on the non-musical artifacts of the recording process to be of value, but of less importance to me than the performance on the musical content of recordings (as above). So things like transparency (being able to ‘see’ into the recording), soundstage (the three dimensions of the recorded space in width, height and depth), soundspace (the acoustic ‘space’ of the soundstage), and imaging (the feeling of solidity and localization of instruments & musicians on the soundstage) are important to me, but they are not my primary focus – the musical content is.
So I like my cake (the musical content of recordings) with a little frosting (the sonic artifacts of the recording process) for a balanced taste treat. Too much frosting and not enough cake puts me off. So that’s me, and you might be different, but at least now you know how.
Share this: |
Rob,
My budget is whatever I can get for the De Capo's! (Seriously.) I've got nothing else to throw at this other than what they sell for. Now if someone wants the stands, too, that may help. They're the Osiris stands by the long defunct Audionics. Probably one of the best 24" stands ever made. So if I get lucky, I'm looking at between $1700 and $2000, give or take.
My room dimensions, FWIW, are actually about 16 x 13 x 8, but due to a slightly odd shape at one end and placement of furniture (it doubles as a guest bedroom) I only have about 11 feet of the long wall to play with. I sit about 9 feet from my ears to the front plane of the speakers. Maybe that makes things clearer.
I don't listen at very loud levels, especially for extended periods. |
|
Charles,
You are right on.
As you can see from my post from Jeff Day Blog what my values are. In that spirit I want to pass along some other info that Day wrote about. While doing a Review of the SPEC SS Integrated for Positive Feedback, build by a Japanese 300B aficionado, Yazaki-san, Yazaki-san suggested to Day that he try NOS Western Electic 16ga stranded tin copper wire for speaker wire on Day's Tannoy Westminster Royals ($1.39 foot) as well as Belden 8402 microphone cable as interconnect (about $3.25 a foot) and to terminate them with Swichcraft SWC 3502AAU RCA, which Day did with great success. He had industry friends over for a shootout between this stuff and Sablon. 2 voted Sablon, 2 voted WE and Belden, Day said equal but different presentation. Reading between the lines and subsequent posts later I think he gives slight nod to Sablon. Yazaki-san has been using this combo for about 10 years and compares the sound to the ancient NOS 40s 274b tube, not the later iteration. Yazaki-san calls it an artistic tube incorporating all the values I mentioned above in "Listening Values". With the Coincident Dynamo I changed out my PS Audio Statement/Kimber 8TC/Silnote speaker cables as well as Goertz silver/Kimber Hero/Silnote interconnect and was floored. Of course, not many here believe me I suspect. But about 600 folks on Day Blog/Cable Asylum/Decware site seem to be buying this We and Belden. I only heard one person grumble, then after more break-in he became a ”believer”. Best, Rob |
Rebbi,
You read the Audiogon thread Zu Omen vs Lore, it came out overwhelmingly for Lore. But as always trust your own ears in your environment . Wishing you the best. Rob |
Rob,
That is the beauty of constructing and developing your home audio system, it is what sounds best to your ears and not to others. There are no gurus when it comes to deciding what suits you best, this is something we all must decide for ourselves. My push pull amp has good tone, timber, harmonics and dynamics, in fact very good. The fact of the matter is as soon as I inserted the SET into the system, its superior sound and presentation was indisputable in my opinion. People can tout power all they want and if that works for them and is the better solution then that is fine for them obviously. In terms of emotional engagement, organic/natural
reproduction and purity of tone the SET amplifier has been consistently
superior in my listening experience. Other's mileage may and will vary.
Charles, |
Rob,
I promise I'm not dithering on all these speaker possibilities just to aggravate you. ;-)
Yes, absolutely, I have read the Zu vs. Tekton thread. Thing is, the Omen Mk. II is just out, and that's two iterations removed from the version being discussed on that thread, IIRC. What's tempting is that Zu offers a 60 day trial (like Tekton) and will pay for return shipping with no restocking fee if you're not happy. I don't know of anybody else who's doing that.
The other thing that got me thinking about Zu is that a reviewer who hangs out on Audio Asylum and the Steve Hoffman Forums mentioned that he has never cared for any Zu speaker until he heard the latest version of the Omen Def, which he loved. That, too, got my attention. |
Rebbi,
Believe me when I say you are not aggravating me in the least. I'm actually chuckling a little bit thinking, poor Rebbi, he has a case of audio nervosa. Again, as Charles stated, ultimately you trust your own ears in your environment. I, like many here are attempting to be helpful due to our experience. How much does the new Zu cost? Just curios, I'll look them up, no ax to grind, many people like them very much. I don't so much. So, right now more than a half dozen positive in depth reviews plus personal testimony from a number of Agon members, plus you heard the Tekton Reference and Katz for yourself, yet one reviewer on Audio Ayslum liked the new Zu, that got your attention? |
Yikes!!! $3,600 for the Zu Omen Def MKII. Here I thought we were discussing speakers for less than what you could get for the DeCapo and have some $$$ left over for some decent cables. OK, I promise to stop trying so hard to get you great value speakers that play in the ballpark with many of the costly big boys. Same goes for the wiring.
Thanks for all your info on the AN Kit-1, my wife and I will build it based on your blog and other stellar reports, hook them up to the $1,000 Tekton Lore and never look back. Happy hunting. Best Rob |
No, the Omen Mk. II, not the Omen Def!!! The Omen Mk. II retails for $1800 but they've extended the Newport show price of $1500 for a bit. Sorry I confused you with the Omen Def reference. |
Well, still about double the cost of the Tekton Lore Reference. I sincerely doubt you'll get double the value sound-wise, likely less, but at any rate, good luck in your endeavor. Best, Rob |
There's something incredibly off-putting on the Tekton website. Go with Zu. |
Drubin,
What would that be? |
