High value, high efficiency speakers for SET amps

Hey Map those MHDT units are musical if not the last word in detail, they get tone right. Better than the other way around. The Havana was my favorite before I purchased a Modwright Oppo, it was just so enjoyable and engaging contrary to some of the others with greater detail maybe but always something distracting and ultimately irritating, one of them became unlistenable. I've been out of the budget DAC game for a few years so don't have a clue as to how things have changed, I expect quite a bit but really it always comes down to how a given component is going to work in a given set-up, there are seemingly few absolutes.

Tube I'd agree with your assessment of the mhdt dacs. Both I own share the same positive traits though one is tube and sensitive to tube rolling and the SS and just darn good as it is. Either sounds similarly excellent with most any good quality source I've used over the years and I've used quite a few with both always with great success. I used to covet dcs gear. That is my reference for how good digital can sound. I'm not saying the mhdts are as good as dcs but whatever the difference that might exist I find it does not matter to me. These things just make good music! The enjoy the sound review from a few years back nailed it exactly I have found.

Earlier on in the thread, someone had mentioned Spatial. If you don't know, Clayton Shaw founded Spatial to continue to develop open baffle, controlled directivity speakers after leaving Emerald Physics. His latest, which debuted at THE Show in Newport, is the Spatial M3. It is rated at 94 dB efficient, goes down to 32 Hz, and has been getting (like the rest of the Spatial lineup) rave reviews from the press. The price is $1499 plus shipping (which, at 75 lb. per side, isn't cheap). See here. He has links to the reviews, too.
Interesting!
Clayton says they sound great with a 300B SET but you'd want to use the 4 Ohm taps on an amp, which, in the case of the Kit 1, would require some trivial rewiring.

I can't see a moderate size and cost open baffle design working particularly well from an efficiency perspective with a low power amp. The box size in conjunction with drivers is what delivers extended bass efficiently. Those drivers would have to outperform most any others similar by a wide margin to do that which seems unlikely.

But you never know. Open baffle has its charms otehrwise much like a SET does, so I suppose again its more a matter of what is valued most and what tradeoffs will be made on a limited budget.

Of course I have not heard them. They just might be the cat's meow. There is no substitution for extended auditions in a case like this.

Maybe the two 15" woofs are enough to do the trick in lieu of an enclosure. The money goes into the large drivers rather than cabinetry I suppose. Might work if the whole design is executed well, especially in a smaller room.

"Sensitivity: 95dB - averaged across 200Hz to 5kHz at 1M - on axis"

Efficiency down to 200hz is not that hard and not that meaningful IMHO. The bass is where it becomes hard to maintain efficiency levels, exponentially so as the frequency decreases. Most likely drops off a lot below 200 hz. Measurements done well would tell. Might still work well off a SET in a smaller room. How much meat on the bones would be my main question.

Also 4 ohm nominal impedance rating. that alone is a red flag for must tube amps, much less a SET. I'd pass on this one.

Rebbi,thanks for you interest in Eff LS. I am speaker
builder and after long time working in this field i will
try to explain my point of vision .All full range
drivers get negative draw back , first whizzer cone
coloration, we are supply are loudspeakers with
drivers with Whizzer cone removed, but problem still'
after 2000-3000 Hz Freg response still coming up
and get up to 10 db in 10000 Hz, make sound very course
and unpleasant. is very good to say------- No crossover, but only apply complicate crossover we can flattering FR.
Very weak bass we can fix to add subwoofer but above
mention problem we solved by apply crossover

I still think some older Klipsch, with some mods, are the way to go. I still enjoy my modded Lascala's, in 1 room, and my modded CF 2's, in another. Musically, more right, than wrong.

As mentioned prior Klipsch in general is a very good place to look for value with higher efficiency affordable speakers.

Fact is Klipsch has been around a long time in both home and pro audio. Almost as long as there have been tube amps for home audio. The vintage stuff in particular was designed to run off lower power tube amps of the day and was the basis of their success back then. Must have done something right in that area.

If I had the room I would want to try Klipsch Cornwall. Wonder how they would sound with 8 watts.

The Klipsch Cornwalls, La Scallas, Fortes, and for a speaker with a smaller footprint the Klipsch KLF-20s sound wonderful with my 6 watt per channel SET amplifier.

These speakers can be upgraded with lots of good advice at the Klipsch Forum and the Audio Kharma forum.

I have found Morry James Campbell's advice to be excellent in improving these speakers.

My modified KLF -20s have pinpoint imaging, expansive sound staging but with the important dynamics to make the music feel alive.

Jetrexpro,
I'm with you. I almost forgot how good these speakers are. I haven't listened to them in about 15 years; but you know, I remember them sounding really good with very low watts, so I You Tubed them and sure enough, they were really excellent with AN and other tubed gear. Only $2,000 grand new, about 102db, 8 ohm, gets down to 30hz, very live and dynamic, yet still warm. Sounded a bit like Tannoy Turnberry. I think a lot of people would be happy rediscovering these classics. I might change some of my direction myself. Jet, nice of you to bring this speaker up, it is well worth consideration at a astoundingly good price new. Older models can be had In the high hundreds. Best, Rob

David,
Thank you for pointing the direction for some mods to improve them further, not that there is much more needed, they sound very good as they are.

I have never heard the Cornwalls but just looking at them they look like they have gobs of presence and musicality and the price for a used pair is ridiculously low.

Rob, agree with you, seems like they were made for the AN Kit 1 :)

You guys are making me want to check out Klipsch! :-)

For what it's worth, Brian of ANK is a big fan of pairing the Kit 1 with vintage speakers from the '80's like Altec, etc.

My only problem with going the vintage route is that a lot of the suitable speakers of that era are physically too huge for my spacecraft and would cost a fortune to ship (I'm talking Cornwall's, La Scala's, Altec 19's, etc.).

Now Heresy's might work and I know of some for sale locally that I'm wondering if the seller would let me demo at home.

Fwiw I have limited mileage with klipsch but the times I have spent with them always left a smile on my face and made me take notice. One should almost feel compelled to give a tried and true potential high value brand like that a fair go first before going more esoteric. Kind of like the OHM Acoustics of high efficiency horn designs. 😉

I've yet to hear a set achieve top level performance at higher volume levels without a horn or two in the equation for the highest possible efficiency.

Some good info in the "good affordable horns" thread Started here a few years back.

One of the main advantages of the better Klipsch horn designs is the dynamics, which, importantly for me, hold up very well at low volumes.
I have owned the KHorns in the 70's, the Cornwalls in the 90's and now the Epic CF- 4. all very good at "serving the music" as some say, while not being hyper-critically perfect in any way. It's really hard to overestimate the importance of wide dynamic range until you have lived with it and then lived with speakers that lack wide dynamic range. If it was not for the Epics, I would probably still have one of the 2 Spendor models I owned, because they are beautiful to listen to as well, and very truthful in their own way, but I did become a little dissatisfied with their relatively average dynamics. They were actually about as dynamic as most other cone speakers I've owned, but not up to horn standards.
One problem that a newcomer will encounter when researching Klipsch is the world of crossover, cabinet and driver changes/upgrades that are offered and strongly recommended. I find many sites that make you feel that if you don't change the speaker beyond recognition, you are not going to achieve good sound. Not true. I like to tweak, but some of these models sound great as they are if you can't afford to heavily modify them. It's one of those occasions when reading too much and knowing too little can leave you feeling confused and insecure.
I would like to do some crossover, wire and cabinet mods to my CF-4's, but with the few things I have done, which isn't much, they are still the best overall speakers I have ever owned, (not heard) and I've owned some nice ones.
Rebbi, give them a try if you can. I think you will discover something very different than what you are accustomed to. Whether or not you like it only you can say.
While I'm addressing you (as well as other members), I have found a new amp tweak for you to spend your hard earned money on. I found an ad here on Audiogon for the Cerious Technologies Nano Reference power cord, originally $500.00, now 149.00 for a 5 foot cord. I know you had been considering a cord upgrade, and I was using the top line Pangea, which I liked, although I knew there were better cords.
Well, it turns out that Robert Grost, former founder of Unity Audio, owns the company, and lives near me here in AZ. He offered to let me try the cable on trial, and I had my doubts, but the technology had interested me for years. By that evening, I told him to cash the check. The cable is excellent. More quiet, refined and dimensional than the Pangea...at a giveaway price. I'm very happy with it.
Anyway,it's kind of nice to hear a few members speaking well of Klipsch for a change. I know that it has been very popular over the years to call them brash and honky, sometimes by people who I don't think were even familiar with them, and other times by people who were using the wrong sources and amps. Make no mistake...they will reveal.

Roxy,
Great to hear from you.
I did pick up a Magic Power Cord by Signal Cable (Almarg had recommended these) for my Kit 1, used, from a local audiophile. I like it a lot, but I'm intrigued by your impressions of the Nano Reference. I'll check it out.
As for Klipsch, sure, I’m intrigued. I find their current line confusing - there are so many models and I have heard online (which is worth the paper it's printed on, admittedly) that their newer, mass market stuff isn't as good as the vintage, Made In USA stuff.
Davidpritchard:
Thank you so much for chiming in!! The KLF-20 looks like a winner - a slimmer tower would fit in my room much better than a massive, squat floor-stander. And I've seen KLF-20's for sale on the 'net. The challenge is as I posted above: these things are heavy, few sellers have the original boxes, and thus the sellers aren't willing to ship them. But I'll definitely keep my eye out!

And what about the Heresy, paired with a sub, maybe? What do your Klipsch-o-philes think of the Heresy?

Although I love my Lascalas, I also, very much, enjoy my Epic CF2s (which to me, are the best of the 4 Epic models ). To each his own. These two Klipsch products are quite different designs, and different sounding (even after modding them), but, they both have the ability to convey "close to live". The KLF series, ime, has box resonance issues, which travels to the front panel and drivers, that unless treated properly, are a bit dirty to listen to. My Lascalas had that problem, but, no more. The Epic cabinets are well designed. Keep in mind, the louder you listen, the box resonances become worse. Although I have owned, and, am very familiar with the Heresy, I never took to them. I believe, the air suspension principal, is the culprit. I have a friend, who's Heresys I modded, and, he loves them. He dreams of my Lascalas. He is a musician, and, might not be an audiophile per say, but he understands what they do well. Interesting that I am not part of the Klipsch forum. But, I am a diehard Klipsch fan, for many years, of many of their models. I have always said, they do more right, than wrong, allowing me to "get into" the music. MrD.

Like a SET, Klipsh or any HE speaker are a unique breed and is not likely to sound its best with the same gear as thw more typical modern speaker fare.

Its all about getting good synergy/performance to start with and tweaking the details from there. Many different recipes for this. The ones for unique breeds like SETs and HE speakers will also be unique. So I do not pay any attention to those who merely plop a Heresy into their existing system and expect excellent results. Like a good sports team, you have to identify your "star performers" whatever those are and build around those accordingly over time until you hit the bullseye.

Doing a survey of SET speaker options on the blog. Have a look.

I have my STAX SR84 phones up for sale. If they don't sell, I envision keeping them for use with a SET amp someday.

Here are the specs:

Specifications Earspeaker SR-80
Type Electret/push-pull
Frequency Response 25--25,000Hz

Impedance 150k ohms/10,000Hz
Sensitivity 95dB/100v rms input
Maximum Output Sound Level 110dB

Continuous Maximum Input 5W(lkHz)
Momentary Maximum Input 30W(lkHz)
Frequency Response 10~30,000Hz( ± 2.5dB)
Distortion Less than 0.02% THD(lkHz/1W)

Everybody,
I know this is a bit of an odd place to post this, but since I have spent so much time here over the years conversing with so many of you, I thought I'd just share the sad news that my mom passed away last weekend. She was 92 years old and had Alzheimer's disease. She was married to my dad for 73 years. She was funny, bright, loving, musical and a great baker. She also put in thousands of hours of time visiting hospital patients as a trained pastoral care volunteer.
Her memory is a blessing to all of us.
I will say that, for all the time we spend discussing this hobby of ours, a loss like this reminds you of what's really most important, and it's not speakers and power cords.
Do hug the people you love and tell them you love them!

Hi Reb,
My sincere condolences. I lost my Mother 10 years ago, and it's a left a void that can never be filled. That said, I have countless priceless memories. I'm sure that you do as well. Yes, getting older and experiencing loss certainly gives perspective.
John

Rebbi,
My parents died a few years ago and I think about them very often, so many memories. Your mother had a very long and productive life. You and your family have my sympathy.
Charles,

Rebbi,

She sounds like a very special person. I am very sorry for your loss and hope God brings your through this life event.

Best wishes,

Shakey

Thanks, everyone.

My sincerest condolences as well, Rebbi. And thanks for the beautifully put reminder about what really matters in life.

Best,
-- Al

Reb, so sorry to hear that. My most heatrtfelt condolences for you.

On the bright side, sounds like she was a marvelous person and mother, and lived a long a productive life. As I'm sure you know but may have not experienced, I'm sure, the spirit of our deceased loved ones remain with us forever. My parents both died in their 70s when I was quite young. But the good news it seems is that their spirit continues to guide and provide us solace no matter what. I'm sure you will find this to be the case as well.

Rebbi,
My wife and I send our sincere condolences to you and your family. Your Mom was a wonderful person as you described her. And, thank you for reminding all of us what values are important. I'm going to give all the family members a huge hug today. Best.

Condolences Rebbie. May you and your family be at peace.

My condolences to you, and your family. I, too, just lost my dad, at 91. My mom, is in a place, being taken care of, with Alzheimer's. They were together for 68 years, and, she, amazingly, knows, he is no longer with her. I feel your loss, and pain. And yes, it does put things into perspective, as to, what is most important, in our lives.

You have your priorities in order, Rebbi.
Please accept my condolences.

Respectfully,
Sam

My condolences and may peace be with you and your loved ones during this time of loss.

Hi Rebbi,
You have many good friends here. The fact that you shared this here shows us that you are a good friend to us.
I have lost both mine and took care of my Mom 24hrs a day up to the minute she passed.
Faith makes the life cycle easier to accept. We are with you.

I cannot express how comforting your words and kind good wishes are. This time of loss and grieving is simultaneously very painful and very beautiful. Blessings to all of you.

I have posted the final installment in my blog series on SET friendly speakers, this one on the do-it-yourself scene. Feel free to check it out.

Rebbi, Both of my parents have fallen victim to AD. Mercifully, my Dad passed 2 years ago. My Mom survives. It is hard watching those you love and respect decline and pass. Take your time and morn. Your friends will still be here when the time is right. May the Lord bless you and keep you!

So here's an interesting development:
A few months ago, I got a call from John "Fritz" Heiler of Fritz Speakers in L.A. He and I have spoken on the phone from time to time over the years, starting way back when I had Merlin TSM's.
Anyway, he said that he often demo's his new Carbon 7 SE's at shows with a very pricey 300B SET amp, and he wanted to send me a pair of these monitors for review and to see how they performed with my ANK Kit 1. I was skeptical, given that the Carbon 7 SE is rated at a mere 88 dB sensitivity, but Fritz assured me that this was a very conservative rating and reiterated his offer. I agreed and have been living with the Carbon 7 SE's mated to the Kit 1 for about 3 weeks. I'm working on a review and will post it soon on the blog. Should make for some fun reading... ;-)

Brownsfan,
Thank you so much for the kind thoughts - they mean a lot to me!

They (Fritz carbon 7 SEs)may sound different and even quite lovely (have not heard) but based on size and specs will be very surprised if these can inherently outperform even the Decapos off just a few watts, particularly in the bass, at higher volumes in particular.

Not a match made in heaven at least on paper, but you never know how things will sound exactly until you try. Could still be the cat's meow at modest volumes in particular.

The Carbon 7 SE review is up, see here.

REb, did you sell the Decapos? Are you without speakers still at this point?

Map,
Yes, I sold the De Capo's over the summer. I'm currently auditioning and breaking in something new. I'll post again when I find a match I'm happy with!

Rebbi, et al,
Sorry to hear about the passing of your loved ones.
I just got back on this thread and started to catch up.
Carry on and Namaste'

Lak,

:-D

Thank you.